Repeating MIDIs in the same WAD - good or not?

[rzh]

I've had this question on my mind for a while, but essentially, looking at old commercial games, they all have more levels than tracks in their soundtrack.

Doom 1 & 2, TNT, Descent 1 & 2, Blood, Heretic, they all reuse tracks. Hell, even Hexen, which has more tracks than levels, doesn't avoid this somehow.

Yet every single modern (and many classic) community WADs seem to focus on the idea of using a track per level exclusively.

Although at first I assumed this was much better, since now every level "feels" unique, I realized that upon finishing most .wads, I struggle to remember most of the soundtrack.

Stand-out tracks are stand-out tracks, but the majority/ rest of a soundtrack blends together for me, however, I can remember the soundtracks that reused songs more often than not, almost entirely off the top of my head.

Is there a valid reason, artistically speaking, for reusing MIDIs in the same WAD?

Could a slight remix/ revision/ variation of some MIDIs help out a soundtrack more than composing entirely new tracks for levels with a similar mood/ atmosphere?

Edited March 5, 2022 by rzh

[Rudolph]

I prefer each map having their own unique track, which thankfully has been the philosophy of the recent community MIDI packs, such as TNT MIDI Pack.

 

That being said, I do not recall Duke Nukem 3D reusing tracks. I guess that is one area where it is definitely an improvement over Doom!

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Rudolph

[rzh]

5 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I prefer each map having their own unique track, which thankfully has been the philosophy of the recent community MIDI packs, such as TNT MIDI Pack.

 

That being said, I do not recall Duke Nukem 3D reusing tracks. I guess that is one area where it is definitely an improvement over Doom!

 

 

Yeah, you're right about Duke Nukem. Shows how much I like the game I guess... Thank you for the correction!

As for the TNT MIDI Pack, I'm probably blaspheming but I removed all the tracks that replaced the unique default TNT tracks and I use it that way.

[Rudolph]

@rzh I have my issues with the game too, but having recently experimented with its soundtrack, I was pleasantly surprised to find out how many tracks there were. Once again, we owe a debt of gratitude to both Bobby Prince and especially Lee Jackson! :P

 

As for "blaspheming", however, do not sweat it: I added Doom II tracks to the Ultimate Doom to replace the repeated tracks and vice-versa.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

I find repeating tracks can feel very cinematic in a wad. Hearing Shawn's got the Shotgun for the third (?) time in The Living End feels very epic, like a reprise of the themes of the game. Same with TNT using Into the Beast's Belly in Map30. It feels epic and impact full, but only when used right. Some of the repeat tracks in Doom 1 and 2 get a little old, but I think in certain ways it helps the wad be more memorable.

[GraphicBleeder]

I prefer when each map has a unique MIDI, but it doesn't ruin my gameplay experience if it doesn't.

[Rudolph]

If anything, there is always The Long Trek Back Home's approach, which does feature different remixes of the same tunes. I have not had the time yet, but I am considering extracting the different remixes and using them as replacement tracks for Doom II's duplicates.

[Lippeth]

Recurring songs in wads never bothered me, but I'm glad it bothers others because I liked being a part of all the MIDI projects. I must admit that I never actually use any of the MIDI packs to play the wads they're intended for because the reused songs never bothered me to begin with, and if a song is good then I'm happy to hear it again in a new context.

 

It would be neat to see a remix project for the repeated songs in an existing wad so that they're different enough but have the same melodies and changes, like a motif in a film soundtrack.

[PasokonDeacon]

More custom soundtracks using extensive leitmotif ought to solve your issue with not remembering particular songs. I get why it hasn't really been a thing outside of a few instances: more effort spent on coordinating motifs and structural similarities in tracks means less entirely standalone tracks which can be borrowed for other projects. Ideally you'd want a selection of motifs sized accordingly to the mapset's size and map lengths, which can possibly lead to some incongruence between WIP maps and their MIDI choices during main development and then during the polishing stages. Some mappers like to have "the vibe" set in stone much earlier on, making it imperative to have a fully-fledged track ready to go. This can interfere with building a soundtrack along the lines of recurring motifs.

[Zaxxon]

If the MIDI is bad, then it's even worse if it returns later in the megawad. If it's good, you'll probably be happy to hear it again, without having to search for it on the internet, or replaying the same map. Me personally, i'm kinda tired of MIDIs. My musical taste doesn't correspond well with the popular modern Doom wad composers and their funny, jumpy, anime-like soundtracks, which i think have no place in Doom. That's why, when i start a blind megawad playthrough, i keep the soundtrack for maybe 2-3 maps, and if i like it i'll keep it on, but if i don't like it, i'll turn it off and run some metal playlists that i think fit well with Doom.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Zaxxon

[D4NUK1]

I like when recurring MIDI have they uses in specific situations of the .wad like atmosphere tension or suspense. It's make tracks memorable when you know the song, like E1M8.

 

Action packed it's more hard to follow I prefer being individual songs that fit the . wad

Edited March 5, 2022 by D4NUK1

[roadworx]

while i do prefer each map having a unique midi, repeating midis can definitely be done well. it needs to be done somewhat rarely, though, in order for it to really be good.

 

doom 2, however, does it in a way that's kinda shit lol

[Snark]

One of the coolest things to do is have you "return" to a level you previously visited but where something drastic has happened, like 1000 years have passed or the place has been corrupted by hell, and have a variation of the midi previously used.

[DavitW]

The Super Mario World and Goldeneye 007 approach is definitely a good way to go about it. Remixes and variations on the same theme or melody.

[FEZ_GG]

I share that sentiment beyond just Doom.  Mega Man's another case where I have a hard time recalling each individual piece, even though I'm rocking out to those tunes in the moment.  Reusing music helps make the tracks a lot more memorable, especially when given proper theming.  I think this can be done in Doom, but it's at its most effective when the levels that reuse that one track share a level theme, such as 2 lava maps, or 2 small, action-packed maps like Dead Simple.

[Doomkid]

Reprises and remixes are always welcome in my book. Using the exact same midi again can also work, but even just a slight variation can work wonders in reducing the feeling of repetitiveness.

[Dark Pulse]

One of the main reasons I can't get into Doom II nearly as much is because the same goddamn songs are playing multiple times. And while that's good if they're good songs, that's way more noticeable when they're not.

[Azuris]

Well it depends, a special Track can be used for a certain (Level) Theme.

 

Just think of the imperial March from Star Wars or Sephirots one winged Angel.

 

A recurring Theme can tell the Player that Shit is going on, that it is depressing Level, a sneaky one et cetera.

 

If they are well done, they will burn into the Brain of People :)

[Nefelibeta]

Struggle reuses some tracks/remixed version, and I think it's used well there.

I remember Going Down also reuses some tracks. But probably because Cyriak is only composer and being lazy sometimes is not a big deal.

[rzh]

4 hours ago, Nefelibeta said:

I remember Going Down also reuses some tracks. But probably because Cyriak is only composer and being lazy sometimes is not a big deal.

I wouldn't say it's being lazy considering that he would've had to compose 34-35 tracks all by himself.

4 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

One of the main reasons I can't get into Doom II nearly as much is because the same goddamn songs are playing multiple times. And while that's good if they're good songs, that's way more noticeable when they're not.

Yeah, it doesn't help that I never liked Doom II's music. Or in Heretic's case where Raven reused E1's music when E2 has plenty of great tracks. I guess that they wanted a bookend kind of deal, or maybe they thought that they should reuse the music from E1 in E3 because they assumed that E2 and E3 are too close for a player doing a full run and wanted to avoid repeating tracks in levels that come one after the other storywise. Heretic has an amazing soundtrack, but one can only listen to The Docks so many times. I liked the way Descent 1 did it, with Level 12 and Level 21 using the same track, but with different configurations.

[erzboesewicht]

I like the idea to repeat motifs or remix tracks inside a wad, above all if it's a full 20+ map megawad. Unfortunately I saw this approach seldomly, the main exception (I've not played that many wads) being Eternal Doom which did it pretty well. Simply repeating tracks can also work, I guess it has to do much with the way the MIDI tracks match the atmosphere of the maps.

[BaileyTW]

By default I do like more tracks. More midis feeling the theme of maps is always good, but a thematic repeat of a midi can be neat, but remixing that midi would be even better if even slightly. Of course it's always understandable if this cant be the case. More midis is better but that doesn't mean less is bad.

[Paf]

On 3/5/2022 at 4:57 PM, rzh said:

a whole essay

Depends. If it's like a BTSX hub map, sure.

 

Actually, here's a more detailed response:

 

Let's say, you use the same midi in a short map and long map. How long is the map VS the midi? If the short map is 5 minutes long, and the long map is 20 minutes long, and the midi is under 6, IMO, no.

 

If the midi is under 10 but above 6, it's more acceptable. The best is if the midi is above 10 minutes long, it'll be fine in my opinion. 

 

Actually, what if it's a BTSX hub map?

 

BTSX hub map midis are under 5 minutes long IIRC and the hubs are a lot shorter than that. They also loop well, I wouldn't mind them being used for a 10 or even 15-minute-long map, because they're so atmospheric and loop surprisingly well.

 

Actually, what if it's a scary/not scary atmospheric map that's actually not a hub?

 

Same as above.

 

I hope this helps.

 

also:

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Paf

[ImproversGaming]

I am pretty bad at paying attention to music and often have the music volume quite low (unless there is something I really like), so I may not be the target for the question.

However, it can jar me and my immersion in the game if something repetitive jumps out. As a broad generalisation I would probably prefer if the music was not great than if it was repeated. Agree with Doomkid too, tweaking a track to make it notably different on a later wad would work for me.

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

I generally prefer unique midis, but if a midi is solid I don't mind hearing it again. It can sometimes be a quite effective idea too. Ozonia's re-usage of the first map's midi in each of the interludes springs to mind as a very effective one that did well for the set's atmosphere.

[Nikku4211]

MIDIs... ah...

 

While I prefer unique MIDIs over outright using the same exact MIDI, using a remix of the MIDI again can make it feel a bit more fresh.

 

And either way, I'll be able to enjoy more Roland Sound Canvas goodness for longer...

 

On 3/5/2022 at 6:26 PM, Zaxxon said:

Me personally, i'm kinda tired of MIDIs. 

 

To be honest, it is annoying when you're composing a song without any control over how exactly your song will sound like, especially since depending on what people use to play the MIDI, it can be anywhere from good, to okay-ish but a bit bland, to completely messed up.

 

I'm more a fan of sampled tracker modules, which have a sound that is more consistent no matter what you use to play them because the samples are specified by the module file itself.

While some Doom source ports support it(especially SDL-based ports), vanilla doesn't, so I've since learned to love the SC-55 and get an ST MIDI module.

 

On 3/5/2022 at 6:26 PM, Zaxxon said:

My musical taste doesn't correspond well with the popular modern Doom wad composers and their funny, jumpy, anime-like soundtracks, which i think have no place in Doom.

 

It would be so awesome to hear I Sawed The Demons in an anime somewhere, and maybe hear At Doom's Gate as the OP. Maybe with Legion of the Lost being the credits theme.

 

Pretty interesting that you say 'anime-like' music has no place in Doom, though. What kind of anime are you thinking of?

 

It's also interesting because Bobby Prince himself thought that the metal music he made for Doom did not fit the game at all, and believed the more ambient tracks he made fit the game better.

 

On 3/6/2022 at 1:27 AM, Doomkid said:

Using the exact same midi again can also work, but even just a slight variation can work wonders in reducing the feeling of repetitiveness.

On 3/5/2022 at 7:18 PM, roadworx said:

doom 2, however, does it in a way that's kinda shit lol

 

Dang, remixing the same songs over and over again... Now I have got to make an official Nikku4211 MIDI pack.

 

Oh, and by the way, some interesting things to mention about the original IWAD soundtracks.

There are 2 slightly different versions of 'Hiding the Secrets', 'Demons on the Prey', 'Intermission from Doom', and 'Waltz of the Demons' in the Doom 1 IWAD.
Doom 2 also has 2 slightly different versions of 'The Dave D. Taylor Blues' in its IWAD.

 

In-game, the differences are only audible when it comes to the versions of 'Waltz of the Demons' and 'The Dave D. Taylor Blues'.

 

While the former only has a different bass volume, the latter has slight compositional differences as well, like in the version present in later levels: the intro being a bit longer, an additional crash cymbal in the beginning, the final lead note being indefinite, and the descending tones being played by the same instrument after the 6th repeat instead of a different one.

 

But yeah, in Doom 1 and 2's IWADs, there are duplicate MIDIs that are 1:1 in terms of bytes, and duplicates that aren't 1:1 byte-for-byte but are still audibly identical in-game. I'll let you decide whether or not the audibly different dupe MIDIs are different enough to not be too boring during gameplay.

 

Either way, they're most certainly not complete re-arrangements.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Nikku4211

[Murdoch]

I would classify it as not completely ideal, but far from the worst thing in the world so long as 1) they don't repeat too often and 2) they are not ear bleedingly awful.

[Zaxxon]

7 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

It would be so awesome to hear I Sawed The Demons in an anime somewhere, and maybe hear At Doom's Gate as the OP. Maybe with Legion of the Lost being the credits theme.

 

Now wait a minute... Why are you giving these as an example? I never said the original music sounds like anime music. I said that i find most modern wad music unfitting and anime-like to me, personally. I like the original Doom and Doom 2 soundtracks for the most part. I also like a lot of custom wad soundtracks from the 90's and the 2000's. I just tend to dislike more and more the music as i go further towards nowadays. That of course doesn't mean that i don't like any modern wad soundtracks, not to mention, i still have a lot of wads to play to be more concrete about it, but at the moment this is my opinion, and i'll give you an example below.

 

Quote

Pretty interesting that you say 'anime-like' music has no place in Doom, though. What kind of anime are you thinking of?

 

I don't think of specific anime, because i don't like anime, in fact, i hate anime. Yes, i said the music sounds anime-like, because that's what it makes me think of anime when i hear it. Again,  it's a matter of personal taste and feel. And here's my example of that and the type of music i find unfitting in a Doom game:

 

Spoiler

 

 

To me, this sounds very anime-like. It doesn't matter if i'm right or wrong, because this is what i feel. Now i'm not saying all of BTSX music is like that, but honestly, i don't like most of it.

 

Quote

It's also interesting because Bobby Prince himself thought that the metal music he made for Doom did not fit the game at all, and believed the more ambient tracks he made fit the game better.

 

Again, that doesn't matter to me. I like the original soundtrack, and i didn't like the Doom 64 music, so for me, he was wrong to think that. Doom is an action packed, shooter game, keep the depressing ambient for horror games. And before you ask, yes, i didn't like Quake 1 soundtrack as well, i think Quake 2 has much better and more fitting soundtrack, given the type of game it is. As for Doom, i think any type of industrial metal or industrial music in general, with some rhythm to it, is the best way to go. What wouldn't i give to hear Quake 2's, SiN's or a similar soundtrack in a Doom wad...

 

Spoiler

 

 

But at the end it doesn't really matter, because everyone is free to put the type of music they like into their wads, and follow their vision for it. I want to be clear, that i'm not trying to tell others what's right or wrong. I need to say this, because opinions that deviate from the norm tend to be misunderstood sometimes.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Zaxxon

[Nikku4211]

7 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

I don't think of specific anime, because i don't like anime, in fact, i hate anime.

 

Understandable. Anime does get bland.

 

7 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

To me, this sounds very anime-like. It doesn't matter if i'm right or wrong, because this is what i feel. Now i'm not saying all of BTSX music is like that, but honestly, i don't like most of it.

 

Oh, BRB, making a BTSX anime OP...

[DeathWalkerGT]

Its always nice to have something new in a new WAD but if you plan on having the same one just try to "build" the MIDI around the level meaning if you plan say create a WAD with a cetain amount of action then you need a MIDI that makes the player feel that action. On the other hand if you plan making a map with say less fighting  just put the a more suitable MIDI for it maybe a slow one wich "builds" tension and instills fear with in the player (If this is even possible).