Would you say Doom (1993) is much more advanced game than Wolf 3D (1992)?

[mrthejoshmon]

Objectively no,

 

In Doom the Shooting Nazis/Stabbing Nazis ratio is significantly lower than Wolfenstein, this to me indicates a vastly inferior product.

 

This is why Doom 2 is better, you can shoot Nazis in that one.

 

Case solved, moving onwards.

Edited March 9, 2022 by mrthejoshmon

[MFG38]

Doom is objectively more advanced than Wolf3D. There's no "I'd say" about it.

[gwain]

8 hours ago, Stupid Bunny said:

>sliding bloacks/doors

how wolf 3dworks is that badguys and level stuff can change on the fly (a bit like build in a way) 

so instead of having like doom stuff where the badguys live in an almost static level wolf 3d is more like pacman 

 

its pretty cool if you look into it

[DoomBoomer]

Obviously Doom is much more advanced than Wolf3d. More weapons, that use different ammo, and more enemies that bring variety, and... Drastically improved engine.

[dasho]

6 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Doom 2 is just the same as Doom despite being from the next year. Only with added enemies, item, weapon. It is not any more advanced.

 

At some point in history there was one year between when man had never been on the moon and when man had been on the moon. That doesn't mean that you can expect them to be on Mars one year after that.

[Gibbon]

Is this even serious?  
 

Yes Doom is still similar in terms of weapon sprites.  However the animations are superior, the sprite movement and detail are superior, the textures are superior and the engine capability is superior.

 

This is like saying is Oblivion more advanced than Morrowind.

[BGreener]

9 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

This is like saying is Oblivion more advanced than Morrowind.

That would be an interesting discussion for another forum! Unless we’re talking about AI and graphics. I miss my open towns and settlements, though, but there are plenty of other differences between it and Morrowind that are very interesting.

[Redneckerz]

6 hours ago, Technicolor said:

 

Doom 2 is same as Doom 1. It is not any more advanceded than Doom 1.

 

Extre enemies, item, weapon is added to the game. That is it.

 

If that's it, then Doom is more advanced than Wolf 3D.

 

That is it.

6 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Why would you compare 1981 with 2019?

In the same frame of mind that you would ask if Doom is more advanced than Wolf 3D?

 

This is ofcourse ignoring the humorous intent of the quoted poster.

8 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

Is this even serious?

Would you say Hacx is more advanced than Strife?

 

If i had to hazard an actually serious guess, it would be that the OP might be impressed by the visual difference in barely a year and thus then asks if Doom is more advanced because it only has been a year?

 

It still makes zero sense to me (or to most of this thread apparently) why this is even a question - The obviousness of it is a dead ringer.

[TasAcri]

Well, yeah.

 

Wolf 3D can only make orthogonal rooms and boxy corridors. That's it. You can't do much with that.

 

In DOOM you can make almost anything, with a few limitations.

[The Almighty Egg]

Is the sky blue?

[TasAcri]

Some more interesting spins:

 

Is DOOM more advanced than Alien VS Predator (Jaguar)?

 

Is DOOM more advanced than Ultima Underworld?

 

Is DOOM more advanced than Rise of the Triad?

 

Spoiler

Yes to all

 

[Redneckerz]

39 minutes ago, Eggman07 said:

Is the sky blue?

Better - Is the sky FIREBLU?

 

[blackthorn]

11 hours ago, Stupid Bunny said:

• Idle animations, patrols

The lack of patrolling enemies in Doom is an interesting one that never occurred to me before you mentioned it. Has anyone ever modded something like that in?

[Gez]

36 minutes ago, blackthorn said:

The lack of patrolling enemies in Doom is an interesting one that never occurred to me before you mentioned it. Has anyone ever modded something like that in?

Yeah, it's been in ZDoom since forever ago. (Yep, that's December 1998; the feature is more than old enough to drink in the USA. I'm not sure how exactly it'd drink; but it legally could.)

 

It's been very, very, very rarely used. I think the most prominent mod to use that feature is Stronghold: On the Edge of Chaos.

[Kute]

31 minutes ago, blackthorn said:

The lack of patrolling enemies in Doom is an interesting one that never occurred to me before you mentioned it. Has anyone ever modded something like that in?

Yea I have to confess I've never actually paid attention to this. I've never made a map so I'm completely ignorant on this stuff. If you had put a gun to my head yesterday, I might have said some of them patrol. I'm so used to hearing arachnotron pistons long before I see them. And when you get sniped all the way across the map. But I just never paid it any heed

[Solmyr]

Its not a matter of opinion but fact, Doom is indeed far more advanced than Wolf 3D. However modded DOS wolf 3D can have similar features to vanilla Doom (i.e: damaging floors, teleporting enemies, and a skybox), and more advanced ones than it, and also non extended DeHackEd Doom (i.e: paralax skybox, status ailments, interactive decorations that display messages, underwater effects, wall traps that shoots fireballs, exploding walls a la Catacomb 3D). 

I don't know if there are DeHackEd mods from back in the day that replicate some of the more advanced modded DOS wolf3D features i've mentioned, i only know Batman Doom and while its fairly impressive for the time, it doesn't have weather effects nor trap walls that shoot fireballs like Spear: End of Destiny and The Orb of Dilaaria has. I don't know how it works maybe DOS wolf is easier to mod than Doom executables therefore is not that impressive to have advanced features.

 

Here's some examples from The Orb of Dilaaria.

Spoiler

Rain effect with an animated ceiling the skybox can be seen in the background.

Not pictured: flashing screen that simulates lightning.

Blood rain effect.

Damaging floor, on the background there is a wall trap that shoots fireballs.

Red Touchplate, that works simillar to Doom's linedefs.

Underwater effect, it's not only the screen that changes but the sounds are muffled as well, on the HUD there is an oxygen indicator, several status effects such as poison, slow, stop and invulnerability are displayed as varios small icons that appear and blink when they are wearing off.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Solmyr

[RagnarRandom]

now, is it your opinion that you would get more meat from slaughtering an elephant than from slaughtering a squirrel? in my opinion, there is more meat on an elephant.

[Murdoch]

The sliding doors in Wolfenstein 3D are kind of an illusion. It's a thing that essentially disappears when you activate it - that's why you can shoot through it as soon as it is activated, and enemies can shoot you too. The sliding is an animation with no real game world presence.

 

The pushwalls are basically just moving a block on a grid from one spot to another. So yes while Doom technically cannot do it, it's not really evidence of something terribly advanced over Doom because it's just manipulating far more primitive map geometry and rendering.

 

Patrolling enemies, yes. I knew there was one feature I was forgetting that Wolfenstein definitely did better than Doom, I just could not recall it at the time. I think being able to set patrols would add a lot to Doom.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Murdoch

[DannyMan]

3 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Would you say Hacx is more advanced than Strife?

On god?

[Dusty_Rhodes]

11 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Doom 2 is just the same as Doom despite being from the next year. Only with added enemies, item, weapon. It is not any more advanced.

Lol this isn't even true. Doom 2 added quite a few linedef actions. Off the top of my head: switches that require keys, fast doors, floor lower 512 units (used only once in game, I believe), fast lifts, etc. Not only that, it added more definitions for animated floors and walls. Slimfalls and Bloodfalls, as well as the brown sludge all weren't in Doom. 

 

The reason you don't notice these features is that The Ultimate Doom, released in 1995, added all of these to Doom, as well as the definitions needed for a fourth episode. 

 

So Doom 2 actually added a lot of engine features, besides, are all those code pointers used by the new enemies, the super shotgun, and the new generic things (like the lights) not considered advancements? I think they are. The megasphere sure added a lot too the gameplay, but isn't much of an advancement. 

 

Before you argue "semantics", this really does matter because for the two years Doom was out, no IWAD or PWAD for it had this capability. Just like how Gibbon back ported MBF's Sky Transfer linedef actions to ReBoom. Regular old Boom doesn't support them.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Dusty_Rhodes

[Dusty_Rhodes]

3 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Better - Is the sky FIREBLU?

 

I thank Lee Killough every day that MBF allows me to do this.

 

@Solmyr I had no idea Wolf3D modding is that advanced. That's really interesting and I'd definitely like to play that sometime. Any other Wolf3D mods you recommend?

 

@Murdoch apparently, according to @Gez, ZDoom added that feature a while back. So Doom in Hexen has some really neat features I didn't know about thanks for the info Gez and Murdoch, I didn't know how Wolf3D doors worked, really interesting. My assumption was that it polyobjects, Hexen style. Of course the calcutions for that to run on a 286 are probably way out there. Still, Power PC CPUs could barely handle the Mac port at max resolution, what was up with that hack job?

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

11 minutes ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Lol this isn't even true. Doom 2 added quite a few linedef actions. Off the top of my head: switches that require keys, fast doors, floor lower 512 units (used only once in game, I believe), fast lifts, etc. Not only that, it added more definitions for animated floors and walls. Slimfalls and Bloodfalls, as well as the brown sludge fall weren't in Doom. 

 

The reason you don't notice these features is that The Ultimate Doom, released in 1995, added all of these to Doom, as well as the definitions needed for a fourth episode. 

 

So Doom 2 actually a lot of engine features, besides, are all those code pointers used by the new enemies, the super shotgun, and the new generic things (like the lights) not considered advancements? I think they are. The megasphere sure added a lot too the gameplay, but isn't much of an advancement. 

Boring technical crap is for nerds, if it doesn't have at least 2x the amount of weapons and enemies and a new engine that supports VR, it isn't a sequel! It's just an expansioooon paaaaaccckkk!!!

[Doomkid]

By the logic that adding a bunch of new enemies, a new weapon, textures, music, sound effects and linedef actions doesn’t make a game more advanced, I guess SMB3 really isn’t more advanced than SMB1..

 

(It obviously is more advanced, though. The idea that greatly expanding what the game can do is not making it “more advanced” is just obviously absurd on the face of it)

[7Mahonin]

It's far more advanced, but the 90s was the time when FPS games got more and more advanced practically each year. I remember being blown away by Doom, feeling as if at that moment, nothing could look much more advanced than that on my system. Then Duke 3D came out, then Quake, and so on, and so forth. People can argue about what game is better on a gameplay, story, design perspective, sure.. but the technological leaps seen are not up for debate.

 

One thing I want to mention about the "patrolling/idle guard" stuff people have brought up a few times here already is that this makes more sense in terms of Wolf 3D than it would for Doom. For Wolfenstein 3D, it is part of the leftover stealth elements, and also is part of the MUSE Wolfenstein games. In those two games, the nazis patrolled as well, and the SS could patrol through ALL the rooms, so there's times where they'll suddenly come through a door, shout "Was ist los?" and track you down. Wolf 3D's stealth elements, as well as a mine weapon, were cut from the game right before they began finishing up the shareware version, but the patrolling guards were left in. It adds a bit more realism to the fact you're fighting soldiers, soldiers that are in guard positions defending treasures, ammo, and other assets of the Reich. They aren't supposed to all stand in place, because that wouldn't feel as "real", and often these guards are used to catch you off guard. You may be picking your nose while in the elevator when suddenly the door opens and a guard spots you because he was patrolling towards the door.

 

Demons and undead humans aren't working for anyone but themselves, and if they are working for someone, they don't care if they make security rounds or not. They can stand and shift their weight all day long walking in place, because they aren't there to do anything else but kill you. Besides, the way patrolling worked in Wolf 3D would not have worked for Doom for what they wanted to accomplish. Doom had treasure items at one point like Wolf 3D, and they were cut fairly late during the shareware development. This was likely because the treasure and points didn't translate as well to the action of Doom, and treasure items are just more objects taking up space for maps where you could have more demons and decorations. Same thing applies to Wolf 3D with the patrolling guards. Each patrolling guard requires "path ways", and each path way takes up a slot in the total amount of objects/sprites you can have in your level.

 

Obviously, this limitation can mostly be bypassed outside of DOS, but this is likely part of the reason there weren't patrolling demons.

[Gez]

45 minutes ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Lol this isn't even true. Doom 2 added quite a few linedef actions. Off the top of my head: switches that require keys, fast doors, floor lower 512 units (used only once in game, I believe), fast lifts, etc. Not only that, it added more definitions for animated floors and walls. Slimfalls and Bloodfalls, as well as the brown sludge all weren't in Doom. 

 

The reason you don't notice these features is that The Ultimate Doom, released in 1995, added all of these to Doom, as well as the definitions needed for a fourth episode. 

Pretty much all of that stuff was here in Doom v1.666. Not in the maps and game data; but in the executable. Because Doom and Doom II actually run on the same executable, and you could play Doom II with your Doom 1 exe or vice-versa (minimum version being 1.666 for full Doom II support, of course).

[Solmyr]

@Dusty_Rhodes While Orb of Dilaaria is a fantastic mod for its time, it has a slow rather cumbersome start, the first level and half of the next one are melee oriented and melee in this mod kinda sucks, you have to move back and forth quickly to avoid getting bashed, once you move past those parts, the game gets much better. Take that in mind if you decide to give it a shot.

Other mods that are also pretty good; Spear: End of Destiny, Spear Resurrection 2011, Castle Totenkopf SDL edition, and Operation Eisenfaust Legacy.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Solmyr

[Murdoch]

44 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

By the logic that adding a bunch of new enemies, weapons, textures, music, sound effects and linedef actions doesn’t make a game more advanced, I guess SMB3 really isn’t more advanced than SMB1..

 

It depends on how one defines advanced. Personally, I would be more inclined to use the term to cover the technical capabilities of the game rather than the content. So yes, SMB1 and SMB3 represent more of a refinement than an advancement as it's still a 2D platformer with comparable gameplay.

 

Doom 1 to Doom 2 is definitely just a case of more content and no advancement or even refinement to the tech of significance. Wolf to Doom, Doom to Quake definitely advancement. Quake to Quake II would be more refinement than advancement of the underlying tech.

 

14 minutes ago, 7Mahonin said:

Demons and undead humans aren't working for anyone but themselves, and if they are working for someone, they don't care if they make security rounds or not.

 

But one could make a case that some of them could and would actively try to search out more prey. So it would not be so much a patrol routine but actively search the area in a less structured manner. So perhaps setting certain things which act as pointers, so a hunting enemy in the area could randomly navigate between those points unless alerted, perhaps even pausing at random.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Murdoch

[7Mahonin]

@Murdoch that is true. The feature could work quite well for Doom's setting, but I do believe the primary reason they weren't included was mainly due to how they were used in Wolf 3D. Each patrolling guard required markers to work, otherwise, they'd run into something and just keep walking against another sprite or wall. The dogs in Wolf 3D always have to be set up this way, as they were the only standard enemy without any standing frames (though they do exist in the source code). Those markers add up the total amount of objects you can use in a level, and for Doom, which has much higher enemy counts, even the most populated (guard wise) Wolf 3D map is still going to have less enemies than the most populated Doom map. This is why enemies like the Hitler "Ghost" were only used in 1 level. Their fireballs actually count as "objects" when in use, and if the map is already near the max allowed objects and if the 8 projectiles they fire causes the object count to go over that limit, the game crashes. So I think in Doom's case, it's likely they wanted to keep their resources focused on the action. I do agree though, it would've been neat to see a Cyberdemon patrolling around in the distance, or having the demons follow a path that leads them towards the start of the map, etc.

Edited March 10, 2022 by 7Mahonin

[dasho]

48 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

So yes, SMB1 and SMB3 represent more of a refinement than an advancement as it's still a 2D platformer with comparable gameplay.

 

This might be a better case if you were comparing, say, SMB3 and Super Mario World, but SMB3 had overworlds, items, minigames, flight, etc etc where SMB1 had nothing of the sort.

[Kor]

I'm gonna go with what everyone else is saying: definitely.  I remember trying to install Doom shareware on the family's 386 computer.  Wouldn't work at all (something about it needing a math coprocessor or something).  Wolf3d, on the other hand, worked fine on it.  Wasn't til we got a Pentium that Doom would actually work.  Little did I know I would become obsessed.  :)