Going Through The Serious Sam Games Again

[Rudolph]

50 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

You mean, like Siberian Mayhem?

No. If I understand correctly, Siberian Mayhem is just a stand-alone sequel to Serious Sam 4, which is not a retro shooter. Judging by the screens alone, it is probably going to be huge in terms of file size and run poorly on older machines.

 

By "retro shooter", I mean games like Ion Fury, WRATH, Amid Evil, Supplice, etc. People have mentioned Doom slaughtermaps, so I think it would be neat if Croteam could approach, for example, Doom veteran mappers to make a 2.5D first-person shooter running on GZDoom.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[Redneckerz]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

No. If I understand correctly, Siberian Mayhem is just a stand-alone sequel to Serious Sam 4, which is not a retro shooter.

It is very much a retro shooter, just not the kind you are looking for.*

 

Spoiler

*What you consider a retro shooter is a 3D game with early 3D visuals or a 2.5D games with sprite based enemies. Serious Sam, for that merit, is also a retro shooter -You collect health, armor, defeat enemies. The difference is that SS uses a relatively high end engine and does this against big arena style maps.

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Judging by the screens alone, it is probably going to be huge in terms of file size and run poorly on older machines.

Assumptions are the worst of all fuck ups. :P

• Its 25 GB in size (versus 40 GB for Sam 4)
• It runs the same engine, which for Sam 4 initially had some issues. But Timelock is comprised of folks who know the engine inside out. The level design already looks a lot less like Sam than Sam 4 did, which in my eyes is a plus.

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

By "retro shooter", I mean games like Ion Fury, WRATH, Amid Evil, Supplice, etc. People have mentioned Doom slaughtermaps, so I think it would be neat if Croteam could approach, for example, Doom veteran mappers to make a 2.5D first-person shooter running on GZDoom.

They started on the Amiga, so there is little Doom experience there. They could however, because of their indie program, do what you suggest. But since they have always worked on their own engine since 1996, this is again very unlikely.

[holaareola]

18 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

I struggle to imagine a more irritating FPS experience than having to bunny hop everywhere for the sake of movement speed. Fuck that.

 

Nope. I have better things to do with my time like playing games that are actually fun, not something that I need to "Get used to". A constantly bobbing view and it's attendant sounds of the player hitting the floor constantly and probably grunting would drive me nuts.

Haha, your comment made me see bunny-hopping from outside eyes. Yeah, it's kind of terrible thinking about it.

 

I did enjoy Painkiller and particularly loved the movement, but then I was attuned to the technique and inured to the sound by overdosing on Q2 and Q3 multiplayer as a teen. I've heard things you people wouldn't believe, 1000 "HUAGH"s and thuds in Q2DM1 on one Cypriot evening in the late 90s...

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

It is very much a retro shooter, just not the kind you are looking for.*

I would agree to refer to Serious Sam 4 (and 3) as a retro-inspired shooter, but those games use too many modern design staples and visuals to qualify as a "retro shooter". Super Mario Bros hails back from the early 1980s, yet nobody is calling Super Mario Galaxy or Odyssey "retro platformers".

 

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

Its 25 GB in size (versus 40 GB for Sam 4)

That is still fucking huge, especially compared to the retro shooters I have mentioned - most of which are way under 1 GB.

 

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

They started on the Amiga, so there is little Doom experience there.

That is not what I said:

 

People have mentioned Doom slaughtermaps, so I think it would be neat if Croteam could approach, for example, veteran Doom mappers to make a 2.5D first-person shooter running on GZDoom.

 

EDIT: I do not give two shits about your caveat. If you agree with me here, just agree; do not make me say things I have not said just so you can argue against them and do not start nitpicking a random example I am giving just for the hell of it.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[Redneckerz]

8 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I would agree to refer to Serious Sam 4 (and 3) as a retro-inspired shooter, but those games use too many modern design staples and visuals to qualify as a "retro shooter".

Considering Sam hails all the way back from 1996, it is befitting as retro.

Quote

That is still fucking huge, especially compared to the retro shooters I have mentioned.

And yet it is small for a game that tries high end visuals. You assumed the game was huge in file size. I showed it isn't, before you bring in a pointless comparison.

 

Your point? ''games powered by a Doom or Build derivative are a lot smaller in size''?

 

In a world of 1 TB HD's and SSD's, this is -quite literally - irrelevant.

Quote

That is not what I said:

 

People have mentioned Doom slaughtermaps, so I think it would be neat if Croteam could approach, for example, veteran Doom mappers to make a 2.5D first-person shooter running on GZDoom.

Feel free to read the latter part of that sentence and you will find that there is actually some merit to your suggestion.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Redneckerz

[Rudolph]

@Redneckerz All right, that is enough. You are trying to derail this conversation by being purposely asinine and pedantic. 

 

I do not know why you feel so compelled to do this, but I am going to ask of you to stop this crap, right now.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[D4NUK1]

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

It is very much a retro shooter, just not the kind you are looking for.*

 

  Reveal hidden contents

*What you consider a retro shooter is a 3D game with early 3D visuals or a 2.5D games with sprite based enemies. Serious Sam, for that merit, is also a retro shooter -You collect health, armor, defeat enemies. The difference is that SS uses a relatively high end engine and does this against big arena style maps.

Assumptions are the worst of all fuck ups. :P

• Its 25 GB in size (versus 40 GB for Sam 4)
• It runs the same engine, which for Sam 4 initially had some issues. But Timelock is comprised of folks who know the engine inside out. The level design already looks a lot less like Sam than Sam 4 did, which in my eyes is a plus.

 

This mostly is the practical evolution, and i really don't see Serious Sam do another game done by third party, not at least after SS4 and SS SM do a lot of money and rejuice the fans across the scene.

Instead of wait for some game to show, why not check some indie game inspired by Serious Sam and buy that, mostly for being indie will work with more affordable tech and not being so much heavy on size.

[Rudolph]

@D4NUK1 Yeah, as I said, I am having a lot of fun with Serious Sam: Bogus Detour - even though it flopped and it will most likely never get a sequel that addresses its shortcomings - and I might check Crackshell's other titles once I am done with it. Vlambeer's The Random Encounter looks fun too. 

 

Speaking of Serious Sam-inspired indie titles, do you have other examples of games?

Edited January 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

33 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Speaking of Serious Sam-inspired indie titles, do you have other examples of games?

While it's not really related to Serious Sam as much as it is Painkiller, have you ever tried Necrovision? It isn't perfect, but I really enjoyed it for its unique atmosphere.

 

Hard Reset is another one along the same lines to check out.

 

As for Croteam approaching DOOM mappers for a Serious Sam title, I highly doubt that will ever happen:

 

1) They use their own in-house engine, like Redneckerz said.

2) DOOM is technically a competing product.

3) It would just be kind of unprofessional and strange.

4) They have access to other game engines that have a wider range of features that are more convenient in terms of their goals and technical knowledge, and it would be easier for them (or other indie devs) to use those engines instead of GzDOOM.

Edited January 12, 2022 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Rudolph]

I used GZDoom as an example of the kind of game I had in mind. I would be equally fine with a 2.5 first-person shooter running on the Serious Engine, so long as they get developers who have a better understanding of level design and especially pacing than Croteam themselves.

 

As for your suggestions, I did try them, but I did not like them very much: NecroVision is way too rough around the edges and Hard Reset is forgettable and kind of frustrating (too many enemies dealing area-of-effect attacks and too many cheap invisible walls). 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[Aaron Blain]

It's funny -- I played many many hours of FE/SE back in the 00's, as well as other games like Halo 1&2. Now when I revisit them, I don't find them as engaging.
 

In recent years, I tend to find myself either playing Doom 2 or Robotron 2084 (or sometimes Smash TV) rather than Serious Sam. I have no qualms with SS's level design, except for frog swarms. Honestly, I like a game expressly designed around arenas more than I like arena lock-ins in Doom PWADs.

 

Maybe I'll install it and see if it grabs me.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Aaron Blain

[Rudolph]

So I made it to Bogus Detour's Troy level and this is the most fun I had playing a Serious Sam game. Maybe it is the pixel art, but killing enemies is so satisfying in this game: even the Kleer, which I despise in the main series, are fun to fight here! I said it before, but it is just so unfair that the game flopped so hard. I would not say no to a Doom or a Duke Nukem spin-off done in that style!

Edited January 14, 2022 by Rudolph

[Antroid]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

even the Kleer, which I despise in the main series

This reminds me of a person that recently said they never used the SSG in doom eternal because they thought it sucked. Kleer are one of the best enemies in SS!

[Rudolph]

In the main games, I do not like it at all: it is basically Quake's Fiend, only worse-looking, more annoying and without the gore. I wish Croteam had replaced it with a Baby Werebull or a leaping Gnaar variant. Still, in Bogus Detour, the Kleer looks better and beefier and the top-down perspective makes it easier to keep track of them and their projectiles, so I do not mind them at all in that game. 

[BGreener]

10 hours ago, Antroid said:

This reminds me of a person that recently said they never used the SSG in doom eternal because they thought it sucked. Kleer are one of the best enemies in SS!

Yeup they’re fantastic, some of the best and most fun hordes to manage in a shooter.

[Rudolph]

Okay, I think I have found two things I genuinely dislike about Bogus Detour: the land mines that can only be seen and destroyed when you get almost in their blast radius and the awkward checkpoint save system that occasionally "forgets" to keep tracks of previously-found secrets.

 

Nothing game-breaking, but annoying nonetheless.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Rudolph

[Rudolph]

After listening to the amazing soundtracks of the Serious Sam series, I now find myself feeling like giving the first-person shooter entries another shot.

 

I guess I will have to try to be patient with the game and remind myself that it is not as tightly designed as Doom.

[LadyMistDragon]

Yep, especially in the last level of the Second Encounter

[Rudolph]

Oh god, really? :S

[TasAcri]

Ι always loved the Serious Sam games, especially the HD edition and 3, mostly because i love the Ancient Egyptian aesthetics and Croteam makes the best looking ones. As you can imagine, i love Talos Principle for that reason as well (The Greek setting wasn't bad either).

 

I still find Ass Creed Origins pretty boring though. Ubisoft managed to bore me with my favorite setting. That's an achievement.

[Rudolph]

Yeah, that is why I am so frustrated that I have not been enjoying the Serious Sam games as much as Doom: the music, the protagonist, the art direction, the charmingly awkward humor and goofy story, most of the enemies, the little-train-that-could mentality of Croteam... it is all such great stuff. I do not even get why people criticize TFE being solely set in Ancient Egypt, as there is still plenty of variety in the environments.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Rudolph

[LadyMistDragon]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Oh god, really? :S

 

Ah crud, I was referring to the music's awesomeness. Sorry, that was sort of thrown distractedly. On the other hand, there is a an area you bounce around constantly in that level, so maybe?

Edited January 22, 2022 by LadyMistDragon

[Rudolph]

So I have just stumbled this amusing audio skit from Jake The Voice's channel:

 

 

I could not help but notice that Duke did not have any comeback to Sam mocking him for Duke Nukem Forever. As such, I have to wonder: is there such thing as a bad Serious Sam game? I know I have been rather critical of some of the games in this thread, but I cannot say that they are outright bad and I am more and more under the impression that they might just not be for me.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Rudolph

[Jello]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

So I have just stumbled this amusing audio skit from Jake The Voice's channel:

 

 

I could not help but notice that Duke did not have any comeback to Sam mocking him for Duke Nukem Forever. As such, I have to wonder: is there such thing as a bad Serious Sam game? I know I have been rather critical of some of the games in this thread, but I cannot say that they are outright bad and I am more and more under the impression that they might just not be for me.

I would say they're probably just not for you. I love them, well TFE and TSE, and Sam 2; and I did find quite a bit of enjoyment in BFE and Sam 4. They're enjoyable games if you enjoy what your presented with. If you don't like areas with countless hoards spawning and you don't like switching weapons depending on which enemies spawned, and you don't like backstepping and dodging enemies, and switching to a double barrel to take down that Kleer that's about to pounce, then switching to a rocket launcher to take out the Arachnoid on a ledge, and then sniper rifle to take out those harpies. Then yeah, it's not for you. But I think the games are fun.

 

But I can really see why someone wouldn't like them, they can really feel like a slog at points. But to me, they're a fun slog. To each their own.

[Dubbag]

Ive said it before Serious Sam should have been named "Run Backwards and Shoot Simulator"

[Mr. Freeze]

The only outright bad SS game is the first half of BFE. 

[pyborg]

Oh come on! The series is already on it's deathbed because of Planet Badass, don't make us hate it more!

Alright, but seriously, I cannot get past the final level of the First Encounter. It's just a total swarm of enemies with no thought of "Is this in any way skill-based?"

I guess that's the appeal of SS, having swarms of enemies come at you and having to deal with it, but this just seems cheap. The game basically becomes, well as Dubbag said, a "Run Backwards and Shoot Simulator." The part with the Kleer Skeletons is fine, although extremely repetitive, but the part with the werewolves is terrible. They just throw a crap ton of them at you expecting you to be able to handle it. Even if you use the minigun, there's no way to gun them down with getting hit at least once. Maybe I'm just bad, I'll admit that, but this is stupid. No other level in the game comes close to this level of difficulty. I hate it.

 

Anyways, thanks for coming to my TED Talk, next time I'll be talking about Plutonia. 

[Rudolph]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

The only outright bad SS game is the first half of BFE. 

Why is that?

[Jello]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

The only outright bad SS game is the first half of BFE. 

I will have to agree with this. BFE laid a dirty turd on a great franchise. And really I only finished BFE by modifying the weapons. I buffed the pistol so that it was comparable to a .50AE, so any beheaded would die in one shot, reduced the magazine capacity from 10 to 7. Then changed the pump shotgun so that it fired slugs, it would fire one shot instead of multiple, and the one shot would have the same damage as all the projectiles. I couldn't hit multiple targets, which was a nerf, but the targets I hit felt it. And changed the double barrel so that it would fire with a wider spread, much wider than it originally had. It still worked on a single Kleer, but I wouldn't fight a Werebull with it unless you were standing right next to it.

[Jello]

19 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Why is that?

This will be a double post, and I'm sorry for that. The first half of BFE was meant to be a modern military shooter, and there are rumors that CroTeam was actually in talks with id for working on Doom 4. That why we got the Scrapjack: 

 

Does he remind you of anyone?

 

But the first half is pretty meh. The last half is where you really get some classic Serious Sam gameplay, and it's when it really gets enjoyable. I mean, they put the laser gun in as a secret weapon, and if you miss it, it's gone. The same for the sniper rifle. I wish I had kinder words for BFE, it was fun, but I had to fix the game to have fun with it. Because they started out making one or two games, and ended up making a Sam game.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jello