What’s the last thing you have done (DOOM RELATED) that has made you feel a bit cheap?

[ImproversGaming]

OK, so I have been working to improve my Doom skills and have been taking the standard path (Fava Beans, Base Ganymede, Sigil) and am now finishing Moonblood, where I hit E6M3 - Moonblood Ritual Site. There is an outside arena late in the map (one of the longest maps with the highest enemy count) where there are three cyberdemons that teleport in (two on timers). It is very punishing to die at this stage as it takes me ~30mins to get there and I just could not hit this head on.

 

Instead, I undertook a defensive retreat manoeuvre, escaped the area and took the three of them down through windows/doors from outside the arena. I could hit them but they could not hit me. This is not an unreasonable strategy but I could not help but feel it was a bit cheap, i.e., not something I would have resorted to if my skills were better – though I am ok with this for now (I am improving after all).

 

What’s the last thing you have done (DOOM RELATED) that has made you feel a bit cheap?

 

Note: I did try and practice the fight to complete it with less cowardice but just did not have the capability. I intend to come back and restore my dignity in the future when my skills have improved!

Edited March 10, 2022 by ImproversGaming
Changed "Not that this is not a reasonable strategy but" to "This is not an unreasonable strategy but"

[Btyb88]

Sunder, map 19. I can't remember the exact fight but there's a part that you can just sneak around everyone and press a switch from above/behind then exit without fighting. I eventually went back to play the one fight but felt bad about it.

[PasokonDeacon]

I've never been more conscious about door-camping/-fighting than ever. Going through Kama Sutra without charging in and out of crowds (half the time anyway since KS gives you some room to strafe and strategize), or casually replaying BTSX Ex while avoiding risks/open-area aggression like I've done for years now...

 

Still, I've gotten better at managing tough enemy comps out in the open, and I mainly door abuse if/when a map's resources aren't enough for me to comfortably survive an encounter and keep adequate pressure with what weapons I have. My real weakness is not knowing to abuse archie sight-line damage mitigation with even minimum size walls. Maybe it's more that I don't trust the floor heights of nearby wall sectors when I'm stuck in the open with arch-fire upon me, but I ought to improve at quickly reacting to that situation appropriately.

[Nefelibeta]

I basically mid-save whenever possible when I try to playtest my maps.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Nefelibeta

[Womp the Cat]

Couldn't beat the last fight in Rush map07 so just idclev'd to 8. My health on my nearest save was below par, for the fight which has 0 health pickups. couldn't find a yt playthrough that wasn't continuous and thus could not find a strategy. I'll try it again soon. 

[Optimus]

Very recently I was playing DBP 45: Vrack Botanicals and there was MAP02, the kind of map where you have to select one of two paths (one gives you the plasma gun, the other the rocket launcher). At first I was confused because I couldn't get a secret on one path and thought you might trigger it from the other side. So I cheated and IDCLIP through the other closed path. Then I realized the intention of the creator was to only chose one of the two paths. But since I cheated and don't like to not explore everything, I played through it by idclipping and getting everything. Then felt bad during the later playthrough :P

[RagnarRandom]

buddha2 every time i play. i suck, and i don't care who knows it. cheap doesn't even begin to convey it. i am a unrepentant cheater. i still have fun playing, so that is all that matters to me.

[Major Arlene]

Can we please, please stop referring to using strats other than killing everything head-on (and, god forbid, using saves, a feature literally built into the game) as "cheap"? a strat is a strat is a strat and all of them are valid, especially the one OP describes- I do it all the time in maps that allow it. Cover is put in maps often for a reason, whether that be walls, doors, etc. Self-preservation is not a cheap strat.

[ImproversGaming]

I agree Major Arlene. Apologies. I have noticed an honest mistake in my post where I meant to say it is "not an unreasonable strategy" but I did use the word cheap, sorry. It was just how it felt to me and I did not want to infer it should feel that way for anyone else - maybe there was a better word.

 

Bottom line is that I agree with RagnarRandom, play it how you enjoy playing it, whatever that is to you!

 

17 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

Can we please, please stop referring to using strats other than killing everything head-on (and, god forbid, using saves, a feature literally built into the game) as "cheap"? a strat is a strat is a strat and all of them are valid, especially the one OP describes- I do it all the time in maps that allow it. Cover is put in maps often for a reason, whether that be walls, doors, etc. Self-preservation is not a cheap strat.

[Major Arlene]

5 minutes ago, ImproversGaming said:

I agree Major Arlene. Apologies. I have noticed an honest mistake in my post where I meant to say it is "not an unreasonable strategy" but I did use the word cheap, sorry. It was just how it felt to me and I did not want to infer it should feel that way for anyone else - maybe there was a better word.

 

Bottom line is that I agree with RagnarRandom, play it how you enjoy playing it, whatever that is to you!

 

Perfectly alright fam- I've just been seeing a pattern of these types of comments/assertions that using defensive instead of offensive strategies is "frowned upon" when that should never be the case. I'd understand if you'd mountain-goated to some area of the map that should have been inaccessible, but just normally using cover isn't the case (which it sounds like you were).

[Stabbey]

It didn't make me feel cheap when building and testing it, but playtesters for one of my levels did not like two solid wall of ordinary bricks later becoming fake walls with enemies facing away waiting behind to ambush the player when they inevitably shot the bait monster which had appeared. These fake walls were positioned to pincer a player who would have been coming up from the expected path. So I changed that slightly to become a fast-lowering floor with monsters facing forward instead of a fake-wall surprise. It can still pincer the player though.

 

If you want a playing experience, I put on god mode for Scythe map 28, the one where you have 30 seconds to exit or you die. Except I didn't feel cheap for doing that, since that's about 15 seconds shorter than my best time.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Stabbey

[Pechudin]

If a map allows me to tickle Cyberdemon's hooves with a Chaingun with no danger, or allows me to trigger a trap and escape, then by God I will do it. Sometimes those strategies require a bit of thought as well.

[Shepardus]

7 hours ago, Womp the Cat said:

Couldn't beat the last fight in Rush map07 so just idclev'd to 8. My health on my nearest save was below par, for the fight which has 0 health pickups. couldn't find a yt playthrough that wasn't continuous and thus could not find a strategy. I'll try it again soon. 

DSDA's got you covered:

Spoiler

 

And in case you wanted to see it done Tyson (pistol and melee only):

Spoiler

 

or pacifist:

Spoiler

 

Here's a different max playthrough from pistol start:

Spoiler

 

 

[ImproversGaming]

Damn @Shepardus, those are just crazy and there is so much skill involved. So basically we just need to do what they did, ha.

The pacifist run is interesting - I thought it was 23minutes long, but that was 23seconds - really interesting to watch.

Thanks for sharing.

[TimeOfDeath666]

For me, I've been seriously considering making some easy low-difficulty maps now that I don't use a mouse anymore and I feel cheap, dirty, and embarrassed.

 

3 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

Can we please, please stop referring to using strats other than killing everything head-on (and, god forbid, using saves, a feature literally built into the game) as "cheap"? a strat is a strat is a strat and all of them are valid, especially the one OP describes- I do it all the time in maps that allow it. Cover is put in maps often for a reason, whether that be walls, doors, etc. Self-preservation is not a cheap strat.

The OP is working on improving their skills and for that you have to go on the offensive.

[Major Arlene]

4 minutes ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

The OP is working on improving their skills and for that you have to go on the offensive.

Offensive is pretty general- improving skill isn't just brute-forcing fights, it's learning how to use the space provided, where you can get kills in, etc. I'm obviously no expert at the game but getting good at Doom, especially for custom levels, isn't just "shoot more and faster".

[thiccyosh]

I once played Going Down's map11, Vivisection, and I killed the Cyberdemon by making himself get stuck on the Door tracks while shooting him with the SSG and rocket launcher. It wasn't fun (but funny!) and was dirt cheap.

[Zaxxon]

10 minutes ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

The OP is working on improving their skills and for that you have to go on the offensive.

 

"Working on improving his skills" - Unless we talk about challenge running or speedrunning, i don't understand what you mean. Is Doom a job now? A competition? A sport? Is there a magical price for going on the offensive to improve your skills? I'm starting to think that some people are terribly misled by this community to think that there's only one right way to play this game, a gold standard of sorts that everyone should "work hard" to achieve, otherwise they can't call themselves Doom fans. 

[Doom-X-Machina]

Skipping E2M2: Containment Area everytime I play because I just... hate... that... fucking... map...

 

[DeathWalkerGT]

Door camping (When low on health)

[RHhe82]

Cheap? I'll give you cheap. I was making this map, a decent map for a community project, and the map was close to being done and me being done with it. Something was missing though, I needed one final area. So I did the unspeakable, cheapest trick in the book: I copied a room - or at least a significant part of it - from a pre-existing IWAD level. Naturally I made modifications to it, it only needed to resemble the original very much, I could have made it myself. But I just copied it and went on from there.

 

Now, I've been explaining black to white ever since. It's only a sector, handful of linedefs, I'm only cutting a corner to make one small area that is supposed to be a reference to the place I lifted it from, I don't think I've committed a crime or plagiarized anything, but... I feel a small bit guilty. It does appear a bit cheap. I should have made it myself. I could have memorized the exact layout (it's not complex) and linedef lengths and drew it myself, and it wouldn't bother me a bit.

[BGreener]

@RHhe82 If the Casali’s can do it for Go 2 It and Sandy Pete can do it for E3M9 I’d say you’re golden!

 

I think the “cheapest” thing I’ve had to do lately was revisiting Alien Vendetta, making it to map 14 and funneling those demons in the sludge pool with that elevator. I ain’t runnin’ down there.

 

Spoiler

Also made me go “you know…maybe I don’t have to pistol start every map…!”

 

[galileo31dos01]

It wasn't my fight, I just saw a window open (not a butthole pun), nudged him into a gap and went for it

 

 

The whatever distracted him before didn't even say thanks :(

[DeathWalkerGT]

You couldn't resist it huh?

[ImproversGaming]

Loving the responses, thanks all.

 

@RHhe82 nice post. I kind of recognise aspects of that mentality - I sometimes dwell on a little detail that won't go away (particularly if it is something that only I would know and am bothered by). Not that you need my stamp but it all sounds good to me!

 

@Doom-X-Machina I feel that pain to - for me it can be a chore - very mazey and I struggled for ammo, but I enjoyed it more when just gave up and started chasing around and punching stuff.

 

Lots of moves mentioned that are just great approaches as well, like @BGrieber keeping their boots clean (gotta respect that) or @galileo31dos01 and @thiccyosh confusing the Cyberdemons - that is just brilliant! Also @DeathWalkerGT, door camping (on any health) is a favoured strategy of mine so all is good!

 

Good stuff!

[DeathWalkerGT]

4 minutes ago, ImproversGaming said:

Also @DeathWalkerGT, door camping (on any health) is a favoured strategy of mine so all is good!

4 minutes ago, ImproversGaming said:

 

Say it to my head that gets me going berserk on the demons and getting my self into trouble.

Edited March 10, 2022 by DeathWalkerGT
Added a quote when it did not even exist...

[Btyb88]

I think the important thing here is to remember this is all subjective. What one player finds "cheap" another player may find fun. As long as no one is putting others down for the way they personally play, then we are all good.

[Jaccident]

I looked up a zero master speedrun to skip a fight in sunder. I felt so cheap I went back and redid it (although the strategy I used was influenced greatly by the speedrun).

[Zulk RS]

Almost everything I do is "cheap" but it doesn't make me feel cheap because I very much am happy with cheese strats. Some of my go-to cheese strats are:

 

• Using Freelook, a chaingun and excessive amount of bullets (Play continuous so usually I have extra ammo) to snipe big monsters from so far away that they look like pixels on the screen
• Save-scumming
• Door Camping
• Peeking in and out of a window or door to cause infight parties.
• Using Hitscan weapons to kill enemies behind bars or through windows with not fear of getting counter-attacked.
• (When playing with mods that have these kinds of weapons) using stuff like Napalm and Grenades to shoot enemies inside the pop-up traps or down a long fall.

[ImproversGaming]

Nice distinction. All are good strategies so long as it is fun (as was well said by @Btyb88). I have never tried freelook, think I need to broaden my horizons! Nice list.

 

1 minute ago, Zulk RS said:

Almost everything I do is "cheap" but it doesn't make me feel cheap because I very much am happy with cheese strats. Some of my go-to cheese strats are:

 

• Using Freelook, a chaingun and excessive amount of bullets (Play continuous so usually I have extra ammo) to snipe big monsters from so far away that they look like pixels on the screen
• Save-scumming
• Door Camping
• Peeking in and out of a window or door to cause infight parties.
• Using Hitscan weapons to kill enemies behind bars or through windows with not fear of getting counter-attacked.
• (When playing with mods that have these kinds of weapons) using stuff like Napalm and Grenades to shoot enemies inside the pop-up traps or down a long fall.