Small thing that annoys me -- am I the only one?

[Captain Keen]

One thing I've noticed that always annoys me in wads is when monsters just appear out of nowhere. No teleportation, no platform, they just appear when you cross a certain threshold. As far as I can remember, this never happened in any of the iwads.

 

Why is this so common in wads? Is it to surprise the player? I feel like teleportation would work the same way. Or is it just a quirk of mapping because it saves time?

[head_cannon]

What you're seeing is a mapping trick that causes sectors to instantly snap into their new position instead of moving up or down as they normally do. It was discovered quite early into the game's existence: If you've played E4M7, you've seen it happen with the doors leading to the south end of the map.

 

In this case, monsters are stored in pits below (the walls of those pits are untextured, so the game floodfills the floor texture in and you don't see them), and the walkover trigger raises those sectors up to normal height and starts the fight.

 

While I still consider it unsporting, I actually consider it better than the same trigger opening up offscreen teleport closets. Firstly, the player gets to hear the individual wake-up sounds and know exactly what's attacking them instead of it all being the same uniform tele-static sound. Secondly, monsters that wake up give the player an 8-tic grace period before they begin attacking in order to say "Watch out! Defend yourself!", and that courtesy is much appreciated when the combat encounter is such a sucker-punch.

[Captain Keen]

5 minutes ago, head_cannon said:

If you've played E4M7, you've seen it happen with the doors leading to the south end of the map.

 

Oh, you're absolutely right! Good catch.

 

5 minutes ago, head_cannon said:

While I still consider it unsporting, I actually consider it better than the same trigger opening up offscreen teleport closets.

 

Fair enough. I guess partly what I don't like -- and yes this WILL sound silly -- is it breaks the immersion for me a bit. Like, when they teleport in, that makes sense for the in world battle that's happening. When a lift reveals monsters, even if they come from under the water, it still gives a sense that they were hidden and waiting. But when they just appear out of nowhere it reminds me that I'm playing a game. I know, I know, part of what makes Doom great is that it is so gamey and not trying to be realistic! Maybe you're right, I just think it's unsporting... it's definitely killed me a few times.

[dmdr]

I've used this trick a lot since it gives me, the mapper, more control over what appears where, and when. Vanilla teleclosets rely on the monsters walking over a line so you quite often get situations where monsters will tele in well after everybody else does which can be annoying, and you've got to have at least a basic understanding of the game's AI to get them to work at all reliably. Meanwhile popup monsters just need an untextured sector and a type 19 linedef and you're off to the races (Boom has the best of both worlds with conveyor belt teleclosets but they're still a bit harder to set up than popup monsters).

 

One underappreciated element of popup closets is you can also use them to popup items -- see my & DoomRO's map in DBP24, for example -- which is pretty cool if you want to have a hub area without frontloading the player with too much stuff.

[DavitW]

If you're talking about popup monsters. Then I agree, they are wicked lame.

[roadworx]

yeah, like others have said, those are referred to as "popup monsters". if it's doing it in your face, then it's typically really damn annoying, agreed. it's a cheap way of surprising the player, though i will say that the mechanic that's actually used to do them can be used pretty well in many other ways. i've personally used it (in maps that i eventually scrapped, lol) to repopulate areas without giving it away via the teleport sound. you can do it with items as well, which can be fun.

[Astronomical]

10 hours ago, Captain Keen said:

this never happened in any of the iwads.

Plutonia used the instant lifts a few times, especially to raise chaingunners if I remember correctly.

[ZethXM]

Depends how they're used, like most stuff.  On paper, it's the same concept as a monster closet, a teleport ambush, a monster rising from the ground, or any other trap:  I see unexplored, neutral ground, I move in, monsters ambush me suddenly from somewhere.  What makes popup monsters feel shitty, I think, is it somehow feels like I'm supposed to be the idiot for not seeing them, since they aren't arriving from anywhere diegetically.  They're just suddenly... there, in the place I was about to go.  Like they've always been there, and I was just not allowed to see them until now.  In that way it feels like kind of a troll setup, which I've got no problem with in the context of troll levels, making me feel dumb in clever, funny ways is its own kind of entertainment.  But it's a rough adjustment in an otherwise normal, serious level.

 

 

[Jaccident]

I think they can be used well, but are easy to use in an annoying way

Edited January 10, 2022 by Jaccident

[Astronomical]

14 minutes ago, ZethXM said:

move in, monsters ambush me suddenly from somewhere.  What makes popup monsters feel shitty, I think, is it somehow feels like I'm supposed to be the idiot for not seeing them, since they aren't arriving from anywhere diegetically.

While I believe it appeared in plutonia a few times, I believe that it's fundamentally comes from the same design philosophy, the point is that you can't expect anything for free.  I panic when a trap isn't set when I grab something.  A visual example is decino on map 4 of Valiant freaking out because he thinks monsters are teleporting in off screen when he grabs the SCG, despite the fact that nothing happens when you grab it, because at the time he was playing Sunlust.  

 

Pop up monsters can be annoying but I don't personally have a problem with them.  

[thiccyosh]

I have played maps that abuse this trick and to be honest, I don't like it.

[ZethXM]

Just now, Astronomical said:

While I believe it appeared in plutonia a few times, I believe that it's fundamentally comes from the same design philosophy, the point is that you can't expect anything for free. 

 

Ehhhhh.  That philosophy boils down to "having traps in your map when the player does things", which isn't really what I'm getting at.  I'm talking more the "walking into a room while fighting, surprise it's actually full of dudes, oops you facerocketed" type of pop-in.

[MFG38]

I'm getting an odd sense of deja vu from this thread. Like I've seen this exact same OP with the exact same word choices and the exact same phrasing before.

[CBM]

I've only recently used this in maps and I prefer when possible to have monsters hide in alcoves that slide open as the player walks past instead

 

or teleport in if I really need to

[Stupid Bunny]

These days I try and avoid using either popup or teleport-closet monsters too much. I feel like they’re too easy a crutch for the mapper to rely on to just make monsters happen, and I challenge myself to come up with creative ways of introducing more monsters into gameplay while also opening up new areas of a map. It’s not to say of course that they don’t both have a place in mapping, I do like both methods for keeping an area quiet and empty until a certain critical moment, or for suddenly unloading a stream of unexpected monsters, but generally I prefer now to avoid closet teleports unless they’re necessary for whatever reason.

[Thelokk]

First time I met popups I thought it was a glitch or sonething. Anyway, yeah, very immersion breaking and cheap. Stuff just doesn't appear out of thin air and, if it does, I doubt it's something my shotty would take down. 

[Kyka]

Instantly appearing monsters.

 

Yeah I dislike it enough that if I see it, it does make me consider whether I want to keep playing.

 

It just ruins immersion for me.

 

That said, I am happy to see this sector trick used in places where the player won't see it happen, however. It is a useful trick to repopulate an area

Edited January 10, 2022 by Kyka

[Captain Keen]

8 hours ago, DavitW said:

If you're talking about popup monsters. Then I agree, they are wicked lame.

 

Yes, "popup monsters".

 

1 hour ago, Kyka said:

It just ruins immersion for me. 

 

That said, I am happy to see this sector trick used in places where the player won't see it happen, however. It is a useful trick to repopulate an are

 

I agree, when it's more subtle it can be effective.

 

5 hours ago, ZethXM said:

Ehhhhh.  That philosophy boils down to "having traps in your map when the player does things", which isn't really what I'm getting at.  I'm talking more the "walking into a room while fighting, surprise it's actually full of dudes, oops you facerocketed" type of pop-in.

 

Yes, exactly. Traps are good. But just appearing into thin air is an immersion breaker, and often I think it's a bit of a cheat.

 

5 hours ago, MFG38 said:

I'm getting an odd sense of deja vu from this thread. Like I've seen this exact same OP with the exact same word choices and the exact same phrasing before.

 

I am *sure* I am not the only person to bring this up. It's probably been brought up numerous times over the years. I have no delusions of grandeur when it comes to the originality of my posts.

 

In fact, with how many forum threads there are on here, I'm sure basically every question/comment/poll you can imagine has been asked 20 times before. Just now there's a thread called "Favourite Map from each episode?" which I've seen asked like 5 times just in the past two years. Still fun to answer!

 

5 hours ago, thiccyosh said:

I have played maps that abuse this trick and to be honest, I don't like it.

 

Yes, when used sparingly, it can be a decent surprise. I think JENESIS is a good example, where this is used a few times (Map 14 for example), but it's not standard operating procedure.

[Deadwing]

It's very useful for me lmao

 

The enemies are where you want and you don't need to worry about players triggering them by vision or by sound (just make them deaf). No need to create separated closets too.

[Captain Keen]

1 hour ago, Deadwing said:

It's very useful for me lmao

 

The enemies are where you want and you don't need to worry about players triggering them by vision or by sound (just make them deaf). No need to create separated closets too. 

 

Fair enough! I really enjoyed playing Moonblood, it's a great vanilla-ish wad, though I don't remember you using a ton of popup monsters in that one.

[BoxY]

Setting up closets to make a bunch of monsters teleport instantly into desired places is really tedious so I don't mind if a mapper takes a shortcut by just making a raising sector.

[Doomkid]

I looooove open concept maps where you can see later areas. Problem is, without having like 70% of the monsters "sunk below ground", you'll be able to clear that area out to the point where it's bone-dry before you even get there, which is a total snoozefest.

 

As a few others have mentioned, I try to make it happen out of sight - There's some small passage the player has to walk through to get to that "far off area", and as they walk through said passage, the monsters slyly raise out of the ground, on the down-low. The player doesn't even notice, they just round the bend to the new area and see a new wave of enemies to face.

 

I use this trick in almost every map, only a handful of times have I ever done it right in front of the player, and I do feel those spots are janky, looking back... However, I think it could be made a lot LESS janky by placing a "blank object" that triggers the teleport animation on top of the "pop-in monsters". So you'd still have the benefits head_cannon mentioned of the 8 tic delay and monster wake-up sound, but with the benefit of it kinda looking like they "teleported there" rather than just appearing from thin air.

 

tl;dr it's an awesome trick for making sure you always have new baddies to kill when you enter a new area! Not so much when it happens right in your face.

[BigBoy91]

I think it can definitely be overdone. Base Ganymede is one of my favorite WADs, but it's pretty guilty of it. Borderline obnoxious at points. 😆

[Captain Keen]

44 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I looooove open concept maps where you can see later areas. Problem is, without having like 70% of the monsters "sunk below ground", you'll be able to clear that area out to the point where it's bone-dry before you even get there, which is a total snoozefest. 

 

That's a good point.

 

46 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

So you'd still have the benefits head_cannon mentioned of the 8 tic delay and monster wake-up sound, but with the benefit of it kinda looking like they "teleported there" rather than just appearing from thin air.

 

That does seem like the best compromise.

 

44 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

tl;dr it's an awesome trick for making sure you always have new baddies to kill when you enter a new area! Not so much when it happens right in your face. 

 

Okay, I think that's the right approach, good points again!

[Deadwing]

2 hours ago, Captain Keen said:

 

Fair enough! I really enjoyed playing Moonblood, it's a great vanilla-ish wad, though I don't remember you using a ton of popup monsters in that one.

 

Hmmm I think I only started using later haha, because I don't remember too >.<

 

Pop-ups can definitely be abused, but it's very convenient and easy to control in relation to traditional teleports. It's quite helpful when I'm lazy too! I can see how it can be problematic if it happens in the player's face though

[lunchlunch]

.

Edited October 18, 2022 by lunchlunch

[Mr. LBN]

What I would personally do since I actually like the pop up mechanic is to create a few sectors in a specific design that suits the theme of the map and showcase early on that anytime you see this design/architecture? an enemy will frequently or almost always pop up when you get to this area.  It's arcade-esque and is predictable, but it often allows the player to pick up patterns in the map so that they either know or guess if a monster will pop up from that area. 

 

I do recall one map I made where you have to go into an area, drop down a waterfall, and find a way to a teleporter that leads you to an elevated rocky area that you can clearly see has no monsters or monsters you've already killed, but as soon you teleport into it the monsters have popped up.  It's almost like the sequencing done in Duke Nukem 3D's first level where you walk over a trigger line and an enemy pops into existence behind you around the flaming trashbin location.

 

The Popup mechanic can also be used in a staging/arena area where the player enters a segment of the map with perches, ledges, elevation, columns, etc, and have these enemies pop-up in a sequence.

 

Hell sometimes I don't mind the random dickish popups that almost straight up kill you because it's just so random and out of place (It's one of those charming annoying things).

[Kinsie]

If you're going to have monsters pop-in, you also have to visually justify how they showed up, either by popping-in an entire sector-based school bus or fleet of little sector-based motorcycles, or by opening a previously-locked door to a break room where they were previously having lunch.

 

It's not just good design advice, it's The Law.

[Captain Keen]

3 hours ago, lunchlunch said:

It gets over abused in Speed of Doom but it's a great tool to have

 

Yes, I think it bothered me more in that wad than anywhere else. You'd have this huge empty space and then suddenly a 100 monsters pop into it out of nowhere. It just felt like a bug, not a design feature.

[Kyka]

Speed of Doom really is the poster boy for this particular trick. Wonderful mapset, I actually finished it way back when it came out. But yeah I really disliked the whole pop up thing.