Thinking about jumping to Linux, but want a second opinion

[HydroFS02]

Okay, so here's my situation that I'm in.

 

Right now I'm currently on Windows 10 for my main PC, but the past couple of weeks I've been strongly considering ditching it in favour of using a Linux distro such as Ubuntu or Linux Mint since Windows 10 will be EoL in a matter of a few years. My computer doesn't qualify for the Windows 11 update because it's processor is deemed incompatible despite it being TPM capable (an Intel Core i-7700 CPU, which is still fairly recent I think). With today's prices, I'm pretty hesitant about dropping nearly $1,000 or more on a new PC that is Windows 11 compatible and is actually worth a damn compared to my "HP Pavilion Power Desktop" PC I'm using. It's only 4 years old but it cannot be easily upgraded to the extent a "normal" mid/full tower can since it's a smaller sized tower and mostly uses proprietary parts from HP (like the power source for example) and has a pretty shite GPU by today's standards (Radeon RX 550 with only 4GB of vram). So I do have some incentive to buy a new PC, however I do not want to contribute to e-waste by tossing out a perfectly working machine despite not being powerful enough.

 

That being said, Windows 11 honestly doesn't sound all that appealing to me if I have to stick with Windows. Which is what prompted my thinking of using Linux as my main OS in the first place. I've read many comments and articles from people claiming Windows 11 is behind Windows 10 in terms of features, UI, and certain things being cut from the transition from 10 to 11 or obfuscated for stupid reasons. I do know about dual booting but I'd rather not keep Windows 10 around on my current PC once it hits EoL for security reasons and I also don't feel like worrying about managing 2 OSes at the same time. I understand that if I do jump to a Linux distro, I should be prepared to learn how to make things work the way I want them to and make due with the differences between it and Windows. I do have Ubuntu installed on my laptop that I only use in an emergency, so I'm not completely in the dark on how to use it but my knowledge is still fairly limited. I also understand a good chunk of my usual programs & games might need to be used under Wine or Proton via Steam to get them to work if there's no native version, or the occasional program that might just not be available for Linux at all.

 

Sorry if my explanation is all over the place or if I missed details. Long-form writing is definitely not my forte. But I'm hoping anyone reading this can help me with this.

Edited February 8, 2022 by HydroFS02

[wolfmcbeard]

Linux is worth toying around with, I'd say install it on that HP, since it sounds like you may get a new system at some point in the future.
Once you get it, you'd have enough time on Linux to know if you want to stick with it or not.

As for avoiding sending the pc to the e-waste bin, there are options, such as setting it up as some kind of game server, or see if someone you know had a dire need for a pc on the cheap or free if you're inclined.

And the Win10 eol sucks, we got three years before that comes around at least, but 11 as it is right now is something I am glad my HP is too outdated to use.

[Serum]

Put the needle in. It not only will keep your old hardware useful, but it will teach you a lot about computers. And, it's just fun. Windows has never felt fun to me like Linux. It's not *terrible* in regards to limitations in 2022, but you will have to sacrifice a few things until further development, such as anti-cheat games. Still worth it, though

Edited February 8, 2022 by Serum

[gwain]

topkek keep advancing your knowledge into Linux and other creative works never give up

 

 

 

I recommended a drop down terminal since its convenient on Linux mint not sure about Ubuntu there is a startup applications thing where you choose what starts up so add yakuake or any other drop-down terminal to that

Edited February 8, 2022 by gwain

[Amarande]

FWIW, there's even rumors afoot that Windows 11 will actually be the last of the Windows NT line that's been the mainstream core for Windows since the 2000/XP days, and that Windows 12, when it arrives, might be fully Linux-cored. Given Microsoft has been increasingly embracing Linux (Linux Subsystem, or the still-Insider-only-AFAIK Android integration in 11), it would be reasonable to suspect that would be the replacement for the aging NT paradigm, at least (and more likely to be feasible than some entirely new Windows technology that would require entirely new from the ground application development, let's remember how well Modern Apps and Windows Phone turned out LOL).

 

Linux is also in a very good, better than ever spot lately when it comes to games (see ProtonDB's compatibility list: only a fairly small number of games seem to be Borked, and it's mostly because of certain anti-cheats - I think it's usually Easy Anticheat and Xigncode that cause problems? - or because of Denuvo DRM, which is goofy enough that even a fair number of Windows machines struggle with it). Valve is even using it as the platform for the Steam Deck handheld coming out this year. The main thing it needs to work on is issues with C++ libraries (currently, it can often actually be easier to run the Windows version of a game through Wine/Proton than to try to run a Linux native version even if there is one, as the latter often struggle with C++ ABI issues exacerbated by the fact that both the game and the graphics driver are closed source C++ programs).

[Murdoch]

Here's the problem. Getting a lot of things to work with Linux can be a royal pain in the ass. Windows 10 is miles from perfect but, assuming your gear is not faulty, it generally more or less works more than it doesn't for the overwhelming majority of people.

Definitely avoid Windows 11, too many usability and performance problems.

 

I will give you a painfully frustrating experience I had recently. A customer wanted me to build them a tower running Linux Mint. Sure, I had used Mint on a USB to accomplish various tasks (mostly to copy files off an internal drive without removing it before a Windows reinstall) and never had a problem with it. So I ordered the bits, built the system. Booted off the USB, no problem. Everything worked. Tried to install, and the hell began. Lockups mid-installation. A message about their being no space left (on a brand new recently formatted 250GB M.2?). Much researching, found some BIOS settings to tweak. Suggested I had to put an internal video card in because something about the latest Intel built in graphics not liking non-secure boot? Got further, still locked. Tried Ubuntu - even fucking worse. Tried Windows 10, worked perfectly without a moment's heistation. After much frustration, I switched from the M.2 card to a regular SATA SSD and, in spite of the wifi card suddenly causing a kernel panic (though it worked fine once it got past the stream of error messages and never once complained running off the USB???), everything worked except the networking port on the board. Found an older USB wifi adapter that caused no complaints, job done after much swearing and frustration.

 

It's one experience only, yes, but just installing an operating system shouldn't take hours of research and pain to install on a basic build built from high quality components from the best manufacturers in the business. And my research showed I am far from the only one. Linux fans are used to really getting involved and tweaking this that and the other thing. I don't have time for that and nor do my customers. They and I are just going to want to go with what works even if it's not completely perfect. By all means give Linux a go if you have got plenty of time to tweak and experiment if things don't quite go to plan. But have a fallback plan ready to go, especially if you are dependent upon your computer for anything serious.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Murdoch

[Martin Howe]

I have for a long time been  lucky enough to have experience of UNIX, not just Linux, so when Windows became a total shitshow (i.e., eol on Win 7) I got out. However, Linux does indeed require some effort if one goes beyond web browsing and social media. The payoff is that Linux mostly sits in the background and waits for you to give it orders, whereas the current MICROS~1 piece of s**t keeps nagging you with incredibly insulting questions and prompts (e.g, do you really want to switch to Firefox without trying EDGE?) and Win 11 apparently requires an online account to work.

 

So for me, Windows can be consigned to the deepest pits of Hell, where the worm does not die and the fire does not go out. Suck it down.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Martin Howe

[HydroFS02]

Thank you all so much for commenting. Got a lot of good information from everyone here and am really tempted to make the leap based on what has been said. It'll still be a little while before I make my final decision as I need to do a bit more research about what programs and games of mine will work. I did talk about this to a really good friend of mine earlier who thinks I should maybe use my emergency laptop as a testing bed and then decide from there if I should switch or at least dual boot for the time being. Plus I still need to make backups just in case but I've been too preoccupied to do so.

 

If anyone else has something to add about this subject, I'll welcome it.

Edited February 9, 2022 by HydroFS02

[Graf Zahl]

11 hours ago, Amarande said:

it would be reasonable to suspect that would be the replacement for the aging NT paradigm.

 

I find statements like this a bit ironic, considering that the Unix paradigms at the core of Linux are even more "aged". :P

 

It'd still be a smart move from Microsoft to move to a Unix core, whether they use Linux, BSD or something else. In a perfect world all those GUI systems would be a lot better if they were just high level layers on a common kernel, as opposed to having this wildly divergent OSs.

 

But I think before this can happen there needs to be a lot work being invested into the driver handling on Linux. This has always been one of its achilles heels, but on the other hands one of Windows's biggest strengths.

[Xeebleton]

what I'd do is wait for the steam deck before getting into linux, since that'll mean steam proton will be updated to support all steam games, but if you dont want your PC to be primarily for gaming and want to do some work that can only be done on windows, I suggest still changing to linux, but also use a VM. dual-booting is also an option if you want to keep two OSs, but dont want to go through the hassle of installing and setting up a VM. I have never really used linux, so dont expect everything I said here to be true.

[ducon]

I suggest you to buy a new machine, install Linux on it, play with it, try to break it (and learn from your errors without harm), reinstall it or try to fix it; and keep the old one with Windows 10 in it.

Thus, if you break Linux, you will still be able to search for documentation from Windows… and vice-versa.

[HavoX]

I'm in the same situation you are, except my PC qualifies for Win 11. The only reason I'm holding out is because Win11 is, and I'm sticking to my guns here, still in its infancy. There are still a bit of hiccups here and there, and Open Shell still hasn't been updated to work seamlessly with it.

 

So personally, I'd wait. If things don't get better for Win11, I'd probably might as well make the jump to Linux.

[HydroFS02]

I've still been talking to my friend about this matter some more. I think he and some of the members who posted/voted here may be right about waiting for now with Windows 10 and using my laptop for experimenting like I said. Or at least doing a Dual Boot just for things I may not be able to run in Ubuntu or other Distros. And I'll have to inevitably get a new system down the road since I would like to play some stuff past 2015 like the newer Doom games, Halo Infinite, and some resource intensive indies that have came out in the past years. So maybe Windows 11 could be more mature of an operating system by then that I can try it & dual boot or jump ship there if needed. I'll definitely be entertaining the idea of Linux more though regardless.

 

I feel like maybe I was too hasty to post about this here initially but at least it's good I did to hear what other people had to say. Thank you all for being a big help.

Edited February 9, 2022 by HydroFS02

[Aaron Blain]

My advice:

 

- Pick a distro that lets you live boot without installing. Make sure you can get all your hardware to work.

- Make a list of every application you would sincerely miss, and see if you can get it working first, or if there's a Linux alternative you actually like.

 

I was fairly comfortable with Doom Builder, but I've never gotten the hang of Eureka. And despite many hours wasted I cannot for the life of me get Slade to compile.

[dpJudas]

The differences between Windows 10 and 11 are so tiny that there no real reason to bother upgrading. You aren't missing out on anything important by staying on Windows 10.

 

Personally I would just stay on Windows 10 until it actually reaches EOL. At that point your current PC should be fairly old anyway. Switching to Linux should IMO only be done if you have some special interest in the OS and want to try it out. It shouldn't be because you can't move to Windows 11 on your current PC. At least not until the EOL date.

 

PS. What's with this silly notion that the NT kernel should be inferior to the Linux kernel? Unless you are actually working on kernel drivers then who cares? When I run Linux on servers it isn't because of the kernel - it's the easier user space (SSH with unix tools vs RDP with cmd/powershell is a slam dunk victory to Linux), that it only does what I asked it to do, and that it's free.

[Graf Zahl]

47 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

PS. What's with this silly notion that the NT kernel should be inferior to the Linux kernel?

 

If you ask me, it's a common misconception of Linux users that may go as follows: Windows got a lot of malware, i.e Windows's security system is bad, i.e. the kernel is bad, totally ignoring the real reason and why this means absolutely nothing about the quality of Linux's security. So just the other day I read an interesting article about increasing amounts of Linux malware, of course mainly targeted at the servers, not the end users. (Sorry, lost the link)

 

About Windows 11 vs 10: Microsoft managed to achieve the impossible here: They took a bad start menu - and made it worse! I'd never have expected to see something here that gets this soundly beaten by macOS's LaunchPad, but Win11's start menu definitely does. Installing a third party replacement to have a productive setup is virtually a requirement. On the other hand, the same has been true for Windows 8-10 as well.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Graf Zahl

[Martin Howe]

A deal breaker for me, if I was still using Windows (LOL), is that there is allegedly no way to install Windows 11 with a local account. I absolutely refuse to let MICROS~1 store my data or in any way have access to me that I can prevent; it's MY computer and MY data and MY life. Screw them.

[Graf Zahl]

I have a Windows 11 installation with a local account. Only the Home version cannot do it, but then you shouldn't get that anyway.

 

[MFG38]

15 hours ago, Aaron Blain said:

Pick a distro that lets you live boot without installing.

 

Don't most Linux distros have that functionality?

 

On 2/9/2022 at 1:18 AM, Martin Howe said:

Win 11 apparently requires an online account to work.

 

One more to the list of reasons for me to go Linux sooner rather than later.

[Graf Zahl]

Let me repeat: Windows 11 Profesional does not need an online account.

[Maribo]

15 hours ago, Aaron Blain said:

I was fairly comfortable with Doom Builder, but I've never gotten the hang of Eureka. And despite many hours wasted I cannot for the life of me get Slade to compile.

Just wanted to mention that Slade has a Flatpak distribution over at flathub, and a Debian-based repo linked on this page.

[MFG38]

2 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Let me repeat: Windows 11 Profesional does not need an online account.

 

I'm not getting the "Professional" version just to circumvent that. Frankly, I have other concerns about Win11 not related to user accounts and have been looking into migrating to Linux for a while anyway. With what I've been hearing about Win11, Win10 is very likely to be the last Windows OS I use.

[dpJudas]

Seems pretty silly to make decisions based on rumors, but maybe that's just me. If you want to use Linux then use Linux, but please don't pretend that Windows 11 somehow was the magical red line crossed that Windows 10 didn't have. The two OSes are virtually identical. So much so that I tend to forget which one I'm using.

 

I bought Windows 11 Professional version for 16 dollars. Let's keep this gigantic expense in mind when we are talking about how outrageous a request it is to switch to the pro version.

[7Mahonin]

I think it depends on what your main intentions are with using this system. If it’s for professional work I’d suggest staying with windows 10. Windows is the most used in professional environments, IT, and Cybersecurity, and most companies still use Windows 10 or older, so having experience with it is worth it for that.
 

If it’s just a hobbyist thing then I think you should do whatever you want but if I were you I would just save for a new system so you have a primary system to use and can toy around with the other; always having a backup if things go wrong with the “toy”. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by 7Mahonin

[MFG38]

16 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

The two OSes are virtually identical.

 

Minus the obviously different UI?

 

22 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

Seems pretty silly to make decisions based on rumors

 

Clearly it can't be all just rumors if people have reported them as legitimate problems. There's been talk about Win11 running games worse than Win10, with whole comparisons being run between the two and the latter outperforming the former, if ultimately quite marginally. Additionally, I came across this report, and even in its idle state, Win11 eats up more CPU and RAM with more frequent spikes. Even ignoring all of that, I've been skeptical about Win11 ever since it was announced in the first place. Win10 already has its fair share of questionable things about it, and I don't trust Win11 to have improved much on those aspects, especially the telemetry.

 

39 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

I bought Windows 11 Professional version for 16 dollars. Let's keep this gigantic expense in mind when we are talking about how outrageous a request it is to switch to the pro version.

 

Sure, you bought it for 16 dollars, but that doesn't mean everyone else will. A boxed copy of the OS with the installation media is inevitably at least 100, and with those, there's a pretty notable price difference between Home and Professional. As notable as €40 on the site I'm currently looking at. Granted, physical media is dying out and DVD is on its way to obsolescence as an OS installation method, but it does still exist. And I'd imagine there's still a market even for those.

[Graf Zahl]

Considering the overall price of a new computer the difference between Home (i.e. made for people who browse the web and use social media) and Professional (made for people who do some actual work with their computer) the price difference is not that high. There, actually even the nominally free Linux can quickly become a cost driver if things don't happen to work right.

If you do not want to use Windows, by all means, feel free to leave for something else - but you are solely basing your decision on hearsay and questionable sources. What I find particularly silly is to consider RAM use bad. What did you buy this memory for? That it lays idle while the system needs to reload or recreate the data all the time to keep a low memory footprint? When under load by applications all those caches will be the first thing getting freed.

 

[LexiMax]

The thing is, nearly every Windows update, and some macOS and Linux updates, are often heralded are the worst thing ever.  From Windows 8 to macOS 10.7 to GNOME 3 people will find things to complain about because the new release changes things around too much for their liking.  And yet, in the end, people get attached to the quirks of the new Windows and then throw their toys out of the pram when the new new version of Windows comes along.  The lyrics change, but the song remains the same.

 

Here's the thing, there's no such thing as a "good" operating system.  YOSPOS: Your OS is a Piece Of Shit.  Which OS?  Your OS.  In other words, all of them.  Windows is bad, macOS is bad, Linux is bad.  When you switch operating systems, you never switch from a bad OS to a good OS, you are trading one set of problems for another.  Always.

 

I'm not telling you not to switch.  In fact, Windows allows you to test Linux with WSL, and Windows 11 supports graphical Linux programs too.  But if you're going to try it "for real", I would suggest dual-booting first, just to see how you like it.  I would also recommend using a known quantity distro like Fedora or Ubuntu as opposed to whatever bleeding edge distros are out there.  Most of all, don't switch to Linux with blinders on and become one of those weirdo Linux users where the shortcomings of the OS are always other people's fault.

[ReaperAA]

Quote

I would suggest dual-booting first, just to see how you like it

 

Best suggestion put in the thread so far. I too would suggest dual-booting over just going cold turkey. This would allow to gradually adjust to the distro of your choice and if/when you finally are no longer dependant on Windows, you can then abandon it.

[Edward850]

2 hours ago, AlexMax said:

And yet, in the end, people get attached to the quirks of the new Windows and then throw their toys out of the pram when the new new version of Windows comes along.  The lyrics change, but the song remains the same.

Yeah the response around Win11 seems especially weird. The reviews from outsiders seem far more useful.

 

 

 

[dpJudas]

6 hours ago, MFG38 said:

Minus the obviously different UI?

You mean the rounded corners on the windows and the uxtheme update? Visually I find it a slight improvement compared to Windows 10, but like I said, I barely even notice. Both are kinda ugly, just in each their own way. The start menu was trash before and is also trash now, just in a different way. Big deal. :)

 

6 hours ago, MFG38 said:

Clearly it can't be all just rumors if people have reported them as legitimate problems. There's been talk about Win11 running games worse than Win10, with whole comparisons being run between the two and the latter outperforming the former, if ultimately quite marginally. Additionally, I came across this report, and even in its idle state, Win11 eats up more CPU and RAM with more frequent spikes. Even ignoring all of that, I've been skeptical about Win11 ever since it was announced in the first place. Win10 already has its fair share of questionable things about it, and I don't trust Win11 to have improved much on those aspects, especially the telemetry.

So, a +3% speed increase in some of the tested game titles on Windows 11, and a -3% speed in the some others. With most of them hovering around +-1%. Huge performance issues indeed (read: no it's not, marginal at best). That data was from your first link. Trust me, without a benchmark tool you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

I agree there are a lot of reasons to dislike Windows 11 - the telemetry and candy crush bundling in particular. But here's the thing. Those things also apply to Windows 10. Only difference is the home edition is now officially useless for anyone not wanting a MS account. And no, you can't use the argument that because you can find a 100 dollar gold plated edition of Windows 11 that this is the normal price for the product. I didn't search hard to find a 16 dollar version - it was the first link on googling when I bought it. By this kind of logic Linux isn't free because I can buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server for 349 dollars!