Would you say Doom (1993) is much more advanced game than Wolf 3D (1992)?

[Technicolor]

2 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Lol this isn't even true. Doom 2 added quite a few linedef actions. Off the top of my head: switches that require keys, fast doors, floor lower 512 units (used only once in game, I believe), fast lifts, etc. Not only that, it added more definitions for animated floors and walls. Slimfalls and Bloodfalls, as well as the brown sludge all weren't in Doom. 

 

The reason you don't notice these features is that The Ultimate Doom, released in 1995, added all of these to Doom, as well as the definitions needed for a fourth episode. 

 

So Doom 2 actually added a lot of engine features, besides, are all those code pointers used by the new enemies, the super shotgun, and the new generic things (like the lights) not considered advancements? I think they are. The megasphere sure added a lot too the gameplay, but isn't much of an advancement. 

 

Before you argue "semantics", this really does matter because for the two years Doom was out, no IWAD or PWAD for it had this capability. Just like how Gibbon back ported MBF's Sky Transfer linedef actions to ReBoom. Regular old Boom doesn't support them.

 

Compare difference between Quake and Quake 2 with Doom and Doom 2.

 

Doom 2 is pretty much the same as Doom.

 

Doom's second and third episodes also offer more enemies and weapons and item. Does it mean the game is more advanced in 2nd and 3rd Episodes of Doom?

 

Same thing happens with Atomic Edition of Duke Nukem 3D. Its 4th Episode adds Enemies, Weapon.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Technicolor

[PsychEyeball]

I'd debate there are more notable differences between Doom and Doom 2 than there were for Quake and Quake 2. For Quake, it all boiled down to Quake 2 having a much more advanced 3D engine. But about any new gameplay features it had were cobbled straight from Hexen (Hub system, inventory system). 

 

But you're deliberately not acknowledging anyone's points so why bother continuing this conversation?

[Murdoch]

47 minutes ago, dasho said:

 

This might be a better case if you were comparing, say, SMB3 and Super Mario World, but SMB3 had overworlds, items, minigames, flight, etc etc where SMB1 had nothing of the sort.

 

Honestly, I barely played the Mario games and have not done so in years. Is not the underlying engine and tech still the same though?

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

49 minutes ago, Technicolor said:

Doom 2 is pretty much the same as Doom.

Yeah, that's why 99% of wads are for DOOM 2.

Edited March 10, 2022 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Kinsie]

47 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

Honestly, I barely played the Mario games and have not done so in years. Is not the underlying engine and tech still the same though?

Probably some minor bits and pieces, but all the mainline Mario games are typically pretty different technologically - Nintendo's modus-operandi up until relatively recently was to create a pile of reusable components like editor tools, art formats and UI toolkits, and use those to build game-specific engines that only occasionally get reused for ports, spinoffs or direct sequels like Super Mario Galaxy 2.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Technicolor said:

 

Compare difference between Quake and Quake 2 with Doom and Doom 2.

 

Doom 2 is pretty much the same as Doom.

 

Doom's second and third episodes also offer more enemies and weapons and item. Does it mean the game is more advanced in 2nd and 3rd Episodes of Doom?

 

Same thing happens with Atomic Edition of Duke Nukem 3D. Its 4th Episode adds Enemies, Weapon.

Lol

 

"It's different, but not to my standards, therefore it isn't."

 

Obviously the difference between Wolf3D and Doom and Doom and Quake is larger. You could argue Doom 2 refined what Doom had, but it's still advancements. All those codepointers and linedef actions are legitimate improvements and additions.

Also, the enemies and weapons are still in Doom, that's an observation on level design, not engine advancements. You said it yourself: Doom 2 added these things. The point still stands: Doom had a less advanced engine before Doom 2 was released. You can read up on the engine changes here, lots of cool stuff. I suppose the most advanced version that still runs in DOS is the iD Anthology Final Doom executable. Though, that could be seen as "cleaned up" or bug fixed, rather than advanced. This is really a silly argument.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Versions_of_Doom_and_Doom_II#v1.1

 

2 hours ago, Gez said:

Pretty much all of that stuff was here in Doom v1.666. Not in the maps and game data; but in the executable. Because Doom and Doom II actually run on the same executable, and you could play Doom II with your Doom 1 exe or vice-versa (minimum version being 1.666 for full Doom II support, of course).

Oh thanks for the correction, I was mistaken. I thought Doom 1 wasn't touched until 1.9, but this is good to know.

 

[Kor]

1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

 

Honestly, I barely played the Mario games and have not done so in years. Is not the underlying engine and tech still the same though?

I read somewhere that the SMB3 cartridge had a special chip in it that allowed for new features such as its hills.  Other than that I don't know how different the game engines of the SMB games are from each other.

[Murdoch]

31 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

Probably some minor bits and pieces, but all the mainline Mario games are typically pretty different technologically - Nintendo's modus-operandi up until relatively recently was to create a pile of reusable components like editor tools, art formats and UI toolkits, and use those to build game-specific engines that only occasionally get reused for ports, spinoffs or direct sequels like Super Mario Galaxy 2.

 

Ah. Neat.

 

8 minutes ago, Kor said:

I read somewhere that the SMB3 cartridge had a special chip in it that allowed for new features such as its hills.  Other than that I don't know how different the game engines of the SMB games are from each other.

 

Right, so I stand corrected, those games are an advancement. 

[msx2plus]

20 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

I think 100 post is a good threshold for that.

just need to respond to this specifically since it stuck out as absurd

 

this would kneecap a lot of new mappers, artists, musicians, etc. you'd just get people making meaningless replies in other threads to hit the threshold to finally be able to post their work... i've been on and moderated forums w/ this functionality and at a very low number (5, 10) it can kind of sometimes work, but on a place like doomworld, where a number of first posts are going to be their first map/wad/etc, it's goofball. it doesn't really do anything to solidify community involvement or anything like that either, it just makes for more frustration.

[Kinsie]

15 minutes ago, Kor said:

I read somewhere that the SMB3 cartridge had a special chip in it that allowed for new features such as its hills.  Other than that I don't know how different the game engines of the SMB games are from each other.

Many NES games include Memory Management Controller chips on the PCB to juggle the additional ROM data used for bigger games in and out of memory. In the middle and late era of the platform these chips started including extra functionality to give the aging hardware a hand. SMB3 uses MMC3, which added hardware support for split-screen scrolling. This is used to keep that nice HUD on screen while letting the rest of the screen scroll freely, along with a few other tricks like those levels which rise and sink out of an opaque layer of water.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Kinsie

[Zaxxon]

12 minutes ago, msx2plus said:

just need to respond to this specifically since it stuck out as absurd

 

this would kneecap a lot of new mappers, artists, musicians, etc. you'd just get people making meaningless replies in other threads to hit the threshold to finally be able to post their work...

 

Yes, that's a possibility, but there's a way to prevent spam too. I doubt there are a lot of newly registered users that want to upload maps on day one, and if they do, you usually get maps with 2 rooms and 10 monsters, in a topic with no screenshots. I don't know, it's just my point of view, i'm not complaining with how things are, let it be the way the powers that be want it to be.

[dasho]

I think you should change your thread title to "Is Doom II (1994) much more advanced than Doom (1993)", because you don't actually seem to care about your own original question and are fixated on the lack of a 'leap of progress' in that particular case.

[ReaperAA]

2 hours ago, PsychEyeball said:

I'd debate there are more notable differences between Doom and Doom 2 than there were for Quake and Quake 2. For Quake, it all boiled down to Quake 2 having a much more advanced 3D engine. But about any new gameplay features it had were cobbled straight from Hexen (Hub system, inventory system).

 

I am in the camp that Doom 2 is definitely more than an expansion pack, but I totally disagree that there are more notable differences between Doom and Doom 2 than there are in Quake and Quake 2. Apart from engine improvements like having colored dynamic lights and animation interpolation, Quake 2 also has completely different graphic, enemies and even weapons are kind of different (Quake 2 has Railgun and BFG that Quake 1 doesn't).

[Zaxxon]

Let's not forget that beautiful skybox in Quake 2 that is 1000 times better than the flat cloudy ceiling you have for a sky in Quake 1. Also, the pain animations, the body wounds on enemies that appear when you shoot them, the ability to knock down enemies (you can't do that in Q1, right?), levels consisting of multiple sublevels that you can go back and forth to, and complete mission objectives... Oh yeah, let's not forget that you have actual objectives, voice acting, a story and a well-defined antagonist this time. Much better than having to look for colored keys in every single map, which by 1997 was already a tired trope. What about the smoother animations in Quake 2, remember how janky the movement of the enemies is in Quake 1? There was no Qaukespasm back then to save the day.

 

Quake 2 is so different that it's basically a standalone game, and not just because of the different setting and story departure. Can you say that about Doom 2? And i ask this as someone who also disagrees that Doom 2 is just an expansion for Doom 1. The only reason Doom 2 looks similar is because the Doom engine was still the best engine in 1994, nothing could challenge it until Duke Nukem 3D. id Software did what they had to do to deliver a sequel quickly, and solidify their dominance in the yet non-existing FPS genre. Doom 2 delivers new enemies, new weapon, new textures, fights in larger scale and numbers... more than enough to be a good sequel in 1994, when there was nothing else that could challenge it. The only complaint i have is the rushed design in some levels... they should've put more bodies to work on the game, and not have one guy design 20 maps in less than 10 months.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Zaxxon

[Nine Inch Heels]

17 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Doom 2 is same as Doom 1. It is not any more advanceded than Doom 1.

 

Extre enemies, item, weapon is added to the game. That is it.

This is incorrect...

 

From a technical perspective, doom2 contains code (as well as codepointers) that didn't even exist in doom(1), which has opened up more options to modify the game in ways that would be impossible to make happen in doom(1). That alone means doom2 is more advanced, even if it isn't as readily apparent as a difference between generations of games would be.

 

So, for someone who wants to talk about "how advanced" something is, you aren't taking a close enough look at what the things that were added to the game actually entail, and what the ramifications of those "extras" are...

 

...Not to mention that, just based on what's "in plain sight", doom2 would still be more advanced than doom(1) solely by virtue of the huge gaping holes doom(1) has in its roster, which doom2 managed to fill to a pretty significant degree. These "extra enemies" that you think make no difference whatsoever were a genuinely large step towards a more modern FPS experience prior to the era of polygon-based-murder (quake etc). Yes, doom(1) laid the foundation for doom2, but doom2 laid the foundation for pretty much every other FPS that would come after...

 

So, you wanna talk about how advanced stuff is? I suggest you take a look at what's under the hood instead of limiting yourself and the threads you create to estimations based solely on how different something looks, because looks can be deceiving, and a cursory glance doesn't really teach anyone anything...

[PsychEyeball]

1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I am in the camp that Doom 2 is definitely more than an expansion pack, but I totally disagree that there are more notable differences between Doom and Doom 2 than there are in Quake and Quake 2. Apart from engine improvements like having colored dynamic lights and animation interpolation, Quake 2 also has completely different graphic, enemies and even weapons are kind of different (Quake 2 has Railgun and BFG that Quake 1 doesn't).

Ok, bad exemple I guess. Personally I heavily disliked Quake 2 because the additions weren't exactly super striking and were already mostly seen in other games, but hey.

[Edward850]

7 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Compare difference between Quake and Quake 2 with Doom and Doom 2.

What do you consider as differences? Because between Quake 1 & 2, the only real substantial difference (the netcode) was already present and in fact originated from the Quake1 client QuakeWorld.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Edward850

[Redneckerz]

Seems like OP isnt actually interested in arguing his original point but likes to disagree with others.

 

4 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Compare difference between Quake and Quake 2 with Doom and Doom 2.

Aren't the same games. At all.

4 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Doom 2 is pretty much the same as Doom.

Pretty much, but also not quite. I would explain, but i've found you do not respond to explanations so you will get a vague remark instead.

4 hours ago, Technicolor said:

 

 

4 hours ago, PsychEyeball said:

But you're deliberately not acknowledging anyone's points so why bother continuing this conversation?

Yeah its time this door gets closed.

 

I don't understand why new users do this, every time.

4 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Yeah, that's why 99% of wads are for DOOM 2.

This really is a burn.

2 hours ago, msx2plus said:

It doesn't really do anything to solidify community involvement or anything like that either, it just makes for more frustration.

Devil's Advocate: the amount of threads made by new users and the quality of them also do not solidify community involvement.

 

In fact i know that long standing members have dropped in activity because of it.

 

These threads continue to get made because they are harmless in the eyes of DW. Whether you agree with that or not, but that's the stance.

[ReaperAA]

10 minutes ago, PsychEyeball said:

Personally I heavily disliked Quake 2 because the additions weren't exactly super striking and were already mostly seen in other games, but hey.

 

To be fair, other than the client/server mp, almost all of Quake 1's additions were also already present in other games including even the 3D-ness (see Descent and Terminator: Future Shock)

[Optimus]

Definitely, I find wolfenstein3d too boring (and never even finished it) even when trying to create a map, because there is no variety in heights, angled walls, various line triggers and numerous other stuff. Doom was a huge step since Wolfenstein 3D. Quake was less of a leap (besides the polygon engine and real mouse look) from Doom.

[CoolerDoomeR]

Yes i think, the Doom Engine is much more advanced that Wolfenstein 3D.

[TuomasGaming]

Obviously. Would you compare Castle Wolfenstein and DOOM Eternal too?

[yakfak]

sometimes i wish doom hadn't dropped the points items? just wanna surf around weird levels collecting stuff, dodging revenants and hearing pc speaker item grab jingles. also you can't drink from blood puddles, unnecessary downgrade >:)