Plutonia levels that were TNT Evilution outtakes

[Cybernight Zero]

I recently did a playthrough for both episodes of Final Doom. I read on Doom Wiki that the Casali brothers submitted several levels for inclusion on TNT's megawad, and of course, most know which four were included(Pharoah, Caribbean, Mill, and Heck). The Doom Wiki states that there were four more levels that were rejected from Evilution but included in Plutonia. It didn't however actually say which four. (They were rejected because they were too large, too hard etc)

 

I was wondering if that information is known or recorded somewhere just out of curiosity.

 

After the recent campaign of each, I'll take a blind guess. The three that seem likely to have originally been meant for Evilution might be: 1. Tombstone 2. Impossible Mission 3. Sewers 4. ? Possibly, Bunker, or....I might get some heat for this but....possibly Odyssey of Noises. The other three I chose because they didn't seem to quite fit with the rest of Plutonia but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them.

 

What are your thoughts? (I did search the topic for any possible existing thread but came up short.)

[Yumheart]

I actually don't know anything about the topic, but your guesses make a lot of sense to me. The maps you listed are a lot less linear and larger than most of Plutonia and they don't use the typical Plutonia textures as much as the other ones (excluding Bunker), iirc, so it would make sense that they were made for a different megawad originally.

[ImproversGaming]

There is someone that knows: @DCasali

I believe he discussed this on his playthrough of Plutonia - well worth a watch if you like these types of details as he discusses them. Found it really enjoyable with lots of historic insights!

 

 

[Cybernight Zero]

7 hours ago, ImproversGaming said:

There is someone that knows: @DCasali

I believe he discussed this on his playthrough of Plutonia - well worth a watch if you like these types of details as he discusses them. Found it really enjoyable with lots of historic insights!

 

 

Ok, I've seen these. He does offer insight into the development but his memory was a bit sketchy. Which is understanding considering that was what 26 years ago or so. 

[ChopBlock223]

Rejected TNT maps being used in Plutonia? Does that statement have any citation, if not, does anyone know where it might have been sourced from?

[DCasali]

Plutonia does contain a few maps that were excluded from TNT. I don't remember exactly which ones, I went back through to try to jog my memory, but it didn't help much. I think map 09 Abattoir was one of them, and if I had to guess it'd be map 02 (Well of Souls) and perhaps map 08 (Realm). The maps were part of TNT until it was agreed to be sold to ID, then existing concerns about difficulty lead to their removal. Milo and I didn't want to reduce the difficulty because we were in a different mindset than most of the rest of the TNT team. We were more excited about providing a challenge and weren't worried about going against established conventions. 

 

We also weren't crazy about the range of quality of the maps in TNT. That, and because there had already been disagreements about TNT and what should be in it, Milo and I started building our own set of maps that delivered what we were more interested in playing ourselves. 

[ChopBlock223]

3 hours ago, DCasali said:

We also weren't crazy about the range of quality of the maps in TNT. That, and because there had already been disagreements about TNT and what should be in it, Milo and I started building our own set of maps that delivered what we were more interested in playing ourselves. 

That's really interesting. Opinions on TNT: Evilution has actually remained mixed throughout the years, some think it stinks, others think it's excellent, while guys like me think it's a mixed bag with a lot of good stuff, but also a lot of weak or even bad stuff.

 

The atmosphere, and particularly the music seems widely appreciated even by detractors, however.

Plutonia, of course, remains regarded as the better half by many, its gameplay carrying strong influence even today.

 

How much do you recall about the development of TNT, and do you think you'd ever give it a play some day, giving your thoughts on the levels?

[DCasali]

5 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

That's really interesting. Opinions on TNT: Evilution has actually remained mixed throughout the years, some think it stinks, others think it's excellent, while guys like me think it's a mixed bag with a lot of good stuff, but also a lot of weak or even bad stuff.

 

The atmosphere, and particularly the music seems widely appreciated even by detractors, however.

Plutonia, of course, remains regarded as the better half by many, its gameplay carrying strong influence even today.

 

How much do you recall about the development of TNT, and do you think you'd ever give it a play some day, giving your thoughts on the levels?

Thanks for your words about Plutonia. Development of TNT was pretty fun for the most part. It was exciting to be part of a big collection of people contributing to a polished product. I learned a lot from the forums that Team TNT came out of, and there were some really talented and nice people on that team. We were all amateurs and pretty young at the time, so it's remarkable that we had the kind of co-operation we did! 

 

Even before the prospect of ID publishing the project came about, I was getting a little restless with things because I wanted to create more and more content. I would sit at work and think of ideas, make a sketch, then immediately when I got home I'd start building. People were starting to say how my brother and I were submitting too many maps, and they didn't want us monopolizing Evilution. That sentiment grew much stronger when ID came into the picture and added motivation for Milo and I to put our own thing together. We originally wanted to make 7 maps and release them as a mini map pack. When three of ours were excluded from Evilution, we added those and sent ten to ID. 

[Cybernight Zero]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:35 PM, DCasali said:

Plutonia does contain a few maps that were excluded from TNT. I don't remember exactly which ones, I went back through to try to jog my memory, but it didn't help much. I think map 09 Abattoir was one of them, and if I had to guess it'd be map 02 (Well of Souls) and perhaps map 08 (Realm). The maps were part of TNT until it was agreed to be sold to ID, then existing concerns about difficulty lead to their removal. Milo and I didn't want to reduce the difficulty because we were in a different mindset than most of the rest of the TNT team. We were more excited about providing a challenge and weren't worried about going against established conventions. 

 

We also weren't crazy about the range of quality of the maps in TNT. That, and because there had already been disagreements about TNT and what should be in it, Milo and I started building our own set of maps that delivered what we were more interested in playing ourselves. 

Thanks, I appreciate this "mystery" being addressed. 

[Cybernight Zero]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:10 PM, ChopBlock223 said:

Rejected TNT maps being used in Plutonia? Does that statement have any citation, if not, does anyone know where it might have been sourced from?

Actually, I thought I read it on Doom WIki, for Plutonia, but now I'm not sure. I did find however an interview with Ty Halderman where he does confirm that the four cut levels ended up in Plutonia. (Which is awesome)

[Bob9001]

On 2/22/2022 at 6:25 PM, lff-2000 said:

Thanks, I appreciate this "mystery" being addressed. 

This is really interesting to read, I have a few questions Mr. Casali:

 

1. If you had to make both Plutonia and TNT today what major differences would you implement?

 

2. Regarding TNT; did you expect the amount of speedrun demos to made for that wad?

 

3. What is your favourite map to play/make in Plutonia and TNT?

 

Thank you very much for making two great wads and being a big part of my gaming childhood!