Let's talk about -fast

[idbeholdME]

I play pretty much every WAD on "UV Nightmare -fast" (as I've decided to call a custom difficulty defined for GZDoom where monsters behave exactly as on Nightmare). The reason for a custom difficulty is because it gets rid of the initial reaction delay of monsters that simply using the -fast parameter has (thus making monster speeds and timings exactly the same as on NM).

 

I've been playing Doom this way for years and years, that I honestly can't even play with normal speed anymore, since it makes everything seem sluggish. I've just been wondering, how common is it in the community to play with -fast. From what I can tell, it seems more like a rarity. I rarely see people talking about it in the numerous threads in the vein of "how do you play doom", "your preferred difficulty" or "monster/weapon balance/threat levels etc."

 

And besides playing, do map creators ever take -fast into account? I'm assuming no, but would still like to hear what mappers think about it, if they ever stop to think "Is this Heavy Weapon Dude ambush survivable with -fast?" or something like that.

 

But in general, what are your thoughts about -fast? Have you ever tried it? Do you like it?

[gwain]

I play it if the wad is getting a bit dull with monster placement but even then I have to idclev back to the level I was on and restart

[Shepardus]

I find that fast monsters ironically results in slower-paced gameplay a lot of the time, since you have to be more careful and hide behind cover, especially when hitscanners are involved. It can actually be easier than normal monsters at times since fast monsters are more predictable (e.g. they'll stand still and constantly attack you rather than moving around).

 

Fast monsters dramatically changes the balance of the game, so it's rare for mappers to balance for both fast and non-fast monsters, because oftentimes you just can't. It works on some maps, but those are generally easier maps that weren't all that tightly balanced to begin with. It is a nice way to spice up such maps, though, if you accept that the results aren't always well-balanced and dealing with that is part of the fun. On the other hand, I do find it interesting when maps are balanced for Nightmare, like DBP25.

[FEZ_GG]

I've messed around with -fast a bit, but I tend to keep it off most of the time.  Maybe I'm just not good enough at Doom yet, but it tends to bump up the difficulty a little too much for my liking.  Recently I tried out Doom the Way id Did for the first time, and I enabled -fast when I noticed how it was about as easy as Doom 1.  It worked alright for a while, but as it went on, I had to play a little too cautiously for my liking.  The game was putting more and more emphasis on peaking from behind corners just to make sure I can comfortably get through.  I was also pistol-starting each map, so simply trying to acquire the weapons/armor I need to survive could be a daunting task.  Maybe if I do continuous playthroughs where I keep all my guns I'd have a different opinion, as I'm not trying to scramble around for weapons while praying hitscan RNG isn't too bad.  I want to give -fast a better chance someday, but for now I'm more comfortable playing without it.

[RHhe82]

Basically what FEZ_GG said. I never use -fast, but I have tried it every now and then, but it changes the game too much for me. If I wanted to adjust the difficulty, choosing UV and pistol-starting is enough, especially with custom wads. I supposed it's not inconceivable that I'll try to complete Knee-Deep in the Dead someday with -fast monsters enabled, I might even make it with persistence, but I doubt I'll truly enjoy it. I can see myself either dying a lot and having miserable time, or playing too cautiously to actually enjoy the game.

[thiccyosh]

I played Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 on -fast, I liked it and I will never touch it again unless it tells me to. It's never -fast itself that I don't like it is the first few minutes where you eat Imp fireballs and zombieman lead because you're still used to regular Doom. And then when I stop playing with -fast I'm always surprised by the fact that Pinkies are goddamn slow. Talking about Pinkies, I hate turbo Pinkies and to hell with every mapper who abuses them.

[Captain POLAND]

TBH I don't even know how to enable the option in any of the source ports I use. Aside from just playing on Nightmare mode.

 

 

[Pseudonaut]

It can be an interesting variant sometimes, but generally, maps are better when played with the mechanics they were designed for. Some encounters are broken by it, some are made easier because infighting is more reliable. Sometimes it does very little to change my route on a map except that I die more from bad hitscan RNG than I otherwise would, so the grind takes longer. Like Shepardus said, it often makes gameplay slower because everywhere outside of cover is more dangerous, and there's more reason to stay in cover as a consequence. Nightmare difficulty has a good counterbalance to this in its respawn mechanic, which makes it dangerous to be slow. I suppose -fast does result in faster gameplay sometimes just because infighting is more efficient.

[BaileyTW]

I don't do it a whole lot but I do so for maps I have beaten and want to milk what could be a neat challenge out of them. An unbalanced challenge, that can result in playing in a sometimes unsatisfying (cowardly) way, but unique enough that it makes some maps new once more.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

It makes the game feel much duller for me. The guys just stand there and shoot. Sure, it's harder not to get killed but less interesting. I do love fast pinkies but that's about it. Fighting turrets stops the momentum dead. You gotta find cover and play peek-a-boo instead of gleefully running and gunning. 

[idbeholdME]

Interesting. Seems I was mostly correct in my assumption, based on the poll.

 

Personally, once I went -fast, I never looked back. Finished pretty much everything with it. Original IWADs, Alien Vendetta, Ancient Aliens, Scythe, Hell Revealed, Plutonia 2 and much, much more.

 

There are a lot of things that it changes so it makes for a pretty different experience. But yes, -fast is definitely a double edged sword in many situations:

 

Probably the most noticeable thing (as has been noted) is that it makes cover pretty much mandatory against hitscanners. But I actually like this aspect of it. Not being able to just run into everywhere, relying on the fact that enemies take forever to actually attack you freshened up the gameplay a lot for me. You can still easily dodge any non-hitscan projectile, so the -fast hitscanners work wonders for the dynamics. Against anything other than hitscanners, corner camping is a choice, not a necessity. You can play it slow and safe or if you are confident, dive in anyway and still weave your way through whatever is thrown your way.

 

One definitely negative aspect is when enemies encounter corners. -fast always makes them unload at least several projectiles into the corner before the actually move enough for the shot to fly through. Also, Lost Souls can often get stuck on a wall edge. As they are constantly launching their attack, they keep bumping into corners and it takes them forever to get around it. But in an open space, it makes them much more dangerous. If a couple of them get behind you while there is a Pain Elemental in front of you for example, it is usually game over.

 

Arch-Vile probably suffers the most from -fast, making him incredibly easy to lock down in place and basically neutralize by just peeking a corner. But then again, any Arch-Vile set up as a zoning turret is that much more effective.

 

On the other hand, Demons and Specters are hands down one of my favorite Doom enemies with -fast. Probably one of the main reasons I could never go back to normal. Due to how completely and utterly useless they are with normal speed.

 

But overall, I vastly prefer it. I already found the normal UV pretty easy and generally non-threatening in most of the WADs I played and as a continuous only player, -fast was the only reasonable step up in difficulty for me (not counting Nightmare which is just a speedrun difficulty). Yes, there are some situations which can be made easier with -fast, but in general, it absolutely results in a harder game overall. I can definitely recommend trying it. It is what kept me hooked on Doom to this day. Not sure I would have played it that much without it.

 

EDIT:

If anyone is interested, this is the custom difficulty I use in GZDoom, that removes the 8 tick initial reaction time from monsters.

 

skill UVNMhybrid
{
   AmmoFactor = 1
   FastMonsters
   InstantReaction
   RespawnTime = 0
   SpawnFilter = Nightmare
   name = "UV NM fast"
}

 

GZDoom actually had the full Nightmare speeds when using -fast for the longest time. It was in 4.6.0 that they added the InstantReaction flag and made -fast behave as it does in vanilla (with the 8 tick initial reaction delay). This difficulty definition returns the complete Nightmare speeds.

Edited February 11, 2022 by idbeholdME

[Andromeda]

Never really understood the appeal of it, I'd rather play on Nightmare myself.

[GarrettChan]

26 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Never really understood the appeal of it, I'd rather play on Nightmare myself.

I hate that you beat all my Nightmare! runs because of this mindset. Play more UV -Fast :P

[BiZ]

yo.

 

I play quite a bit of fast. I also record and submit demos to dsda and do commentary videos. Unfortunately, it is not a category that is held in high regard, or that gets a lot of attention, so don't be too surprised if you get a lukewarm reception in this thread.

 

From the tiny slice of maps I have run, mappers don't really design for or take into account gameplay with the fast parameter, but I don't think they need to either. Part of the fun for me is figuring out how to tackle a fight with the different mechanics.

 

Having the wake-up attack delay from monsters is actually pretty important and part of what makes fast unique. It allows some maps to work which would otherwise be broken on Nightmare. The first one that comes to my mind is Vanguard MAP03 for example.

 

 

If you enjoy fast, here are a few of the best runners doing it currently (they don't always do fast tho):

 

Dubzzz (dunno if he has a YT channel, but just turn on the DSDA stream at any given time lol)

https://www.twitch.tv/doomspeeddemos

 

Coincident

https://www.youtube.com/c/coincident

 

NumberJuan77

https://www.youtube.com/user/supermariofreak77

[erzboesewicht]

I started to use -fast after having played Valiant, because I enjoyed the fast-firing imps. I mainly use it with IWADs or "not-too-hard" wads until the difficulty of Alien Vendetta. However I'm not always in the mood for it, and I'll normally do at least the first playthrough of a new WAD on UV. So I've voted for "occasionally".

[idbeholdME]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:08 PM, Andromeda said:

Never really understood the appeal of it, I'd rather play on Nightmare myself.

The main appeal is that it is mostly just a harder regular difficulty.  The only step up from normal UV.

 

Nightmare is mostly just about speedrunning everything, a completely different game and a playstyle I don't really care much about. I love everything about Nightmare but the respawn kills it for me, as I go through all levels methodically and explore/hunt secrets (in any FPS  not just Doom). Thus I made a difficulty that suits my tastes, which is pretty much Nightmare without respawn.

 

On 2/12/2022 at 8:04 PM, BiZ said:

Having the wake-up attack delay from monsters is actually pretty important and part of what makes fast unique. It allows some maps to work which would otherwise be broken on Nightmare. The first one that comes to my mind is Vanguard MAP03 for example.

Over the years, I did encounter a couple levels where the no wake-up delay caused issues. Most of the time, it is when enemies are supposed to teleport somewhere the moment you wake them up but they instead attack you first before doing so.

 

For example, one level started in a tiny room with a Cyberdemon right in front of you, blocking the only exit. Normally, he would instantly teleport away the moment you alerted him. With no delay, he just stands in place and shoots. Forced me to replay the previous level, finish it with 200/200 and then after numerous tries, kill him with the BFG, surviving with single digit health and armor.

 

But I have fun, encountering and trying to get through stuff like this. And I also like the increased danger from the instant initial reaction. I noticed the lack of it the moment it got changed in GZDoom, which was why I looked into custom difficulty definitions in the first place.

Edited February 17, 2022 by idbeholdME

[GalaxyTails]

I sometimes use it for a nice challenge every now and then, although it does screw up my muscle memory a bit so maybe I should always use it >:D

[Helm]

the merit for a mapper that wants to work with -fast is that it creates very deterministic scenarios. When you enter a room and get noticed by monsters, they will start firing from where they stand until you get out line of sight. This means that even a single imp placed high in a very small platform will immediately act as the turret it was designed to be. 

If a mapper were to use -fast intentionally, they could create very exact combat clockwork puzzles without having to rely on placing 10 revenants on narrow spaces in the hope that one or two of the revenants will eventually do their job and turret. You can make very arcadey and bullet hell-ish feeling scenarios with only few monsters, and then killing these few monsters fast and in the right order/clean route can be highlighted to the forefront.

It also makes enemy AI manipulation interesting because you can pull monsters by obstructing line of sight and the moment you step back in sight they go back to being fairly stationary. 

There is a lot of untapped potential in map making explicitly for -fast, yet I don't think I've come across any notable wads that go for it.

Playing material not designed for -fast with it usually involves hiding around corners much more than I like for a game with such fast motion like Doom.