monster types for different encounters

[CBM]

so I have been trying to make encoutner type boxes for each classic doom monster and to put them in boxes... this is what I have:

 

but I could use input and help to complete this...

 

(up - monsters on a ledge, down - monsters on the "ground" or in the "air")

 

how many types of encounters can a doom level have and what monsters are usually relevant for each type

and how about difficulties... even with just vanilla easy, medium and hard difficulties, it can be hard to determine what monsters to use

 

I know that hellknight can be used as an easier version of the baron and maybe the imp as the easiest??

 

please help

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by CBM

[Jaccident]

I’d probably put arachnotrons in the sniper sections as they work well as turrets that shoot a barrage of projectiles at you, especially on ledges.

 

Also, replacing a caco with a pain elemental is an interesting way to add challenge if you’re going from HMP to UV, although obviously this won’t work in all cases.

[CBM]

thanks for this feedback

 

ok so spiders as turrets/snipers and

pain elementals as upgraded cacos

 

maybe also cacos as upgraded lost souls?

 

so ground troops projectile : (easy/medium/hard)

lost soul/caco/pain elemental

imp/hellknight/baron

hellknight/baron/archvile?

 

then ledge projectile snipers:

imp/hellknight/arachnotron?

 

or?

[Jaccident]

4 hours ago, CBM said:

maybe also cacos as upgraded lost souls? 

I probably wouldn't do this one as there's a massive health difference between the two, alongside having mechanics that are quite different to each other.

[CBM]

5 minutes ago, Jaccident said:

I probably wouldn't do this one as there's a massive health difference between the two, alongside having mechanics that are quite different to each other.

so actually... an expansion of the monster roster is needed in order to make monsters that can fit both all encounter types as well as all difficulty levels?

 

[Shepardus]

Arch-viles really should have their own treatment.

[CBM]

Im hoping some kind of system could become of all this, so that all can benefit from knowledge about how to use the monsters

[Nefelibeta]

Hmm, why not explain every monster in details then. You don't need all these charts and stuff since there are doom monsters that are very unique in terms of design. And perhaps give some examples of how to use them properly.(for instance, a specific fight in a map)

[Maribo]

A system is too rigid, really. Sniper posts can have just about anything, depending on the way you structure the area. I think it's a lot better to think about what exactly monsters can do *on their own* and then what they can do in tandem with other monsters. For example, you put a roaming Archvile down in a fight and it's got some degree of area denial that is a bit mitigated due to to more likely infighting chance, plus the threat of reviving chunky enemies that will cost you more ammo and movement space. However, if you put this vile in a turret tower or something, you're trading off the revival effects for a more static area denial: if you can't kill the vile, stepping out of designated cover spots is more dangerous. Perhaps you have a lot of revenants or pinkies in this room as well, something that would encourage the player to move from cover to cover without spending too long out in the open.

[Pegleg]

1 minute ago, CBM said:

Im hoping some kind of system could become of all this, so that all can benefit from knowledge about how to use the monsters

 

You may want to consider reading the Monster Placement Guide. It may help you flesh out some of this list.

 

Here are a few of my thoughts:

 

When I think of an enemy placed as a sniper, I think of a monster either somewhat distant or that isn't immediately obvious. You're preoccupied with another situation and you don't notice them until they start hurting you (and maybe then it still takes you a minute to find them). They may also have a relatively limited view of the area, due to being somewhat concealed. For snipers, any ground-based monster that can hit you from a distance works, but some work better than others. Hitscanners work well as snipers, as do imps and even revenants (sniper with a homing rocket--that's a bit mean). In my opinion, hell knights, barons, mancubi, arachnotrons, cyberdemons, and spider masterminds have too many hit points and/or are too big to be good as snipers. I suppose a hell knight wouldn't make a bad sniper, particularly one that was intended to remain a threat for awhile.

 

Turrets, on the other hand, are obvious. They are monsters that are on a pillar, usually somewhere quite noticeable. They're not trying to be inconspicuous, and they generally have a very wide view on the area, if not completely 360 degrees. They can hurt you, but they're also quite useful for area denial. Turreted monsters force you to keep moving through an area. Any ground-based monster that can hit you from a distance works well as a turret, including the cyberdemon and SMM. The SMM just requires a lot of space.

 

Cacodemons could function as either turrets or snipers, but with the caveat that you'd have to confine them in some way (for example, put them in a cage). Pain elementals would require a set-up where they were confined without using monster-blocking lines. Since pain elementals are 56 units tall (according to the wiki) perhaps a 64 unit high space with a little wall around it that left a 48 unit opening to shoot through (such as with a floor raised by 8 units and ceiling lowered by 8 units) would work well, allowing you to have a lost soul-firing sniper/turret.

 

I agree with others that have said that archviles deserve to be in a category by themselves for their resurrection ability. For instance, there is no other enemy that can serve to ruin your day as much as an archvile set loose in a room that you have just spent time (and ammo) clearing. If you don't notice them and take care of them soon, you'll have a whole new wave of monsters assaulting you. That would also be a nice way (for a mapper, but not for a player) to repopulate a map that required backtracking.

[CBM]

1 hour ago, Pegleg said:

 

You may want to consider reading the Monster Placement Guide. It may help you flesh out some of this list.

 

Thanks for the link

 

I like the part about custom monsters as well, but now I feel like I need a guide on how to make worthwile custom monsters... I suppose one could just clone decorate stuff from realm667 for decorate definitions for custom monsters

 

I do think that if you like me, wants 3d monsters, then it CAN make sense to make a "custom monster" that is just one of the regular doom monsters but with different visuals... for example.. a 3d model of a rocket weilding soldier girl as a standin for a revenant but with the same stats as a revenant

 

I've made Orion skins for some of the monsters in Enjays Genetech for example and I plan on using the rocket girl as an orion soldier that takes on the role of the vanilla revenant

 

however, it will be tough to explain why a humaniod has all those hitpoints... maybe she should be an imp replacement instead?

 

same with guards that have pistols, guards with shotguns and guards with machineguns etc..

 

so...something like this

 

rocket girl -> revenant

pistol guy -> zombie

shotgun guy -> sergeant

machinegun guy -> chaingunner

heavy machine gunner -> ss guy

worker -> demon (unarmed)

scientist -> maybe imp if given a fireball attack?

giant spider -> maybe arachnotron if given a plasma attack?

 

OR

 

rocket girl -> imp (fireball becomes a rocket instead)

pistol guy -> zombie

shotgun guy -> sergeant

machinegun guy -> chaingunner

heavy machine gunner -> ss guy

attack dog -> demon and spectre?

giant spider -> maybe arachnotron if given a plasma attack?

some kind of robot maybe? enjay has a big robot in genetech that might fit the bill -> revenant

 

then there are all the other monsters like spider master mind, cyberdemon, baron, hellknight, ...

 

then there are the guys that are different, like soldiers with super shotguns, soldiers riding animals or robot animals, strogg, space marines, etc

 

 

some doom monsters drops weapons, what is the deal on that? a monster can drop weapons or ammo or supplies or nothing... but its hard to decide what mosnters should drop what and when

 

for example an imp doesnt drop anything

a zombie drops a clip

and a sergeant drops a shotgun

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by CBM

[ApprihensivSoul]

I'm a huge fan of sniper chaingunners, especially with high amounts of cover because it's a high risk-reward. You can usually one-shot em but they are a pain to leave alive. 

[roadworx]

something like this would actually be really helpful; when i was first getting into mapping, something like this was exactly what i needed the most. it needs to be way more in-depth tho and would probably end up being an enormous, unwieldy mess, but it'd still be helpful regardless

 

you'd have to add a lot more roles as a start, and probably have the columns representing roles and rows representing monsters

Edited February 5, 2022 by roadworx

[CBM]

13 hours ago, roadworx said:

something like this would actually be really helpful; when i was first getting into mapping, something like this was exactly what i needed the most. it needs to be way more in-depth tho and would probably end up being an enormous, unwieldy mess, but it'd still be helpful regardless

 

you'd have to add a lot more roles as a start, and probably have the columns representing roles and rows representing monsters

 

OT:

I really need to be better at using monsters so even if I am not totally new to mapping then Id still benefit greatly from this :-)

 

I am not sure I have the knowledge to make such a guide on my own so I am hoping we as a community could make this enormous unwieldly mess together :-)

 

but an analysis of each standard doom monster along with usefull custom derivatives could be a start I guess

 

then a definition of the roles that monsters should fill, then the encounter types, then something about placement (high, low, caged, ...), then how to build up encounters, then tons of examples, then charts and more charts

?

maybe a chart along these lines...

 

role           -  monsters

 

sacrificial    - demon in cage at ground level, lost soul in cage, ...

sniper         - imp on ledge, revenant on ledge, ...

guntower    - arachnotron on platform, ...

...

 

off-topic:

I just edited the chaingunner and shotgun guy from enjays genetech so that they arent carrying weapons during their death animations, making them perfect for use as 3d representations of doom2's chaingunner and sergeant monsters as they both drop a weapon upon dying

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by CBM

[Naarok0fkor]

Don't forget about dormant monsters in the sacrifical category. Boosting the size & HPs of a particular monster within a map can imply a boss/hero class of enemy. For this kind of classification, a good idea would be to go through the good old Marvel RPG. They had a very nice way of sorting the types of heroes & villains.

 

https://www.mshgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/TSR6871.Advanced.Players.Book_.pdf

https://www.deviantart.com/naarok0fkor/art/Black-Spider-man-vs-Hobgoblin-767796738

Edited February 6, 2022 by Naarok0fkor

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

Yahtzee in his Zero Punctuation episode on Quake made this quick summary of some monsters that I think is pretty useful. If the same idea was carried over to doom and expanded on, that could potentially be a useful tool for starting mappers.

 

Quote

The Knight harasses you in tight spaces, and the Fiend harasses you in the open. There's the floating Scrag who's job it is to molest you in the troublesome hard-to-reach places, and then there's the Ogre whose job is to get fucked. You think you're so great, spamming grenades with impossible to predict bounce trajectories, let's see who's have the last laugh after I quicksave another seven or eight hundred times. And that blob monster in the last episode can get double fucked on a bed of crispy lettuce. The way it hops around like a marble on a honeymoon mattress, and hitting it is like trying to swat a fly with your jizz.

 

[roadworx]

here, i have notes from when i was just getting started on doom for what each monster can do. it's super incomplete and honestly a bit shit but whatever

 

 

 

turret: semi-stationary monster used for area denial
area denial: forcing player to move away and find cover, effectively denying them the area they wish to go to. most often done by turrets and snipers (make sure there IS cover to get behind!)

zombiemen
- useful for harassing player, or acting as a sort of gameplay speed bump
- can finish players off if at very low health
- fun to murder large groups of them
- don't do well in large groups due to infighting

shotgun guy
- great for ambushes and close-quarters
- can mix in with zombiemen
- use in moderation as to not give too much ammo away
- don't do well in large groups due to infighting

chaingunner
- highly effective at area denial
- can be deadly in ambushes (ONLY IN MODERATION!!!)
- multiple chaingunners pose a major threat to players
- don't do well in large groups due to infighting
- speaking of which, are very good at starting infighting

imp
- forces player to dodge projectiles
- perfect minion-type enemy, better than hitscanners due to no infighting
- can act as weak turret
- dangerous up close, useful for ambushes if in a group
- good at area denial if in large group
- can be used alone for low-threat encounters, or a bullet hell if in a large amount

hell knight
- great mid-tier enemy
- best used to
    - push players out of safety and into danger
    - act as mid-tier central threat supported by other monsters
    - support other mid to high tier monsters during an encounter
    - act as a major threat in confined spaces
- only use alone when in close quarters
- good infighter
- much better to use instead of baron of hell

baron of hell
- just use two hell knights
- only use when infighting is a strong possibility

cacodemon
- highly versatile
- very good in open areas or places with lots of verticality, especially ones where the player has little room to move safely
- can also be used as an alternative to hell knights
- can pelt player with projectiles from above
- can occasionally be used in hordes
- will infight quite easily

demon/spectre
- meat shield
- good in cramped spaces
- constrains player's movement during encounters
- give an excuse to use berserk pack
- don't use them as normal enemies

revenant
- highly versatile
- work very well as turrets
- work great in close quarters due to low health, high speed, and high melee damage
- work in open areas
- can pretty much be used anywhere
- DO!!! NOT!!! OVERUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mancubus
- best used either as turret or in open areas
- very good at area denial, especially in large spaces
- extremely good at infighting
- can stick them in a hallway just for shits and giggles

arch-vile
- very VERY good at area denial
- can be used as a high-priority threat supported by other monsters during encounter
- can be used alone as a sort of miniboss
- forces player to get into cover while also scrambling to kill it asap

arachnotron
- great at area denial
- can be used as a turret or in wide open spaces
- forces player to go in one direction

lost soul
- exist solely to cause chaos and add an element of unpredictability
- can deny rocket usage

pain elemental
- living distraction
- usually player's number one priority

cyberdemon
- bullet sponge
- high priority
- infighter
 

 

 

iirc i didn't include the spider mastermind cuz i consider them useless. btw, i'm thinking that a sql database would be a lot better than a bunch of spreadsheets n shit, that way it's a lot more organized and significantly more accessible. it'd also allow you to give things waaaay more attributes in a way that spreadsheets don't allow; i can set it up if you think it's a good idea and wanna do this together

Edited February 7, 2022 by roadworx

[CBM]

3 hours ago, roadworx said:

here, i have notes from when i was just getting started on doom for what each monster can do. it's super incomplete and honestly a bit shit but whatever

 

  Hide contents

 

turret: semi-stationary monster used for area denial
area denial: forcing player to move away and find cover, effectively denying them the area they wish to go to. most often done by turrets and snipers (make sure there IS cover to get behind!)

zombiemen
- useful for harassing player, or acting as a sort of gameplay speed bump
- can finish players off if at very low health
- fun to murder large groups of them
- don't do well in large groups due to infighting

shotgun guy
- great for ambushes and close-quarters
- can mix in with zombiemen
- use in moderation as to not give too much ammo away
- don't do well in large groups due to infighting

chaingunner
- highly effective at area denial
- can be deadly in ambushes (ONLY IN MODERATION!!!)
- multiple chaingunners pose a major threat to players
- don't do well in large groups due to infighting
- speaking of which, are very good at starting infighting

imp
- forces player to dodge projectiles
- perfect minion-type enemy, better than hitscanners due to no infighting
- can act as weak turret
- dangerous up close, useful for ambushes if in a group
- good at area denial if in large group
- can be used alone for low-threat encounters, or a bullet hell if in a large amount

hell knight
- great mid-tier enemy
- best used to
    - push players out of safety and into danger
    - act as mid-tier central threat supported by other monsters
    - support other mid to high tier monsters during an encounter
    - act as a major threat in confined spaces
- only use alone when in close quarters
- good infighter
- much better to use instead of baron of hell

baron of hell
- just use two hell knights
- only use when infighting is a strong possibility

cacodemon
- highly versatile
- very good in open areas or places with lots of verticality, especially ones where the player has little room to move safely
- can also be used as an alternative to hell knights
- can pelt player with projectiles from above
- can occasionally be used in hordes
- will infight quite easily

demon/spectre
- meat shield
- good in cramped spaces
- constrains player's movement during encounters
- give an excuse to use berserk pack
- don't use them as normal enemies

revenant
- highly versatile
- work very well as turrets
- work great in close quarters due to low health, high speed, and high melee damage
- work in open areas
- can pretty much be used anywhere
- DO!!! NOT!!! OVERUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mancubus
- best used either as turret or in open areas
- very good at area denial, especially in large spaces
- extremely good at infighting
- can stick them in a hallway just for shits and giggles

arch-vile
- very VERY good at area denial
- can be used as a high-priority threat supported by other monsters during encounter
- can be used alone as a sort of miniboss
- forces player to get into cover while also scrambling to kill it asap

arachnotron
- great at area denial
- can be used as a turret or in wide open spaces
- forces player to go in one direction

lost soul
- exist solely to cause chaos and add an element of unpredictability
- can deny rocket usage

pain elemental
- living distraction
- usually player's number one priority

cyberdemon
- bullet sponge
- high priority
- infighter
 

 

 

iirc i didn't include the spider mastermind cuz i consider them useless. btw, i'm thinking that a sql database would be a lot better than a bunch of spreadsheets n shit, that way it's a lot more organized and significantly more accessible. it'd also allow you to give things waaaay more attributes in a way that spreadsheets don't allow; i can set it up if you think it's a good idea and wanna do this together

very cool notes!

yes a db could be cool but I have no idea what to type in it just yet

[roadworx]

43 minutes ago, CBM said:

yes a db could be cool but I have no idea what to type in it just yet

well, as a start, you'd need to have each monster entry contain its behavior; imps throw straight projectiles and have a melee attack, zombies have a hitscan attack, etc. each of those abilities would also need to contain their damage and specific behaviors; as it'd be a database, you'd have a lot of versatility with this and could have each ability have separate parameters. this would be coupled with a general threat level; monster prioritization is super important in doom, so you'd need to have that. something stating if they're god or not at infighting and being fodder would also be necessary.

 

then, you could have each monster contain values for how effective they are in a certain role. each role would likely have several values for several different things, with the primary one being the threat an enemy poses when placed in that role; it'd probably be based around a monster's preexisting threat level, so it'd pretty much just be adding or subtracting from that. as an example, this setup would have an entry for the manc contain a high value in area denial, but a much lower one in roaming.

 

with that being said, here's a list of roles you could include (not exhaustive):
- area denial

- blocking (i.e. taking up space, like a pinky)

- ambushing

- roaming

- distraction

- rocket denial

 

some of the roles would also need values like ideal distance and others that i can't think of atm, but diverging from those values would affect the threat level. those parameters would indicate the ideal in order to get the highest threat level

 

that's all i can think of rn, there's definitely more you could do

[CBM]

3 hours ago, roadworx said:

well, as a start, you'd need to have each monster entry contain its behavior; imps throw straight projectiles and have a melee attack, zombies have a hitscan attack, etc. each of those abilities would also need to contain their damage and specific behaviors; as it'd be a database, you'd have a lot of versatility with this and could have each ability have separate parameters. this would be coupled with a general threat level; monster prioritization is super important in doom, so you'd need to have that. something stating if they're god or not at infighting and being fodder would also be necessary.

 

then, you could have each monster contain values for how effective they are in a certain role. each role would likely have several values for several different things, with the primary one being the threat an enemy poses when placed in that role; it'd probably be based around a monster's preexisting threat level, so it'd pretty much just be adding or subtracting from that. as an example, this setup would have an entry for the manc contain a high value in area denial, but a much lower one in roaming.

 

with that being said, here's a list of roles you could include (not exhaustive):
- area denial

- blocking (i.e. taking up space, like a pinky)

- ambushing

- roaming

- distraction

- rocket denial

 

some of the roles would also need values like ideal distance and others that i can't think of atm, but diverging from those values would affect the threat level. those parameters would indicate the ideal in order to get the highest threat level

 

that's all i can think of rn, there's definitely more you could do

hm yearh, such a db could be pretty cool

 

but it would be nice to have variations in the db as well... like the ones shown on the zdoom wiki along with how they might fit in with the existing monster roster

 

maybe also the monsters from say heretic and/or hexen

 

it would be interesting to see if monsters from several games used in a single mod for doom2 for example would be able to fill different roles and supplement each other or if they just end up filling the same roles or maybe a mix

 

it would end up as an exhustive monster DB

 

maybe also with some stuff to help put those monsters in to doom, heretic, hexen, etc...

like decorate definitions, etc...

Edited February 7, 2022 by CBM