Does anyone miss the hyper detailed DM wads that weren't fun for DM?

[Dusty_Rhodes]

Silly question, I know. "Why would I miss wads that aren't good?"

 

Well, lately I've been exploring Gothic DM1 and 2, Slaughter DM, Crucified Dreams, and Eternal DM in single player. Everything I've heard about these wads in regard to their DM gameplay has been uniformly negative. It's a commonplace to hate on these level sets. My perspective is very much a vain one, but I wish there were more wads like this. Sometimes the detail went too far; Gothic99 is headache inducing and way too over the top, as nice as it looks. But at the same time, these wads were a chance for level designers to really go nuts with vanilla tricks and Boom features, musicians to make amazing midis, and texture artists to really show off their work (including the iD and Raven guys lol, a lot of Quake and Hexen textures are in these wads). And most of the maps aren't bad, just a little cramped.

I love the selfish confidence to make a map set solely to flex your creative muscles. I also love running through these wads in single player and marveling at the beautiful rooms and linedef work, creative use of midtextures, utilization of Boom fake floors and ceilings, colormaps, and dummy sectors, and vanilla bridges. Something about these maps are very captivating.

 

I wish there were more efforts for something like this nowadays. Especially if it goes the route of @Doomkid and team's excellent Bourg DM. That wad has really fun single player encounters while also being a blast to DM in. Even if the wad was only DM based, I'd still like to see some thing like Crucified Dreams today. I would've stayed in @xdude_gamer's Gothic21 project, but my plate is really full Doom - wise lately. I also lack experience in UDMF mode. But when the plate clears eventually, I would love to have a CP using Gothic DM and maybe Eternal Doom textures, maybe a new status bar and custom dehacked weapons like Slaughter DM was going to have.

 

Side note, the midis for all mentioned wads are really good. I've been listening to some of the Gothic DM and Slaughter DM midis, cool stuff. Oh and if you want a classic DM wad that looks good and plays well, go for Execution Deathmatch. One of the best.

 

Thanks for letting me ramble, I hope I don't sound crazy.

[Doomkid]

Firstly I just want to say that 90% of what’s good about Bourgeois was Decay’s doing, and at least 70% of the actual work was done by him, it’s very much his baby! I helped ofc - a few maps, the DEH, the Titlepic and some music - but I just want to set the record straight heh.

 

Anyway, by modern standards, I’d say these wads really aren’t over-detailed. There’s a good number of decent maps in Gothic DM, and even more “good ideas, just not executed perfectly” due to bad spawn placement, annoying snag spots and imo questionable routing between areas (at times).

 

Most maps in Gothic 1 are just a few changes from being damn good, and usually these are pretty small changes. Stuff like snags, cramped design and semi-random weapon handouts didn’t matter quite as much when the player limit was 4 and the overall speed of Doom DM play was slower, but over time in the old Doom Connector, ZDaemon, and Skulltag scene, it just became obvious why these were pretty close to the bottom of the deck of “popular DM wads”.
 

Even most of the plain-Jane stuff like Greenwar, Mancerx, Dweller, “select” Dwango maps etc tended to feel better to move around in, have better spawn placement, and more logical weapon placement, despite using 98% stock assets. Then there was UDM3 and UDMX which had all the best gameplay elements of the old batch, but with lots of cool new textures and lots of personality.

 

The Gothic wads had this thing where everything from the music, to the textures, to the sounds was super well selected and thought out, and every map clearly has loads of elbow grease - but then the actual “how good is this to zip around in and how sensible is the weapon placement” aspects just got shafted in the process - at least, often enough to stand out. 

 

Heck, even Execution and Brit10/11 have way better layouts and flow than the “Gothic batch” while still dipping their toe into the Gothic visual theme (it’s definitely not whole hog with it though). If the BFG abundance is too annoying, which is fair enough, there’s an ancient wad that swaps them with Plasma rifles, and some other “gimmick” BFG replacement wads too.

 

Even warts and all, I wouldn’t call these wads “bad”. (Well, with the exception of Cru Dreams.. Playing that was just not at all fun for me, even though I usually enjoy DMing.) They’re more akin to poop-spackled bars of gold, lol. Brilliant in ways, but marred. Conversely, continuing this bizarre little analogy, the DM wads that floated to the top and stayed there over the last 25 years would be more like bars of copper - not as extravagant as Gothic - but without the poopy bits as well.

 

All in all, they inspired a lot of great things, and they had a lot of their own inherent awesomeness..  but fragging there just wasn’t as fun for most DMers, due to small mapping flaws with big run-on effects.. and thus ends my thesis on the Gothic DM wads!

 

EDIT: When you said “overdetailed unfun DM maps”, my mind immediately went to a truckload of ancient “Skulltag-alike” DM wads that were the rage for a hot minute in like 2005-2006. Aggressively micro-detailed with as many pointless slopes, deep water and coloured sectors as one could ever want!
 

The only examples I can think of are the two that were actually pretty good: the finalised versions of the Skulltag maps, and that ASDFJKL6 wad with the really dumb name but cool levels. If you’ve played those, just imagine them with all the fancy effects, but shit gameplay, heh. I can’t remember the bad ones because they were in vogue so long ago now..! I bet Tango, Xaser, Ralphis and a few other fellow ancient fucks know the types I’m blabbin’ about.

[msx2plus]

i'm a huge fan of Crucified Dreams and Gothic 99 in particular. i don't even DM in 'em, i just like to meander around and gawk at the architecture and absurdly clever geometry and midtex usage. when i first loaded up Crucified Dreams i couldn't stop laughing at how comically overdone some of it was, it was love at first sight.

 

sometimes i just like to exist in an inspiring place with good atmosphere, and these tick the boxes for sure.

[Doomkid]

“Gothic 99: The most non-deathmatch-related fun you’ll have in a DM wad!”

[Astronomical]

After seeing where hyperdetail has gotten us (And it's effect on my computer).  Color me unimpressed by gothic dm.  I have only dmed on it once and it wasn't fun.  From what I have heard from Gothic dm 2 and Gothic 99, I have no reason to subject myself to them in a dm capacity.  My issue with greenwar is just that it hogs all of the attention from other dm wads.  

[Dusty_Rhodes]

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

EDIT: When you said “overdetailed unfun DM maps”, my mind immediately went to a truckload of ancient “Skulltag-alike” DM wads that were the rage for a hot minute in like 2005-2006. Aggressively micro-detailed with as many pointless slopes, deep water and coloured sectors as one could ever want!
 

The only examples I can think of are the two that were actually pretty good: the finalised versions of the Skulltag maps, and that ASDFJKL6 wad with the really dumb name but cool levels. If you’ve played those, just imagine them with all the fancy effects, but shit gameplay, heh. I can’t remember the bad ones because they were in vogue so long ago now..! I bet Tango, Xaser, Ralphis and a few other fellow ancient fucks know the types I’m blabbin’ about.

Very good points. I'll make sure Decay know I love his work too :D

 

Anyway, I wasn't around in the Doom scene in the early 2000s, so the golden age of Skulltag is foreign to me. I've only gotten into DM more recently, and I feel a little less engaged by wads like Dwango 5 and Greenway. They're very fun, but I love that weird aspect of the Gothic Batch as you called them. They have this x factor that makes them enjoyable to me in a weird way if just exploring them in single player. You're definitely right about them having great selection, gorgeous textures, talented mappers, and great midi artists.

 

And I do rather like some of the Gothic DM 1 maps too, they just aren't perfect.

 

6 hours ago, msx2plus said:

i'm a huge fan of Crucified Dreams and Gothic 99 in particular. i don't even DM in 'em, i just like to meander around and gawk at the architecture and absurdly clever geometry and midtex usage. when i first loaded up Crucified Dreams i couldn't stop laughing at how comically overdone some of it was, it was love at first sight.

 

sometimes i just like to exist in an inspiring place with good atmosphere, and these tick the boxes for sure.

I think this is what's attractive to me. I love just being in a place that has a unique feeling to it. The atmosphere of these wads feel rooted in Doom, Quake, and Hexen, which already have a great mood to them. But then you throw in the music and custom textures and it's this completely new thing, nothing like it.

 

53 minutes ago, Astronomical said:

After seeing where hyperdetail has gotten us (And it's effect on my computer).  Color me unimpressed by gothic dm.  I have only dmed on it once and it wasn't fun.  From what I have heard from Gothic dm 2 and Gothic 99, I have no reason to subject myself to them in a dm capacity.  My issue with greenwar is just that it hogs all of the attention from other dm wads.  

Totally fair. Gothic 99, I've never actually had the chance to DM in. Looks terrible lol.

[LexiMax]

I apologize in advance to Nick Baker for what I'm about to say.

 

I feel like SurgeDM and Surge 2 are good examples of this.  They're perhaps not as "hyper" detailed as Gothic, but they look great for DM maps released in 98 and 04 respectively, with neat detailing, lighting and custom texturing.  So what's the problem?  Well, the original Surge is not on Wad Archive because of a naming conflict, but you can look up Surge 2, and a quick perusal soon reveals the main issue - a significant number of maps have mirrored, flipped, and copy-pasted geometry.

 

It's understandable to have one or two of these types of maps in a given DM WAD, but when they make up the majority of the maplist, it quickly wears out my welcome.  A bad layout might be bad, but at least it's an actual layout.  Symmetrical maps are more like a quarter of a layout stretched to fill an entire play area, and after playing 6-7 in a row it feels more like I've been staring at a blank wall for an hour.

Edited January 28, 2022 by AlexMax
Reword a few things

[Big Ol Billy]

 

11 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

I love the selfish confidence to make a map set solely to flex your creative muscles. I also love running through these wads in single player and marveling at the beautiful rooms and linedef work, creative use of midtextures, utilization of Boom fake floors and ceilings, colormaps, and dummy sectors, and vanilla bridges. Something about these maps are very captivating.

 

Maybe this is another point in favor of exploring monsterless/walking simulator-type projects in Doom? Dobu and JP LeBreton have probably tread this ground most extensively, but I suspect there's a lot more that could be done with the basic format. We've got some great visual stylists in the community, and it would be interesting to see some more projects where the brief is basically just "make something that looks and feels cool to run/walk around in."

[xdude_gamer]

My Gothic21 is kind of my channeling of these WADs in a done-right way. There's so much to explore but gameplay-wise they kinda suck. I love detailing, even if it goes overboard. Those levels were like UDMF back in the 1990s.

[Decay]

Short answer: No, not at all. Those maps suck and looks can't save them.

 

Long answer: No, not at all. Those maps suck and looks can't save them. However there is a very prominent strain of "looks are distracting" that runs in the pvp community, which is true to some degree, but is hard to balance well with layout and thing placement. Often dm maps get made by people who are either 1: not dm players or 2: bad players which skews their point of view. Players who are technically competent, particularly in 1v1, can see what makes a map good and helpful for flow. Balancing interesting, good game play with cohesive good looks for fun, good results is not easy. There's also another problem, and that frankly is dwango worship. Worshipping ugly-ass maps (of which 95% don't play well at all and less than 10 out of 250 maps are memorable) leads people to make ugly-ass maps. Bottom line is most people don't want to put in the necessary effort for such maps, and to be honest the community isn't worth that effort (I say that yet still do it anyway).

 

18 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

I love the selfish confidence to make a map set solely to flex your creative muscles. I also love running through these wads in single player and marveling at the beautiful rooms and linedef work, creative use of midtextures, utilization of Boom fake floors and ceilings, colormaps, and dummy sectors, and vanilla bridges. Something about these maps are very captivating.

 

I wish there were more efforts for something like this nowadays. Especially if it goes the route of @Doomkid and team's excellent Bourg DM. That wad has really fun single player encounters while also being a blast to DM in. Even if the wad was only DM based, I'd still like to see some thing like Crucified Dreams today. I would've stayed in @xdude_gamer's Gothic21 project, but my plate is really full Doom - wise lately. I also lack experience in UDMF mode. But when the plate clears eventually, I would love to have a CP using Gothic DM and maybe Eternal Doom textures, maybe a new status bar and custom dehacked weapons like Slaughter DM was going to have.

For the first paragraph, part of the problem is that often the authors forget what they are mapping for. It's not even being selfish, it's just being stupid. You can do all those things if you make a solid layout first.

 

For the second, there's another pitfall. Stop drawing inspiration from old wads. Find other inspirations, from art, from architecture, from literally anything else. When I made my NeonDM maps, I drew a loose inspiration from SpaceDM9 that was primarily from memory, rather than actually playing the wad (because it's unplayable, sorry Essel :(), for the AeonDM maps, nothing but super vague ideas from finding textures around. Set yourself loose from the theming and build something that is uniquely you instead of crafting too often repeated poor mimicry of something that needs to stay dead.

 

SP Doom stays fresh because of constant new content. In the past, DM stayed fresh with new content too. But that's dried up and much ends up being silly homages with poor layouts and the same old textures. Do something new.

[Doomkid]

3 hours ago, Decay said:

Stop drawing inspiration from old wads. Set yourself loose from the theming and build something that is uniquely you instead of crafting too often repeated poor mimicry of something that needs to stay dead.

 

SP Doom stays fresh because of constant new content. In the past, DM stayed fresh with new content too. But that's dried up and much ends up being silly homages with poor layouts and the same old textures. Do something new.

*proceeds to make 6 donut-shaped maps textured exclusively in STARTAN3 and names it Decay's Paradise.pk3*

 

Even aside from the solid point of trying something new being a good way to "break creative shackles", there's another point buried in here that I'd like to dig out: Most of my SP/Coop oriented projects, be they solo works or community projects, also tend to be "throwbacks to the classics" in one regard or another, much the same way the DM content I was pushing out heavily from 2013 - 2016 was. In the world of SP/Coop Doom wads there continues to be a market for this, because it's just "one slice of the pie" - there's plenty of modern-mindset wads being made as well, extravagant gameplay mods, and lots of other types of content to help balance the appeal.

 

Conversely, DM megawads, especially ones that rise above "my first doodle", are very rare by comparison. For every 1,000 SP maps posted on here, we also get a single, solitary DM map. Ever since DM moved to the backseat of my mapping time a few years ago, I've still of course kept my eyes on the DM scene. Where we used to get a well-rounded selection of DM mapping styles 10-15 years ago and in MUCH greater numbers, we are now reduced to a drip-feed of content at all. Of what little we do get (that isn't just practice scribbles by a learning mapper), pretty much all of it is Dwango-or-similar homages.

 

I think between the lack of content outright, and the homogeneity with what little is there, Decay is aggressively tired of wads grounded in an "old, outdated" mapping mindset that clearly has room for improvement.

 

I think that's all reasonable, but at the same time, with how anemic the content flow is.. I'm just glad to see new content at all! @xdude_gamer's idea of taking some visual inspiration from Gothic while avoiding the flaws is good, while gothic-themed maps aren't rare as such, they're pretty much not being produced at all anymore, which sucks.

[Ru5tK1ng]

8 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I think between the lack of content outright, and the homogeneity with what little is there, Decay is aggressively tired of wads grounded in an "old, outdated" mapping mindset that clearly has room for improvement.

 

I think that's all reasonable, but at the same time, with how anemic the content flow is.. I'm just glad to see new content at all! @xdude_gamer's idea of taking some visual inspiration from Gothic while avoiding the flaws is good, while gothic-themed maps aren't rare as such, they're pretty much not being produced at all anymore, which sucks.

 

Actually, no content at all is probably a better route than being presented with mapsets that recycle old, uninspired ideas we've seen hundreds of times before. I'd rather wait patiently for new stuff that's actually fresh or attempting to introduce new ideas on old concepts than be flooded with a bunch of 90s throwback wads that are about as hip as wearing t-shirts 4 sizes too big. There's nothing wrong with liking or enjoying the classics or being inspired by them. The problem is when authors just make lazy carbon copies and try to pass it off as something super noteworthy. It's really just a cop out at that point. Don't sell yourselves short, you can be better or unique compared to your inspirations.

 

Gothic maps aren't being made anymore because it's nearly been done to death. Once you've seen a handful of gothic style maps, you've seen them all in terms of visuals. But I'd rather take a gothic styled mapset over stock vanilla or Dwango styled.

 

 

[ChopBlock223]

I absolutely adore Crucified Dreams' visuals, they're absolutely gothtastic, and I really wish there were single player .wads with this aesthetic. Music is superb too.

 

9 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I think that's all reasonable, but at the same time, with how anemic the content flow is.. I'm just glad to see new content at all! @xdude_gamer's idea of taking some visual inspiration from Gothic while avoiding the flaws is good, while gothic-themed maps aren't rare as such, they're pretty much not being produced at all anymore, which sucks.

Do you mean gothic DM maps, or just gothic maps in general? Because I can think of a bunch in recent years.

[Doomkid]

I meant in the realm of DM mapping specifically. In SP it’s a dime a dozen theme by now, and I suppose if you tally up all the DM wads over the years the theme isn’t in short supply either - but it’s been a number of years since I’ve seen a new DM wad using that theme.

 

Also activity is always preferable to a lack of activity - if the goal is increased numbers of players and wads, it’s more a statement of fact than an opinion, really. If various themed DM wads start coming out left and right, even if they aren’t world-shatteringly original, it will objectively mean more people in servers and more of a thrust to keep mapping in future. A man can hope!

[CBM]

I havent had much experience with DM or coop in Doom but I like detailed maps

 

How can I get started with DM and/or coop in DOOM?

[Hazel-Rah]

I would also love to get more DM experience but there doesn't seem to be that many DM servers running at all :(

[Doomkid]

Do you both know how to use Doom Explorer with Zandronum/ZDaemon/Odamex? I see a ZDaemon deathmatch with 4 people in it right now, with really oldschool "Doomy" settings. Check this vid if you need any help, it's only 4 mins!

[msx2plus]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:56 AM, Ru5tK1ng said:

as hip as wearing t-shirts 4 sizes too big

honestly sounds dope as hell, and comfy to boot
 

i think the idea of being "unique" is kinda wack, what with nothing being unique. what you can be is honest and unfiltered. the upside is cooler work gets released, the downside is that a lot of that cool work bounces off people for not being to their tastes or fitting in with what has been prescribed as "the right way to do it". can't win 'em all and forcing any innovation is a quick way to burn out and be miserable, you just end up beating yourself up for doing shit that's been done before. so who cares, do what's been done before until you get to the point where something new happens through all of that experience and practice.

 

imo this issue is largely cyclical: niche community with niche interest that requires server admins and players to make the work worthwhile, so nobody ends up playing/making for it, repeat forever.

[Decay]

That posts really reads as someone who doesn't know much about the multiplayer scene and personalities nor PvP mapping history. The need for server admins is completely bypassed by tspg and similar services. Being unique is misconstrued, as it is primarily meant to be "different" as opposed to be truly avant garde. The long history of PvP in doom also means there is highly refined play happening; the reasons old style sets don't work anymore mostly revolve around the fact they don't suit the existing playerbase, so things like pistol spawns REALLY don't work. There is also a huge misconception of what makes a map good, where people experience it with 8 people and it's good time because the pace is so fast you can easily overlook flaws. You also underestimate how lazy the mapping side of the mp community is, and the preference to settle for ease and mediocrity rather than step outside their comfort zone and actually put in some effort.

[CBM]

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Do you both know how to use Doom Explorer with Zandronum/ZDaemon/Odamex? I see a ZDaemon deathmatch with 4 people in it right now, with really oldschool "Doomy" settings. Check this vid if you need any help, it's only 4 mins!

Thanks! I will definetly be trying this soon.

[Doomkid]

12 hours ago, msx2plus said:

honestly sounds dope as hell, and comfy to boot

Legit perfect description of "familiar but refined" turf like Hobomaster's Pyrrhic. Feels right at home for fans of Dwango, but should feel right at home for players who need more refined layouts/weapon placement/spawn placement as well. Perfect example of a wad that is super fun, bridges "the gap", and didn't overhaul multiplayer mapping as we know it (honestly an absurd expectation of the average DM wad, and a recipe to turn newcomers away with the revolting stench of elitism)

 

Quote

do what's been done before until you get to the point where something new happens through all of that experience and practice.

This is wisdom right here. Spoken like any mapper who has been at it for a while, and didn't start out making 5 star material (every^* mapper fits there heh, some just lie about it.   ^*Well, maybe 0.00001% actually do make gold their first try, but let me tell you that doesn't describe any popular mapper in MP lol)

 

Quote

niche community with niche interest that requires server admins and players to make the work worthwhile, so nobody ends up playing/making for it, repeat forever.

There's a degree of truth to this, but the sad reality is that what few people do try to dip their toe into DM mapping don't seem to be receptive to feedback or the idea of change. Part of why "it needs to be revolutionary to be worth existing" is a bad standard is because being around as long as I have, I've seen it all before. You will not be showing me something new in the realm of DM mapping much as it may be desired, heh. So it's an untenable standard.

 

So with that said, myself (and others) have done a whole lot of "what not to do" type research out in the DM fields. Preferences, hopes, dreams and desires aside, certain types of maps/mapping errors/etc WILL clear out servers without fail. Bar none! You can do any theme, any texturing style, and music style to accompany them.. But, just as one of hundreds of examples: pistol starts in a 64-wide hallway where you have to do a 90 degree turn to get into the field of play will ALWAYS clear out a server - I mean, from 8-16 people down to 2-0 in seconds flat!

 

So, naturally, when you see new mappers and you tell them "hey, this objectively blows butthole and will empty out your server and make no one ever play this wad again out in public" it sucks to see them ignore the advice, release the wad, and things play out exactly as I knew they would, from watching the MP half of the community for so many years and getting intrinsically tuned to what works and what doesn't.

 

I'm talking about what works "for the masses" I mean - the several-dozen Doomers out there who still DM with regularity. Maybe like 3 others will actually like the "bad mapping choices" in a new wad or their own wad, but at that point you're marketing to a niche within a niche. Most people want "returns" on their time spent mapping, but they won't get it if they don't listen to the "10 deathmatch commandments" (I don't want to rally off 10 "must-avoids" in DM mapping at this moment, but I did make a vid containing 7 of 'em, and I guarantee Decay could lol. but, I don't want this rant to become infinite!)

 

10 hours ago, Decay said:

The long history of PvP in doom also means there is highly refined play happening; the reasons old style sets don't work anymore mostly revolve around the fact they don't suit the existing playerbase, so things like pistol spawns REALLY don't work.

This describes "actual old sets" more than old style sets. I mean, Pyrrhic and even Bourgeois are "old style" to a degree but they still give you a fkn gun to defend yourself with out the gate, and avoid annoying BS like nonsensical spawns that completely plagued old wads.

 

"Old style" sets work perfectly when those aforementioned 10 7 DM commandments get listened to. You can have a plain-but-competent texturing style and badass layouts and end up with a "modern classic" on your hands.

 

I think the moral of what I'm getting at is: unlike with SP Doom where every challenge can find some kind of market and you only need 1 player at any time to experience a wad, deathmatch mapping requires a sense of "what the people want" and a mind for the community's tastes inherently. It's due to the "group play" nature of DM.

 

Think of it this way: You could enjoy playing in your own sandbox full of rusty nails by yourself all day long, but the next sandbox over without any rusty nails is always going to have more people in it. When one of the other kids comes over and says "hey, this sandbox sucks because it's full of rusty nails", most DM mappers choose to justify the rusty nails rather than just accepting the fact and putting in the 15 mins of elbow grease to get rid of them.

 

Sure, once the rusty nails are out, the differences between the two become fewer - they become less "unique" - but at the same time you still end up with something more enjoyable for the masses, which matters when it's something you simply can't play with 1 person. At that point you can use textures, music, even sounds and new sprite replacements or custom weapons to give your wad "it's own appeal" rather than relying on the "rusty nails" (crummy outdated/never IN-dated DM mapping elements).

 

What a spiel. Hopefully someone reads it!

[Denim Destroyer]

Here is some insight from someone who has a personal vendetta against clutter in video games. It is not fun or fair to die from a piece of detailing. If I die in a game then it should be due to my skill or lack thereof, not because I got stuck on a wall or something else obstructive. If you look at the type of wads people find popular today compared to twenty years ago when GothicDM came out, it is quite clear that people realized less is more when it comes to detailing in Doom. Sure you can make a room full boxes of various sizes and have support beams along walls but why bother if everyone hates them?

[msx2plus]

6 hours ago, Decay said:

doesn't know much about the multiplayer scene and personalities nor PvP mapping history

extremely true, i've only DM'd a handful of times and have known other mp scenes better than doom's and i doubt those ideas can be projected onto it the same way.

 

54 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

most DM mappers choose to justify the rusty nails rather than just accepting the fact and putting in the 15 mins of elbow grease to get rid of them

people that cling to a thing (especially anything niche or "dying") tend to have a hard time being critical of it, which kinda stinks because it just prevents progress. always critically look at the things you love! it's good fun to bathe in nostalgia from time to time, but justifying the flaws out of your endearment to them isn't helping anybody.

 

47 minutes ago, Denim Destroyer said:

Sure you can make a room full boxes of various sizes and have support beams along walls but why bother if everyone hates them?

imo if you're going to put a bunch of 2-4 unit bevels and shit on your walls, you owe it to the player to draw a huge blocking linedef all the way across the gaps between them so they can't get caught on barely visible corners lol

[Hazel-Rah]

16 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Do you both know how to use Doom Explorer with Zandronum/ZDaemon/Odamex? I see a ZDaemon deathmatch with 4 people in it right now, with really oldschool "Doomy" settings. Check this vid if you need any help, it's only 4 mins!

Thank you! I got all set up and joined one of the Doomshack DM servers, amazingly, a few people actually joined! :) The bots are a pretty nice feature too.

[Ru5tK1ng]

On 1/30/2022 at 4:30 PM, msx2plus said:

i think the idea of being "unique" is kinda wack, what with nothing being unique. what you can be is honest and unfiltered.

That's actually quite what I mean. If someone is honest and unfiltered they are being themselves which means they are being unique, unless they are trying to be something they're not (bad idea).

 

On 1/30/2022 at 4:30 PM, msx2plus said:

 can't win 'em all and forcing any innovation is a quick way to burn out and be miserable, you just end up beating yourself up for doing shit that's been done before. so who cares, do what's been done before until you get to the point where something new happens through all of that experience and practice. 

No one is forcing anyone to be innovative and if anything it's just a suggestion or a direction to consider. I'd rather see newer mappers attempt branch out and try making a gothic style map, future tech, etc. regardless if it's been before. I would rather not see newer mappers just make dwango1 over and over again. If a brand new mapper wants to make a 90s style map, then sure that's fine. But if that mapper continues to release wad after wad of the same thing, then trying to be a bit more innovative or unique is probably some advice worth considering.

 

On 1/30/2022 at 4:30 PM, msx2plus said:

imo this issue is largely cyclical: niche community with niche interest that requires server admins and players to make the work worthwhile, so nobody ends up playing/making for it, repeat forever.

Not sure what you mean by this. Niche means nothing, people will make content if they choose to regardless of community size. Server admins are a dime a dozen and have come and gone before.

 

As long as there are players to enjoy someone's work, that's worthwhile enough.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ru5tK1ng
typo

[msx2plus]

word, that makes sense. i've hung around a lot of people that have been frustrated with anything that isn't totally forward-thinking or innovative in the past and that admittedly did a number on how much i read into words like "unique". the less cynical outlook is def appreciated.

[dyshoria]

detail is good but if you add to much it can make it less fun