Doom II: maps 21, 23 and 24

[SilverHurling]

Watching some doom stuff on youtube i´ve seen that map 21 "nirvana" gets lots of hate, people even calling it that it sholud be a mistake for it to be in the game. But nonetheless maps 23 and 24 (specially 24) are trash in aestetics and gameplay-wise. Why nirvana gets all the hate?

[RHhe82]

I think maps 23 and 24 - especially map 24 - have some redeeming qualities whereas map 21 feels much like someone’s first attempt at mapping with boxy rooms, missing textures and locked doorbars you can easily skip.

 

That said, Barrels o’ Fun is still probably my least favourite level. The Chasm isn’t that obnoxious, unless you’re playing with a controller.

[Doomkid]

Historically, 24 gets/has gotten way more hate than 21 does.

 

Lumping 23 in with those (admittedly pretty ungood) maps seems crazy to me, personally the gameplay is fun and the visuals are nothing special, but get the job done. The gimmick also works for me too, and always did. I don’t dread it the way I dread 24 during a full playthrough either.

[BaileyTW]

I never got it. Like the visuals ain't bad by the standards of the episode, none of the fights are aggresively bad or anything (though I guess clean up ni the big room at the end can be meh I guess?) Like I dont get it. Maybe it's too short and abstract or something? I honestly don't get it at all. The map makes me feel no emotions honestly cause it's sandwiched between Gotcha and Catacombs and those are the good memorable maps of that block of maps followed by Barrels O' Fun which hurts my soul on a deep fundamental level probably with barrel splash damage.

[Shepardus]

I don't mind Nirvana - it's not a good level by any stretch of the imagination, but it's inoffensive and over quickly. Barrels o' Fun, however, is one I actually find a pain to play, if only thanks to that one room with all the pain elementals. I actually kind of like The Chasm - its combat is dull (way too many pinkies and not much of anything else), but the platforming and setting keep it interesting.

[xdude_gamer]

MAPS 21, 23, and 24 are fun, depending on what mood you're in. Sometimes I skip MAP21 if I'm playing through it, and other times not.

[Nikku4211]

I wish I was a pro speedrunner. Then I'd be able to enjoy Doom 2's MAP24: The Chasm.

 

I only remember MAP21 because of a Vine meme.

 

MAP23's mostly notable for how much its music is a surprisingly close cover of Alice In Chains' 'Dem Bones'.

[Thelokk]

To me it's kind of hard to single out maps in the IWADs because, let's face it, by today's standards Doom 2 has aged poorly - even worse than Doom 1 in my opinion. This said, I prefer Nirvana everyday over trash like Tenements or Suburbs.  

[Gregor]

I have the feeling the only reason Nirvana gets so much hate these days is because decino thinks it's the worst map ever made.

 

I personally quite like it. It's mostly because of that shotgunner room at the beginning. The rest of the map is just ok. It looks like trash, that's for sure but the gameplay is fine as far as i'm concerned.

But then again, i also think The Chasm (map24) is one of the better maps in Doom 2.

[Uncle 80]

The real stinker is map22. M21, M23 and M24 are all fine. That secret tech area (behind the rising stairs in the central cave) has been a great source of inspiration for my maps.

[aika]

I've sometimes wondered why there are so many medikits in the beginning room. That's 500 units of health right there!

 

BTW I think in MAP23 they should've gone all the way with the gimmick and made barrels part of every fight, instead of just the beginning area and last room.

[Gregor]

1 hour ago, aika said:

I've sometimes wondered why there are so many medikits in the beginning room. That's 500 units of health right there!

The medkits make sense if you play the map from a pistolstart. You can actually  take a lot of damage in this level. The starting room serves as your fallback position where you can heal up. Still a bit over the top perhaps but better safe than sorry.

[Dark Pulse]

I actually rather enjoy MAP21. Along with the music, it's a much more deliberately-paced level, compared to most of the level set. Sure, it's ugly, simplistic, you name it, and it looks like Sandy designed it after being up for probably about three days straight, but ehh.

 

MAP23 is a lot less fun for me. Cute gimmick, but it's kind of random chance in some aspects to get to the main part of the level, and even then it just feels like a slog. It takes away the one main advantage Doomguy has - speed and maneuverability - and it does not do it in a fun way at all. And while I do like "Them Bones", the legally-cleared Bobby Prince not-cover actually is somewhat annoying to me. It would've been a lot more interesting if they made it be something like a crazy rush to the exit where you're having to outrace a potential explosive barrel wave catching up to you.

 

MAP24... yeah, just fuck that map. It's in the same vein as MAP23 to me - a nice gimmick, but one that overstayed its welcome by being about half the map. Much like MAP23, have the gimmick be its last room (or even last third-ish of the level) and this gets way more interesting, but having almost half the level be "fall and die" is really not much fun.

 

It should be noted, however, that I'm not really a fan of most Sandy Petersen maps.

[MoreMending]

Map 21 isn't that bad, barrels o' fun however, I haven't even beaten, it's just really annoying and I can't even figure out a strategy to beat it, it feels like you're rolling 30 die and they all have to land on a 20, sure a FEW might land on that 20 but past those you're just dead.

Map 21 I died only one time because I didn't know that you could lower the platforms in the acid lake, and I was basically just staying around one area.

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

MAP21 is just sort of meh for me. It definitely feels a bit "off" and lacking in focus or direction, but I've never been all too repulsed by it. MAP24 I actually kind of love, it's probably my favourite Doom II map. I can agree with the MAP23 dislike though, after the initial spectacle of the mass of barrels wears off that one is just a total drag to play.

Edited January 17, 2022 by DisgruntledPorcupine

[RHhe82]

14 hours ago, Uncle 80 said:

The real stinker is map22.

Is this a common stance on MAP22? Because personally I find it one of the better maps of Doom 2, if not one of the best (especially in the last third, as Aika pointed out below).

Edited January 18, 2022 by RHhe82
Typo

[aika]

Map22 is one of the best maps of the 3rd episode IMO.

[Dark Pulse]

MAP22 ain't bad. Its biggest sin is that it reuses Dave D. Taylor Blues, but well, Doom II in a nutshell is "Oh yeah, that song's playing again."

 

Doom had a few repeats too, but way less.

[MoreMending]

Yeah map 22 isn't a bad map, but at some points I just blanked out on what I was supposed to be doing, and so I had to do a lot of searching, and kept saving before every fight.

[roadworx]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:27 AM, RHhe82 said:

Is this a common stance on MAP22? Because personally I find it one of the better maps of Doom 2, if not one of the best (especially in the last third, as Aika pointed out below).

no, i (and many others) personally loved map22. it's proto-plutonia

Edited January 20, 2022 by roadworx

[Captain Keen]

I also didn't hate map 22.

 

Honestly, the original Doom II maps are a mixed-to-bad bag for me, with some classics like 8, 10, 11, 17, 18, 20, 28, 29, but then a lot of clearly rushed and poorly designed maps. The city levels were mostly disappointing. The final boss was disappointing. The Hell levels for the most part were dreary and dark compared to the wonderful surreal and colorful vibes of Inferno. Doom II is special to me because it's a perfect template for building something better--a great set of weapons and monsters and aesthetics and overall FPS gameplay--but the actual maps themselves have not aged well (for the most part). I still think of the original games, Knee-Deep in the Dead holds up significantly better than any other Doom 1 episodes, Doom II, or TNT Evilution, with only Plutonia also having a pretty consistent level of quality. Knee-Deep is still fun to play in 2022, the rest feel dated and fan wads have done much more interesting things with the Doom tools. IMHO.

[cannonball]

Map21 is genuinely bad, awful texturing, virtually no cohesion (at least inferno felt like it had some sort of cohesive theme), the last room is probably the worst of any iwad map (one key is completely unnecessary because the gap between the bars is big enough to get through), it just feels rushed and poorly tested.

Map23 isn’t great but you accept it for being a gimmick map, it isn’t so bad when you know what you are doing.

Map24 is a map that you absolutely despise on the first play through, but grows on you with every replay. You slowly grow to appreciate the eerie quietness, the large amount of optional/secret areas and the ledges are not so bad. It is one of my favourite maps and unlike barrels o’ fun it really sticks in your head for being so different compared to the rest of the maps.

[Jokin]

Funnily enough, if I had to pick one of them, I would choose to play map24 over the other two. The last room of map21 made no sense to me. Map23 is... eh, I kept running out of ammo, but I did enjoy the barrel setups at the beginning.

Map22 was actually pretty good and I liked it, although the beginning seemed a bit hard for me.

[Maximum Matt]

My goddamn two cents:

• 21 is the worst map in D2, ol' Sandy was off his game on this one
• 23 is an awesome gimmick map, kinda feels like a secret map because of all the barrel shenanigans and the Spider Mastermind/aracnotron crossfire battle ("she's being killed by her own children!!"), they should've made this one and Tricks And Traps the secret maps, tossed the Wolf3d levels and made two replacements
• I can't hate 24 because it looks so huge and I love run-jumping down those big red pillars in that one part
• 22 is American's best map in my opinion, looks awesome, is compact and hardcore

[supdol4944]

I will give grades and difficulty grades to the maps.

 

MAP21: Nirvana

 

I seriously don't know why so many people hate this map. It's over quickly. It's not a bad map, but not a good map.

 

Grade: C

Difficulty: D-

 

MAP23: Barrels O'(not) Fun

  

Two weeks ago i said that this is a fun map, and easy because you can run past enemies.

But... i replayed doom 2 a few days ago, and my opinion changed a lot.

This map has ugly design, very small rooms with pain elementals choking the air with a billion lost souls (because i play on PrBoom+, obviously)

And if you want to go out to the megasphere, you can't, because hordes of pinkies will eat you alive. 

Oh, and the music. It's like Kitchen Ace: very annoying to listen to, and very bad.

This level is pathetic, screw it.

 

Grade: F

Difficulty: A

 

MAP24: The Chasm

 

F*CK

THIS

MAP.

It's so bad, that it's even worse than map30. How about ugly design and a f*cking annoying tightrope walking? Here's the chasm!

The tech base next to a poison chasm (which is unavoidable, ofcourse), is a very random design in my opinion.

Like, literally, who loves a secret where you need to look in the alcoves to find chaingunners?

And the pinky secret is just trash. They are teleporting out and you can't even see them in that fcking dark section.

And the slimefall room is ugly, too. 

And all of these are supposed to be in hell? What's this?

If the world loves MAP24, i am against the world.

 

Grade: F-

Difficulty: C

 

[GarrettChan]

What, Map23 is more difficulty than Map24? I don't know what to say.

[Stupid Bunny]

I also think using letter grades is a weird and misleading way of rating difficulty. Does A mean it’s really easy or really hard? Does this imply there’s a direct relationship between difficulty and quality? I don’t know about this.

 

Anyway I’ve said it before in like a million threads but I like The Chasm. I enjoy its spaciousness and the feel of clinging to the cliff edges as I navigate around. I never minded the mix of texture styles either. The tightroping isn’t the greatest but it’s manageable and I appreciate the attempt at something different. I see why not everybody likes it but definitely never related to it.

 

MAP23 is fine. The barrel gimmick is fun enough.  I like the way the opening area gets reused and the map opens up there with the pain elementals and such. Some good sandboxing with Sandy in here.

 

MAP21 probably is my least favorite Doom II map. This is not a hot or interesting take of course, I think I mostly feel it’s a weak introduction to Hell. At least E3M1 establishes the infernal aesthetic effectively. I know I just said I don’t mind the idiosyncratic MAP24 aesthetic either but I think it creates a better sense of mood than does MAP21 in which the texturing simply feels random to me. I don’t always mind minimal/abstract geometry either but the two in conjunction make Nirvana feel slapped together and give it zero sense of place. I’d probably like it a lot better if it were given a fresh coat of paint and a bit more creative lighting, to lean into the unsettling and surreal aspect of Hell as opposed to just feeling like A Game Level.

I have no opinion about MAP22, it looks good, i don’t play it much and I think it’s only coming up here because it’s sandwiched between the other more controversial maps

[Biz!]

Nirvana is boring, Barrels o' fun sucks ( fuck pain elementals and spider demons), and The Chasm is enjoyable.

[Andromeda]

4 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

What, Map23 is more difficulty than Map24? I don't know what to say.

MAP24 is dead easy, MAP23 is a little bit tougher.

[GarrettChan]

58 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

MAP24 is dead easy, MAP23 is a little bit tougher.

lol, not trusted :)