Which One Is Harder? Kaizo Mario Hacks, Or Slaughter Maps?

[Doomkid]

11 minutes ago, Master Medi said:

I've heard stories that Mario Slaughter is hard

 

Um, no. You're wrong, and frankly I'm insulted that you would say that.

 

Kaizo Doom is FAR harder, OBJECTIVELY. Super Mario Slaughter is by no means difficult. The final two moves in the game are rather predictable. While this is easily accomplished through simple movement of the platform, it is most definitely not necessary. With one exception there are no extra moves here and the platform is not always vertical. It also needs to be very well paced and a certain distance of the player is necessary to actually hit it. There are some glitches that I couldn't explain clearly enough, such as the slow in the bottom-right corner and the sudden move animation that takes a bit of time. The problem is that each of these glitches are only available during the level, so it's a great opportunity to replay the entire game. You need to be very careful. A quick aside. Let's see, what a Mario fan I am, it takes a long time to complete this game. It takes so long to master it because of all the technical glitches that are placed there - just waiting for it to die, wait for a glitch to be applied to one game, wait like the middle of a fire that would instantly burn you in the face. So if you are a Mario fan, then maybe a lot of your patience is wasted on this level. However you have to pay attention to what you are actually playing. Once you have that many hours spent playing this game you will get over the "pain". To do this you have to understand the mechanics, but ultimately all you will see is a little bit of fun.

 

Conversely, Kaizo Doom maps are the HARDEST. You'll have to make sure you know exactly what spells they use before you begin their attacks. You must keep an eye on their health, as if you saw a corpse the whole time you'd just hit them with a spell, you'd have to do this every time they were on top/bottom, not just the ones with their melee health (which doesn't count). If you're using damage attacks, you'll make sure you don't let them get below the health line and have to make sure you can attack each one with your ranged (your melee attacks also deal no damage) and also you need to make sure you don't let them get below 300 health, which reduces their melee damage output and reduces their damage resistance (so if you hit their hit resistance is reduced) but they still have much smaller HP than you can possibly resist for a long time, so you've got to keep an eye on them (and keep an eye on how they change while at 100 Health): The first place players are going to get their hit resistance values used will be around the 400 level 1/8 modifier, meaning they'll receive a +3, but not a +7 because they have no idea how to tell if they've hit their target, and they're just going to look at their HP with their ranged, and this gives them an easy way to know if they've hit their target or in fact the target.

 

Come on, man.

 

7 minutes ago, Decay said:

If you think about it, neither is harder than the other.

 

Kaizo is much like fishing. Extreme patience and lots of repetition. Some people are good at it. Some people are not. They blame this on luck, but is it really luck? Honestly I don't think so, because the professional fishermen, who never not get anything, have very specific techniques to attract the fish. Then there's catching and releasing. In Kaizo, you also hold and release. A wiggle here. A wiggle there. Hold one button for a bit, then release it. Release your soul. Sometimes it fights. Sometimes it gets away and you die. But you do it again. And again. And again. Truthfully, the fishing pond in the legend of zelda games are more of a kaizo genre than you think. What kind of dastardly developers would put that in such a game. But I digress. Doom is the same. You pushing buttons. Input commands. Everything is pretty simple you see? At the very core these things are the same, just pushing buttons. Are you good at pushing buttons? I'd like to think I'm good at pushing buttons. Homer Simpson was a master of the craft and developed one of the first external TAS devices to do these things. Isn't that simply incredible? Anyway, making this kind of comparison really just goes nowhere because they are, in fact, the same thing. Pushing buttons. Input output. Restart, reset. Custom content and communities. Just remember, playing these things is like going fishing, except you're staying inside instead of being outside, even though outside is where it's at. Have you ever tried playing outside? It's kind of annoying with the sun glaring on the sky.

 

plus have you not seen the kaizo community isn't it great what a bunch of memers like holy heck man what a great time though doom's got a lot of memelords too really funny stuff and people take these topics so seriously I love reading all this text it just makes me so happy to see people so impassioned about these topics that are near and dear to their hearts and nobody gets upset or offended even when they are called rocks or braindead because they play games this is just great keep going guys this is an awesome thread and I'm glad I was able to contribute.

 

More lies. Fishing is FAR EASIER than Mario or Doom, or Chess for that matter, so long as you're in the right waters at the right time of year and with the right temperatures.

 

Super Mario world even has a fishing level, which is something that doesn't really really need repeating until you get to the level to complete these levels. I can't imagine a more fitting game name than it's the one that made that leap. It's a testament to Nintendo's ability to make the greatest shooters with the most realistic settings and, at its core, the best characters and action sequences. That's how it was supposed to look during its release. The only reason we haven't noticed anything other than that is because we haven't heard about any other games with the same story. But it's definitely true that Super Mario 3D World isn't exactly a super-diverse, or a collection of classic and completely non-super Mario titles that you can see yourself playing, right? The lack of an official video game title or an in-game description has never happened so far for the series in its entire life.

 

Conversely, Doomguy is often seen on Boats, yes, but does he ever fish? The first thing I learned about Boats is when I watched all the episodes the movie took place in, and I had some pretty good laughs at the end. I mean, it's not like he was getting paid (you get the idea), but at least it's interesting he isn't a fishing fisherman. Then as we all know when the two men were looking back on the movie back in 2004, he is actually a big fan of boating. What is the best way to approach Boats' life? Do you think it's different from many of the other activities most people do? He does an enormous amount of fishing. He just needs a little bit of time to do some work. It's a lot easier than most people think. He has lots of tools to do it. He just doesn't have any tools. With every boating session he just needs so much to do. As far as the fishing aspect of it, he does the big boats the most so he gets those smaller boats. He will only do his boat the way he wants to do the job. One day, he decided to fly and just go big on some of the smaller boats. He is such a big believer in what it takes. He had many different boating trips the last couple of years where he spent a good three of a half hours or so fishing at night.

 

At the end of the day, the longer I spend explaining the differences between fishing, Super Mario, Doom, Slaughter, and Beef Wellington, the more correct I become. The same goes for the non-fishing fish. There will always be more than one way to eat fish and when a fish will die (there would be only one), you can't change his flavor. In Super Mario Odyssey the player does the same with the Super Smash Bros. with the same fish. The player could be trying to go Super Smash Bros. as well as Mario though and the fish will die or just remain dormant. If you are trying to find the player that killed most fish this is just a joke. The same goes for Super Mario Odyssey with Bowser and Mario, who are both known to use different fish. Bowser has a more generic look for the fish that he sells to the fishfolk during a certain area of the level they are coming from. I don't think he actually takes his fish and feeds them like he does to him, though he makes a bit of a mess of them. However, when you see Bowser in red, you will think of the food and notice he has lots of new fish, which is not true. In Super Mario Odyssey Bowser used to be farmed like crazy which is a bit odd as he would harvest everything in a small area. In the Yoshi's Island game Bowser is just plain like most fish. He is not much of a food lover!

[Decay]

cool

[Master Medi]

9 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

 

Um, no. You're wrong, and frankly I'm insulted that you would say that.

 

Kaizo Doom is FAR harder, OBJECTIVELY. Super Mario Slaughter is by no means difficult. The final two moves in the game are rather predictable. While this is easily accomplished through simple movement of the platform, it is most definitely not necessary. With one exception there are no extra moves here and the platform is not always vertical. It also needs to be very well paced and a certain distance of the player is necessary to actually hit it. There are some glitches that I couldn't explain clearly enough, such as the slow in the bottom-right corner and the sudden move animation that takes a bit of time. The problem is that each of these glitches are only available during the level, so it's a great opportunity to replay the entire game. You need to be very careful. A quick aside. Let's see, what a Mario fan I am, it takes a long time to complete this game. It takes so long to master it because of all the technical glitches that are placed there - just waiting for it to die, wait for a glitch to be applied to one game, wait like the middle of a fire that would instantly burn you in the face. So if you are a Mario fan, then maybe a lot of your patience is wasted on this level. However you have to pay attention to what you are actually playing. Once you have that many hours spent playing this game you will get over the "pain". To do this you have to understand the mechanics, but ultimately all you will see is a little bit of fun.

 

Conversely, Kaizo Doom maps are the HARDEST. You'll have to make sure you know exactly what spells they use before you begin their attacks. You must keep an eye on their health, as if you saw a corpse the whole time you'd just hit them with a spell, you'd have to do this every time they were on top/bottom, not just the ones with their melee health (which doesn't count). If you're using damage attacks, you'll make sure you don't let them get below the health line and have to make sure you can attack each one with your ranged (your melee attacks also deal no damage) and also you need to make sure you don't let them get below 300 health, which reduces their melee damage output and reduces their damage resistance (so if you hit their hit resistance is reduced) but they still have much smaller HP than you can possibly resist for a long time, so you've got to keep an eye on them (and keep an eye on how they change while at 100 Health): The first place players are going to get their hit resistance values used will be around the 400 level 1/8 modifier, meaning they'll receive a +3, but not a +7 because they have no idea how to tell if they've hit their target, and they're just going to look at their HP with their ranged, and this gives them an easy way to know if they've hit their target or in fact the target.

 

Come on, man.

Nah dude, no way

[SleepyVelvet]

9 hours ago, dasho said:

 

Are there situations in chess where if you don't move your pawn in a frame-perfect manner it's an automatic checkmate for you?

 

5 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

To be fair, that is an extreme example of chess being played at a very, very high level... But I like to see stuff like this from time to time, so I'm not complaining, really...

 

But that's the whole point of this thread though - you guys are comparing against Vanilla Chess, not Kaizo Chess or Slaughter Chess:  Kaizo Chess, where you only do have moments to react to various, flickering, puzzle-like board states on your screen; and Slaughter Chess, which is like normal chess but on a 10,000 x 10,000 board with hundreds of times more pieces (though some house-rule variants let you play with the Big Fucking Piece, to speed things along).

[Astronomical]

Slaughter is a genre not a term for difficult maps.  Conceptually it is possible to have slaughter combat that is really easy, perhaps a room with 100 pinkies vs a player with a bfg.  Slaughter as a genre is all about dealing with relatively large amounts of enemies at one time, Scythe map 26 takes place in one arena with 400 or so enemies, while Dehydration has around 800 dotted around a map that I can finish within a span of a play through of Scythe. 

[Shepardus]

2 hours ago, NoisyVelvet said:

 

 

But that's the whole point of this thread though - you guys are comparing against Vanilla Chess, not Kaizo Chess or Slaughter Chess:  Kaizo Chess, where you only do have moments to react to various, flickering, puzzle-like board states on your screen; and Slaughter Chess, which is like normal chess but on a 10,000 x 10,000 board with hundreds of times more pieces (though some house-rule variants let you play with the Big Fucking Piece, to speed things along).

Since you obviously know more about chess than I do, what would you say is harder, Kaizo Chess or Slaughter Chess?

[Nine Inch Heels]

12 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Also you LITERALLY appealed to authority right after calling me out for appealing to popular opinion, haha! Surely I'm not the only one who sees the blatant irony in that!

Appeal to authority? Yeah, and for one hell of a good reason. Your line about circle strafing goats made clear that you have no clue about modern, hard slaughter, so why would I - or anybody else, for that matter - think you're any more qualified when it comes to Kaizo hacks, when you also regurgitate the oft debunked "Kaizo hacks so tight on everything, OMG" mantra, which is a stigma these hacks and the Kaizo community at large aren't deserving of? Anyway, Don't roll out the red carpet that was your reductio ad absurdum and then cry foul when someone actually walks on it...

 

12 hours ago, Doomkid said:

The strength of the character. In Doom, the baseline character can take numerous hits from enemies and keep going. With a megasphere, you can get hit a shitload of times and still stay alive. In Mario, the baseline character dies when touched by literally any enemy, and if you're powered up you can get hit once before reverting to your base state. The long-short of it is that a Doom player has ample room for fuckups compared to a Mario player, all other things being equal.

Where doomguy has a margin for error that is expressed in HP and armour which grants him some legroom in terms of chip-damage he can sustain (also a necessity because RNG is a thing), Mario has a margin for error that manifests itself in other ways, like for example the legroom with the timing and the precision that you like to argue doesn't exist. Would also need to add that enemies in doom are way more aggressive than your SMW regulars, so it's a wash at the very least anyway...

 

12 hours ago, Doomkid said:

The presence of a timer. There's no actual timelimit in Doom, yet some Kaizo hacks are specifically designed so that just a few mistakes means you'll be running out of time. There's no direct analog of this sort of pressure in Doom, beyond standing still in nukage or in front of enemies, or the very rare "Run From It" inspired maps, which are such a rare exception that they really don't factor in.

I'll just point to Scythe, for a "popular example" of a "timed map". Are there many maps like that? Nah. Doesn't mean jack, though, because in a tightly crafted fight, you're under time pressure too - it's just not a timer you see run out, you'll just see yourself getting swarmed by all sorts of shit eventually, because you've been working too slowly elsewhere - at least ROM hacks show you the timer instead of having the player "feel it out" like some slaughtermaps do in principle. Moot point, doubly so because many, many Kaizo levels give you more time than you would need at a bare minimum... Number of levels tight on time in GPW2 that I can remember: 3... And that's counting boss fights with tight timers, even if they're part of a level with an otherwise rather generous timer. So it's not like every Kaizo level is, at heart, a small speedrun in disguise...

 

12 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Screen real estate. You get VERY little time to react to an enemy as it comes on the screen in Mario, especially in a fundamentally fast-moving level. Yes, there are pop-up monsters, monsters behind doors or riding lifts, etc in Doom - but in general, with the exception of very cramped or non-interconnected layouts, the player has a lot more time to react to a rapidly approaching threat in Doom.

And you can't tell me that the supposedly slower pace of a hard setpiece fight makes it any more likely for you to one-shot it. You need to know what to do in Kaizo hacks just as much as you need to know what to do in big ass slaughtermaps - which is probably the most unifying quality these genres share despite their general differences.

 

If you're talking base game, then the base game is literally built around the screen real estate that is being provided, and it also seems as though Kaizo levels with super-fast scrolling sections tend to be made less and less, because most people seem to think it's actually a problem to take into account, rather than something to weaponize against players. Kaizo hacks are surprisingly "pro-player" in general these days, for that matter, and it's not just QoL stuff I'm talking about...

 

12 hours ago, Doomkid said:

The killing power of the character

Okay, getting tired of quoting the whole thing... Comparing the killing power of 2 characters in genres which happen to be worlds apart as far as the "need" to kill things is considered is not a discussion worth entertaining at any length imaginable.

 

12 hours ago, Doomkid said:

The lack of pinpoint-precision required in Doom gameplay. I mentioned this earlier as my primary point when it's really just one of several to consider. The average Kaizo Mario hack requires far more well-timed button presses than Doom maps ever will. This ain't subjective, it's a statement of fact. This one thing does not determine overall difficulty, but when coupled with all the other things that are also more difficult in average Kaizo hacks vs average Slaughter wads, it's more akin to icing on a cake.

What's also a matter of fact is that things like re-grabs for example are, or rather become muscle memory operations, just like "the mancubus dance" in classic doom is a muscle memory operation, just like 2-shotting cybs can be trained to become.... You get the idea.

 

Right, but here's where you are setting your own goalposts again, along with terms of your own - lacking in definition for anybody but you yourself -  and start talking about "average this, versus average that"... That's a talking point you brought into the discussion, again, without even doing so much specifying what the "average slaughterWAD" is that you speak of, never mind the "average Kaizo hack". This shit means nothing without context or substantiation, and it is grating to see you base an argument on something that is so lacking in anything tangible to work with or look at - it's baffling to me that you keep repeating it as if it meant anything at all... What's the average slaughtermap? Is it like, dimensions01, or is it sunder 14, or could it be newgothic2 map 10??? I don't know... nobody does, because you seem to be unwilling to put some meat on the very bone that you say was your primary point... And what is the average Kaizo hack? Is it akogare, is it any of the yumps, is it stuff made by morsel, is it super fart world (which actually exists and is hilarious as well as competently made)..?

 

At least we've finally found common ground in that how much precision something may or may not require is not the only thing that may or may not make anything difficult to some degree. We're still comparing precision platforming across relatively short sections - often 20 - 30 seconds when played flawlessly (not as high of a calling as you'd like to argue) - with fights that require consistency across several minutes - just one fight out of several in any give map... It's "short term precision" versus "long term consistency and adaptivity"... People would have beaten okuplok already if it wasn't so damn large. This stuff matters too, and you're arguing one matters more than the other, while my position is that the comparison is invalid right out the gate...

Edited February 24, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[Meowgi]

Maybe a more fair comparison would be "What's harder; UV Sunlust or Expert 100 Mario Challenge in Mario Maker 1?"

[ChopBlock223]

On 2/16/2022 at 5:22 PM, dasho said:

This seems like two completely dissimilar skillsets.

Agree wholeheartedly. Kaizo romhacks by definition are supposed to be unfair bullshit which you can only realistically savescum through to beat, it sidelines you at near every single turn. And that's the humor of it, the sheer audacity of making such a ridiculously hard and unplayable game.

 

Dooming doesn't really have an equivalent to this as a genre, and design sensibilities like those would widely be considered appalling and low quality. Sunlust, even at its hardest and slaughter-iest, never goes Kaizo.

 

That's not to say it can't exist, old .wads like Hell Revealed and Hell Revealed 2 touches on it, and I'm sure there's guys on YouTube who look for bad levels to suffer through (you know who you are), much like with Kaizo romhacks.

On 2/16/2022 at 7:01 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

There's also this common misconception that Kaizo hacks are all insanely tight and require near frame perfect precision, which has been debunked countless times already... Not only do Kaizo hacks vary a great deal in terms of difficulty (even though all of them involve difficult platforming) but even hacks that lean towards more difficult than average (GPW2, fly me to the stars, storks apes and crocodiles) are still lenient enough to allow for a reasonable degree of accessibility if you understand the basics of the tech that's required to beat a Kaizo level in the first place...

 

TL;DR: neither is harder

Alright, I'll stand corrected. I haven't looked at that many. I guess it evolved into a genre proper, like how NUTS.wad is technically slaughter, but nobody ever builds slaughter like that.

Though, NUTS.wad isn't like the progenitor of slaughter either.

[Nine Inch Heels]

8 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Agree wholeheartedly. Kaizo romhacks by definition are supposed to be unfair bullshit which you can only realistically savescum through to beat, it sidelines you at near every single turn. And that's the humor of it, the sheer audacity of making such a ridiculously hard and unplayable game.

See...? This is what I mean when I subject doomkid's "statistical evidence" that was gathered on this very site here to the mockery it deserves...

 

Look at Kaizo hacks like Invictus, Grand Poo World 2, or look for "akogare mario world", those hacks are all different in terms of how difficult they are, and none of them are built to be unfair to the degree that anyone with a genuine interest in Kaizo as a whole would deem them "unplayable"... There is enough material on the tube about all 3 of those hacks...

 

Obviously, you'll run into the occasional invisible block that makes a seemingly trivial jump a bit more technical all of a sudden, which, yes, is part and parcel of the sadistic humour behind Kaizo hacks, but, believe it or not, Invictus has 1 Kaizo block total... Literally just one. Meanwhile, GPW 2 has no Kaizo blocks in the first level as far as I remember (I found the first one in the second level of the hack along with one more that was very predictable)...

 

Anybody who unironically thinks that Kaizo hacks are supposed to be unplayable and frustrating torture devices at any given opportunity doesn't have their facts right... You are literally repeating the stigma Kaizo hacks and their respective creators seem to be wanting to actually get rid of. Clearly, there was a time when Kaizo hacks were meant to be nothing but nasty shit that was extremely frustrating and difficult to beat, but that's just not the case any more. The genre has come a long way, from "needlessly cruel" and not quite as difficult as most people think, to "slightly sadistic precision platforming". If anyone made a Kaizo hack these days that solely existed as a means to kill the player as often as possible, not matter how, when, and where, then it would be frowned upon, if not paraded around as an example for how to build a shitty ROM-hack...

 

This is also a matter of, as much as I hate to say it, "common sense"... Ask yourself if you think it's possible to maintain and grow a community for years on end when the sole reason for the creation of anything within that same community is to just inflict misery on someone else. Ask yourself where all the terryWADs and their respective mappers have gone, and then ask yourself why Kaizo hacks are popular these days.

 

31 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Dooming doesn't really have an equivalent to this as a genre, and design sensibilities like those would widely be considered appalling and low quality. Sunlust, even at its hardest and slaughter-iest, never goes Kaizo.

Yes, we have an equivalent to this. It's called "challenge maps", which is kind of like "slaughter's cousin". If you want one, play "dimensions" map02, or italo 07...

 

39 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Alright, I'll stand corrected. I haven't looked at that many. I guess it evolved into a genre proper, like how NUTS.wad is technically slaughter, but nobody ever builds slaughter like that.

NUTS is primarily a joke-WAD... It's the same category of joke that you would come to see in WADs like holy hell, which is also just very low effort mapping that throws a bunch of stuff at the player for bunch-of-stuff's sake...

[ChopBlock223]

On 2/17/2022 at 3:13 AM, Nine Inch Heels said:

There is a stark difference between using saves prior to a difficult section in any map/level/whatever so they can be fully understood and practised, and saving every 10 seconds in a fight that has not been understood at all while using "pray" so somehow, after enough saves and loads, one makes it out the other end... As in: There is a difference between using saves to learn something so it actually becomes easier, and save-scumming to circumvent the need to develop a thorough understanding of whatever it is one is currently being brick-walled by...

I have to say that this is very excellently put, I see the question of savestates and their legitimacy come back around in some places, over and over, and some people just don't see this difference.

[Nine Inch Heels]

38 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

I have to say that this is very excellently put, I see the question of savestates and their legitimacy come back around in some places, over and over, and some people just don't see this difference.

I think savestates are the greatest thing since sliced bread, provided people use them in a way that doesn't end up being a lot more frustrating than things would need to be...

 

There is this "guide" called "full extent of the jam" by a shmup legend called "prometheus"... It's actually a pretty good read for something that is meant to serve as guide for a very niche kind of game, but it goes into many things, such as productive practice-routines (which apply to all kinds of games), and... how savestates enable them...

 

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34497

[ChopBlock223]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Anybody who unironically thinks that Kaizo hacks are supposed to be unplayable and frustrating torture devices at any given opportunity doesn't have their facts right... You are literally repeating the stigma Kaizo hacks and their respective creators seem to be wanting to actually get rid of. Clearly, there was a time when Kaizo hacks were meant to be nothing but nasty shit that was extremely frustrating and difficult to beat, but that's just not the case any more.

That's been all that I've known of them this entire time, and probably because I never did a deep dive into them.

I suspect that I'm not alone in that either, that to many people their perception of Kaizo is watching a video of someone desperately and in great frustration trying to make progress.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

This is also a matter of, as much as I hate to say it, "common sense"... Ask yourself if you think it's possible to maintain and grow a community for years on end when the sole reason for the creation of anything within that same community is to just inflict misery on someone else.

Again, until today I didn't know there was a Kaizo community, or that there was more to them besides the famously unfair ones from back in the day. I had assumed it was a novelty niche of romhacking from years back which wasn't actually explored or developed much. All of this is new information to me.

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Yes, we have an equivalent to this. It's called "challenge maps", which is kind of like "slaughter's cousin". If you want one, play "dimensions" map02, or italo 07...

I'll have to take a look at those.

Do you mean Dimensions Of Time?

[CittyKat112]

2 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

That's been all that I've known of them this entire time, and probably because I never did a deep dive into them.

I suspect that I'm not alone in that either, that to many people their perception of Kaizo is watching a video of someone desperately and in great frustration trying to make progress.

 

 

Again, until today I didn't know there was a Kaizo community, or that there was more to them besides the famously unfair ones from back in the day. I had assumed it was a novelty niche of romhacking from years back which wasn't actually explored or developed much. All of this is new information to me.

 

I'll have to take a look at those.

Do you mean Dimensions Of Time?

Nah, NIH was talking about THIS: 

 

[dasho]

Quote

This is also a matter of, as much as I hate to say it, "common sense"... Ask yourself if you think it's possible to maintain and grow a community for years on end when the sole reason for the creation of anything within that same community is to just inflict misery on someone else

 

You realize you're posting this on perhaps the greatest medium for trolling ever invented by man, right?

[JustCallMeKaito]

Slaughter is like threading a needle.

Kaizo is threading a needle, only now you have a guy named Jimbo who won't stop slapping you.

[Captain POLAND]

4 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Ask yourself where all the terryWADs and their respective mappers have gone, and then ask yourself why Kaizo hacks are popular these days.

 

Maybe we should ask which are harder, Kaizo Mario hacks or Terry WADs?