Doom 64 is flawed

[Redneckerz]

Doom 64 being overrated when in practice it deviates so heavily from stock Doom that it is its own canon-game, i am not sure.

And with current PC-efforts being able to replicate vis-a-vis the look of the game and an aspiring community taking place on 64 EX thanks to the re-release, i say Doom 64 has a bright future ahead.

 

12 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

iTs AbOuT aCcUrAcY

I would expected more of a proper take than going with a stylistic choice that is just so boring.. whatever serious you may had gets redundant fast through such choices.

[D4NUK1]

12 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

 

Beats me, I played it for about five minutes then went back to Doom 64 EX to cleanse my pallet lol No mouselook having ass shit

 

iTs AbOuT aCcUrAcY

 

Well I guess we should pillarbox the motherfucker and force people to play in 240p30

There are more ways of playing a more modern Doom 64, like GEC edition or Absolution.

[WaKa]

After a good night of sleep and thinking about it I've kinda changed my perspective on the game. I'll admit that that long post was written just after a rage quit for a death that didn't feel fair and was pretty late into the map. It was the point where every little thing about the game bothered me, especially since it wasn't the first time that has happened either. And to be honest, I still think that those flaws still persist, and to say they don't is feigning ignorance. The only non-flaws would be the new art style and the more aggressive Lost Souls and Pain Elementals since those fall more under "opinion". Or maybe the other points shouldn't be considered flaws at all, but just mechanical differences (more on that in the last paragraph).

 

But anyway, the "overrated" part is probably not earned (I would change the title of the thread if I knew how). It came because in my journey to play all the official IWADs, Doom 64 gets brought up a lot, especially since it's so different from the usual formula. A hidden gem is what it usually gets called. That skewed my expectations really hard and I was expecting something amazing, especially after coming from playing a lot of Doom 2 maps. While my perception of it was good at the start, the longer I went the more the little differences were starting to get on my nerves until eventually, I couldn't stand them at all.

 

But the real question is, is that fair? We usually compare wads and mods with the base Doom 2 gameplay because it sort of became the gold standard. But this is completely unfair to Doom 64 which tries to be its own thing. The closest analogy I can think of is The Ultimate Doom. Playing it before Doom 2 is great, there's a reason why Episode 1 is so iconic, but the other episodes also have their fans. They're really great maps and I would argue that the overall map quality is actually better than Doom 2. But then, playing it after coming from Doom 2 is not the same. The lack of the SSG and almost no mid-tier enemies (Aside from the Caco) hurt the experience for me more than I would like to admit. Shotgunning Barons and Cacos is just not engaging enough. BUT, does that mean Doom 1 is automatically inferior to Doom 2? That we should ignore all its merits because "X is better"? I don't think so, and that's a pitfall I fell when I judged Doom 64 too harshly. Doom 64 is Doom 64, and I shouldn't try to make it feel more like Doom 2 because that's what I'm used to.

 

Does this mean that I've changed my opinion about Doom 64? lol no, it's still the Doom game I like the least. But the difference now is that I can appreciate more the other perspective and see why it has a lot of fans. And also appreciate more its strengths! Doom 64 can be a very oppressive game and when everything is silent and you're running down hallways filled with dead demons with the music and the desolate atmosphere grinding you down? That's where Doom 64 shines.

 

Small Note: When I complain about Doom 64 in no way it's directed at Nightdive. I think their efforts to preserve old games are admirable and I love their ports. If anything, it is directed towards Midway since they were the original devs. I wonder where the mappers are now?

[msx2plus]

11 hours ago, Shepardus said:

This is one reason why Doom 64 for Doom II is so compelling

i so badly want one the other way around, where the missing goods are added to D64 and maps reconfigured to take advantage of them... D64D2 is a phenomenal project but since the atmosphere is 50% of what D64 is to me, it does kind of miss me sadly.

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, WaKa said:

But anyway, the "overrated" part is probably not earned (I would change the title of the thread if I knew how).

You can do that by editing your first post.

[Azuris]

@WaKa

 

I know wich Parts annoyed you ;)

 

But in my Opinion the Fun shooting Parts and cool Enviroments where more frequently than such Traps.

 

And the Darkness is something even the Creators state, that they've made an Error to playtest and program all the Time in really dark Rooms ^^

So it is nothing wrong to turn up the Brightness.

 

I would recommend the modern PC Port or the Mod aviable for the N64, but more the PC port to just be able to save often.

 

[Rudolph]

The only thing I do not care for about Doom 64 is the Fun Levels: apart from maybe 'Cat And Mouse', I do not find them fun and I wish the developers had added an extra level to the map rotation instead.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

On 1/16/2022 at 7:42 PM, Rudolph said:

The only thing I do not care for about Doom 64 is the Fun Levels: apart from maybe 'Cat And Mouse', I do not find them fun and I wish the developers had added an extra level to the map rotation instead.

I agree, the bonus maps (from the original release, not the new episode in the port) are too fine-tuned, to the point where they feel mechanical. They also strip away the atmosphere which makes them feel like a tacky afterthought. I beat them once and felt no satisfaction, so I always skip them. The new episode is what the original bonus levels should have been.

[Rudolph]

As I said, the only one I like is "Cat and Mouse", because it does feel like Doom 64's take on Plutonia's MAP11: Hunted.

[omx32x]

i feel like doom 64 has a problem with pacing.

 

the game is very slow to get to the good stuff and because the weapons are kinda static its very easy to get bored by the combat.

[Rykzeon]

On 1/16/2022 at 11:43 AM, Jello said:

And the soundtrack is so bleak, depressing, and atmospheric that it deserves a mention.

And don't forget the SFX that played back with some kind of equalizer in certain areas so you'll hear your SSG is being shot at big empty hall. Combined with already depressing soundtrack and eerie visual design, this makes player feels like they are in some kind of abandoned base and lonely.

And yea I hate how the zombieman and shotgunner are so hard to distinguish between them to the point I keep getting hit by shotgunner on blank range when I use berserk punch on early levels (I played on Doom 64 EX by the way).

[Kute]

My issue with Doom 64 is that I don't think it plays better than Doom 2. 

 

I think its base wad is probably weaker than Doom 1 and 2, and then with the mod support standard Doom has, it becomes a bit of a blowout.

 

It's definitely a good game though. I wish I hadn't slept on it back in the day, but like everyone else, I was all about that 3D by the late 90's. Then when Diablo 2 hit I more or less gave up on the FPS genre.

 

I find 2d Doom has aged much better than more or less anything else in the 90's outside of maybe Half-life 1, which while still a great game, isn't as replayable as Doom 2 and all of its incredible user wads 

[TasAcri]

The lack of shotgun animations absolutely ruined the game back then for me. But later on i gave it a second chance, thinking Quake 1 also has shitty looking shotguns with no animations and i loved that game. Thus, DOOM 64 became my second favorite DOOM game after the original 1st episode.

 

I also kinda dislike most of the enemy redesigns but it's not a big deal. The new sound effects are amazing, despite how i would normally hate such thing since the original ones are iconic.

 

But the level designs and atmosphere are absolutely the best thing about this game. I didn't even mind the lack of music because the hellish ambience works so well here. Much better than it does in PSX DOOM, despite being designed for that originally.

[Edward850]

6 hours ago, Kute said:

I find 2d Doom has aged much better than more or less anything else in the 90's outside of maybe Half-life 1

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_2D 🤨

[Rykzeon]

22 hours ago, TasAcri said:

The lack of shotgun animations absolutely ruined the game back then for me. But later on i gave it a second chance, thinking Quake 1 also has shitty looking shotguns with no animations and i loved that game. Thus, DOOM 64 became my second favorite DOOM game after the original 1st episode.

Quake: Doom Edition

[Muusi]

Doom 64 is a kickass game that got a stupid name and was released on a piece of shit console that the N64 is. Now that it's available for better hardware, it's a joy to play.

 

It's not as good as PSX Doom (because nothing is lol) but it's certainly better than vanilla DOS Doom. It's main problem is the name, or at least was back when it came out. Doom64? Oh, that must mean it's just regular old Doom on N64. They should've called it Doom III or something. 

[Theespressoman]

i think DOOM64 is good,but a bit limited due to the limitations of the N64,making its combat a fair bit bland in comparison to normal DOOM.

2 hours ago, Muusi said:

It's not as good as PSX Doom (because nothing is lol) but it's certainly better than vanilla DOS Doom. It's main problem is the name, or at least was back when it came out. Doom64? Oh, that must mean it's just regular old Doom on N64. They should've called it Doom III or something. 

why?

its a great port,but doesn't really hold hold up next to the DOS version,but i agree 100% on the dumb name.

Edited January 23, 2022 by esspressoman

[Muusi]

22 minutes ago, esspressoman said:

i think DOOM64 is good,but a bit limited due to the limitations of the N64,making its combat a fair bit bland in comparison to normal DOOM.

why?

its a great port,but doesn't really hold hold up next to the DOS version,but i agree 100% on the dumb name.

Why it's not as good as PSX Doom? Because PSX Doom has the classic sprites but it uses the far better music and sound effects like D64. I also love the old maps that are greatly enhanced by the colored lighting.

 

I need to erect a shrine to Aubrey Hodges. To me, he made Doom complete. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Muusi

[Theespressoman]

13 minutes ago, Muusi said:

Why it's not as good as PSX Doom? Because PSX Doom has the classic sprites but it uses the far better music and sound effects like D64. I also love the old maps that are greatly enhanced by the colored lighting.

i get that,but the gameplay of DOS DOOM is just alot nicer,not just mouse and keyboard,but the more consistent fps when playing stuff like the ultimate DOOM and DOOM 2,also a fair number of levels are gone(though there are a few decent exclusive levels to soften the blow to be fair),and no archvile (also some stronger enemies are used less and debuffed from what i remember).

not to put PSX DOOM on blast (especially in this part of the board),but DOS DOOM is a overall better game.

[Muusi]

6 minutes ago, esspressoman said:

i get that,but the gameplay of DOS DOOM is just alot nicer,not just mouse and keyboard,but the more consistent fps when playing stuff like the ultimate DOOM and DOOM 2,also a fair number of levels are gone(though there are a few decent exclusive levels to soften the blow to be fair),and no archvile (also some stronger enemies are used less and debuffed from what i remember).

not to put PSX DOOM on blast (especially in this part of the board),but DOS DOOM is a overall better game.

Back in the day when i just started to get into PC Doom, i used a PS2 - > USB adapter and played Doom with the same L1 R1-to-strafe control scheme and i still enjoy it when playing on an actual PS1. I prefer that to mouse and keyboard, not to even mention the even better dual analog scheme. I also don't mind the slowdown that is sometimes very present in Doom II maps, plus i don't miss the Arch-Vile one bit 😆 I also enjoy Doom I maps far more with the added Doom II stuff they have.

[Theespressoman]

2 minutes ago, Muusi said:

Back in the day when i just started to get into PC Doom, i used a PS2 - > USB adapter and played Doom with the same L1 R1-to-strafe control scheme and i still enjoy it when playing on an actual PS1. I prefer that to mouse and keyboard, not to even mention the even better dual analog scheme. I also don't mind the slowdown that is sometimes very present in Doom II maps, plus i don't miss the Arch-Vile one bit 😆 I also enjoy Doom I maps far more with the added Doom II stuff they have.

that doesn't make the exclusions not a very present thing,the slowdown (and generally low fps) with the controls makes the PSX version play worse than the DOS version.

its just an overall worse,cause visuals are always nice,but content and especially playabillity are what really matter,

for example take quake console ports,the Saturn version is a much better port,it even has more content (and executive content),but the N64 version plays just so much better that any advantage becomes meaningless.

a better way to phrase your stance is "i prefer" rather than "is better".

[Doomkid]

I saw the thread after the title change and was wondering why the OP was getting some hostile responses, basically telling him to post this where no one will see it. Seems awfully rude tbh but I guess the original thread title was a little more inflammatory. Still, that kind of behavior is not appropriate. Please don't do that. This forum survives on discussion.

 

..Anyway, it's funny because I pretty much agree with the entirety of the OP, but I still find Doom64 to be a good game despite the flaws. Of course this is personal preference, but the mapping in Doom1 and Doom2 outclasses that of Doom64 by several orders of magnitude in terms of raw "fun factor". They're larger and easier to navigate while still giving you the joy of exploration, they use more appealing colors, the items and weapons stand out far better against the environment - the "visual language" of Doom1 and Doom2 is honestly just so much clearer and easier to digest. Making things hard to distinguish is seriously no bueno, far as what I like to play and make.

 

I have nostalgia for Doom64's ugly sprites, and I'm thankful that they didn't just use the same old designs yet again - After Doom, Doom2, Final Doom and all the incarnations between 1993 and 1996, it would have been seen as so lazy and the game probably would have far worse of a reputation. Even though they're a downgrade, I think it was worthwhile, and they have their own charm that I appreciate.

 

Another thing I appreciate is that the atmosphere is so genuinely foreboding, especially for a game as old as it is. Considering the hardware, they did so much with it. A lot of the combat is really fun, and even though some maps are way too mazey and backtracky, there are others that go down really smooth. Plus, I still "overall prefer" the vanilla SFX, but I love the PSX ones too, and I'm glad D64 uses them as well. I do think it would have been super lame for them to just re-use them (same deal with the sprites). It is kinda dumb that 1 or 2 old vanilla sounds made their way in and were used incorrectly, but ah well.

 

Interesting review and perspective!

[Dark Pulse]

51 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I saw the thread after the title change and was wondering why the OP was getting some hostile responses, basically telling him to post this where no one will see it. Seems awfully rude tbh but I guess the original thread title was a little more inflammatory. Still, that kind of behavior is not appropriate. Please don't do that. This forum survives on discussion.

Originally it was "Doom 64 is overrated," so you can probably guess why the responses had the tone they did.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[Nine Inch Heels]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, WaKa said:

- The art style

Yeah, not gonna quote the whole paragraph here in the interest of making this look less exhaustive... Anyway, there are things there that I agree with. I am far from the oldest member around, but I am still old enough to have owned an N64 with an original D64 cartridge (around the time the console was more or less on life-support), which I plugged into the kinds of TVs that were commonplace back then, and it didn't do the gameplay any favours at all, in particular in the first 12 or so maps, most of which being "dark tech stuff" from what I remember... I get where people are coming from when they want to create something that's, by design, leaning mostly towards to ambience while sacrificing playability in some places, but I think they really played that card too heavy-handedly for too long... Having said that, it's been a while since I last played it, but I seem to remember that the more difficult levels later in the game, many of which taking place in hell or whatnot, suffered way less from the "too dark to see shit clearly syndrome". One thing worth adding to this, though, would be that they limited FOV range on the console, to compensate, supposedly, for the less than optimal hardware, which added some degree of obfuscation even in otherwise open areas that you would expect to see in their entirety if you played any of the PC Dooms that existed at the time...

 

As for sprites, I think some are better than others, sure, perhaps not the prettiest overall, but neither is OG PC Doom... What irked me the most about them when I played the game was just how different the art-style overall was, and how lacking in faithfulness they were overall. I can't say how I would have felt about them if I had never seen the originals before, but I agree that some of them are probably worth bemoaning for various reasons...

 

On 1/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, WaKa said:

Let's start with the good: The new nightmare imp is a cool addition. It's not terribly different than the original (they both die with a single shotgun blast) but their faster projectiles and semi-invisibility make them slightly more dangerous. [...]

 

All the other changes to enemies range from "Ok" to "What the hell". The what the hell is obviously the new Lost Souls and Pain Elementals. Look, everyone hates the regular Souls and PEs, so why the hell did they decide to make them WORSE? The new souls are more aggressive and faster, and while they die more easily they still are a huge threat. Getting ambushed by Lost Souls here can kill you, even if you are at full health, they are merciless. AND THEN there's the Pain Elemental, which now can spawn two souls at a time and their souls explode if they can't be spawned, so now you can't do the trick to prevent them from spawning souls on death. I'm all for a new challenge but I absolutely hate these guys, maybe I'm just salty because I lost many lives to them and I just need to "git gud", but damn, getting surrounded by these is a death sentence.

Okay this one I had to quote in parts...

 

Not to pull a mean-spirited "gotcha" here, but complaining about a general lack of visual clarity in the game as a whole, and then heralding the "blurry imps" as an example for "cool new stuff" is something I have trouble making much sense of, especially because they also hurled translucent projectiles at the player as far as I remember...

 

So, as for everybody hating PEs and lost souls... I'd say there's a fair bit of projection going on. I'm not the biggest fan of OG lost souls because I think they have too much health to chew through in order to get rid of an annoyance, but in general I think they're alright. As for pain elementals, those are among my favourite monsters, because they prompt players to kill them quickly while leaving everything else alone for the most part, lest you find yourself in a war of attrition. While there is something to be said about the way OG Doom's PEs could be exploited, and how it can add nuances to gameplay that are not possible in D64, I like that they don't let you do that in D64, because it means that even a single PE can deal a lot of damage if left unchecked, and if it ever gets too close, then contact with it could be lethal on the spot - which is pretty much the sort of thing I would expect from a "high priority threat".

 

On 1/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, WaKa said:

- The maps

For the sake of brevity, maps were a mixed bag in any doom ever made until then, so it's kind of preaching to the choir to highlight it as a problem that is somehow something particular to doom64... Would also bet that TNT gets more elbows for one map in particular than doom64 gets for its "meh" ones...

 

Now for inescapable pits and whatnot...

 

Those have always been a part of the doom franchise. I get why some people don't like them, I can see why they would be annoying to deal with for the less tactile player when there isn't any way to save the game prior to any sort of platforming challenge, but I think the issue is a bit overblown. Being close to the end of the map is not supposed to mean that you should get to deal with some gentle fluff exclusively. "The chasm" has only 1 inescapable pit you can fall into as far as I'm aware, and it's right at the end of the map where the tightrope section is. So, in that sense, Doom64 is operating well within in the boundaries of the spirit of the originals, and I can appreciate that...

[Edward850]

20 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

One thing worth adding to this, though, would be that they limited FOV range on the console, to compensate, supposedly, for the less than optimal hardware, which added some degree of obfuscation even in otherwise open areas that you would expect to see in their entirety if you played any of the PC Dooms that existed at the time...

As far as we know, the FOV between Doom64 and PC Doom is the same, 90 degrees. Particularly aggressive TV overscan might give off the perception of it being lower, however.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Edward850

[Nine Inch Heels]

35 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

As far as we know, the FOV between Doom64 and PC Doom is the same, 90 degrees. Particularly aggressive TV overscan might give off the perception of it being lower, however.

I meant how far you can see into the distance, not how much of a chameleon doomguy would be...

[BigBoy91]

Doom 64 slaps. It's a little too dark on the original cartridge, but whatever. The atmosphere is right up there with Ultimate Doom.

[Edward850]

56 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I meant how far you can see into the distance, not how much of a chameleon doomguy would be...

Hmm, I believe the draw distance is only to cover up a technical limitation in the drawer. It doesn't come into effect in any actual maps (you don't get a chance to see it), but you may get a chance to if you see a projectile escape the normal level area. Because the segment slicing doesn't always cull projectiles behind it, and because there's no zbuffer, a projectile may end up being visible for a little bit until it escapes the draw distance. However you normally can't see this in action because the draw distance is adjusted to the biggest visual area the normal levels have.

 

For reference, if you're talking about fog, that's not a draw distance in this case (unlike in other N64 games like Turok), that's purely just visual aesthetics, not covering up anything.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, Edward850 said:

It doesn't come into effect in any actual maps (you don't get a chance to see it)

I remember somewhat clearly that one of the secret maps had that "issue"... And the one I'm thinking of was called "into the void" or something similar... But I'm also not sure if that effect was just for atmosphere's sake, or if that actually had anything to do with draw distance (as in, did the engine draw something I could not see for some reason not related to the drawer itself)

[Edward850]

Ah, I forgot about that map. It may actually have an area slightly bigger than the draw distance, but the fog in that level will mask it for sure, couldn't really say which one informs the other though, but the fog itself is certainly intentional and it's not as if the level is pressing for performance. The limits however are kept the same in the rerelease and nobody has brought up seeing any unusual cutoffs to the best of my understanding.