I don't think Darth Vader is redeemable Just because he killed Palpatine.

[Dubbag]

I always thought Anakin was a creep. A piece shit psycho and a manchild. His turn to the darkside should not have been a surprise to anyone for the council feared it all along. I'm sorry but after becoming vader and killing hundreds of jedi and all those children and strangling his pregnant wife and terrorizing the galaxy for 2 decades with "Space Putin", it's like "Good you finally woke the fuck up and killed sidious you stupid idiot, you want a cookie vader? Good for you you did the right thing for once in your pathetic waste of a life, all those kids and jedi are still dead by the way so piss off"

Edited March 13, 2022 by Dubbag

[Zaxxon]

While i like the idea of the prequels and the story (the premise) they tried to tell, i hated the execution. I hate the writing, the direction, the acting and the cast (except Ewan McGregor). I saw The Phantom Menace when it debuted in theaters, and even though i was only twelve at the time, i immediately knew there was something off about the movie. Of course i grew up in the 90's, with the Original Trilogy which we had on VHS. So i agree with you, no other character is more ruined by the prequels than Vader is. Of course, now the prequels pale in comparisan to the utter devastation of the franchise caused by Disney.

 

Remove the prequels and sequels (for me they're both non-canon) from the equation and OT Vader is 100% redeemable, and that's because the OT was well written, without any prequels and sequels in mind.

[Murdoch]

58 minutes ago, Zaxxon said:

Remove the prequels and sequels (for me they're both non-canon) from the equation and OT Vader is 100% redeemable, and that's because the OT was well written, without any prequels and sequels in mind.

 

Uh... i am not a massive star wars fan so i am likely remembering incorrectly but wasn't he complicit in atomising a planet?

[smeghammer]

Don't forget that George Lucas always planned for there to be a Vader origin story - "A New Hope" is episode IV after all... 

• https://www.looper.com/179186/the-real-reason-george-lucas-started-star-wars-with-episode-4/#:~:text=George Lucas always meant for,not be the true first&text=With the background in place,films turn into a success.
• https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/star-wars-book-reveals-george-lucas-original-plan-anakin-skywalkers-origins/

I totally agree that the actual execution of the prequel trilogy was - er - cringy? Really odd decisions made for it (don't get me started on fucking JarJar Binks!) and Hayden Christiensen was COMPLETEY wrong. The podrace was cool though.

 

In terms of the OP... There's a difference between Vader/Anakin being redeemed and his realising his guilt I think. Absolutely, as a newly enlightened Jedi(?) Anakin would likely realise this and act accordingly (make reparations, imprison himself, commit suicide?) but that would make or a very dark ending to Episode VI. 

 

Spoiler

 

For those of you old enough, the original end of ep VI was an old guy actor as the spirit of Anakin, rater than the spirit of Hayden Christiansen.

 

 

But yes, I agree that there is a mismatch between the happy-clappy end of RotJ and Vader's earlier actions. If George Lucas always had it in his head that Vader really was an evil fucker (even if he was influenced by Sidious), the end does not address this.

 

NOTE: I have not seen episodes VII to IX, so I can't comment on anything in these.

[smeghammer]

21 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

Uh... i am not a massive star wars fan so i am likely remembering incorrectly but wasn't he complicit in atomising a planet?

Yes. More than one. First with the rebel base stronghold in 'Rogue One' (which is an excellent film BTW), then Dantooene ('cos Leia lied :-)) in ANH, then nearly Endor moon in RotJ.

[Murdoch]

1 minute ago, smeghammer said:

Yes. More than one. First with the rebel base stronghold in 'Rogue One' (which is an excellent film BTW), then Dantooene ('cos Leia lied :-)) in ANH, then nearly Endor moon in RotJ.

 

So even if one considers prequels and sequels non-canon, he still has the blood of potentially billions on his hands including more than a few children. That said, his final act also possibly saved as much if not more. But was he thinking of that or only his son?

[Zaxxon]

35 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

Uh... i am not a massive star wars fan so i am likely remembering incorrectly but wasn't he complicit in atomising a planet?

 

12 minutes ago, smeghammer said:

Yes. More than one. First with the rebel base stronghold in 'Rogue One' (which is an excellent film BTW), then Dantooene ('cos Leia lied :-)) in ANH, then nearly Endor moon in RotJ.

 

Both were Tarkin's orders, who by the way was a suprerior to Vader.

 

PS: You also seem to forget that little thing called "The Dark Side" which consumes the mind of the ones who follow its path. Respect the mythos of the SW universe, and stop judging the movies from the point of view of real life morals.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Zaxxon

[7Mahonin]

The whole point of the redemption is that when Anakin turned to the dark side (which he thought doing so would save Padme, but the emperor was full of shit and was essentially luring him to the dark side to help destroy the Jedi), he died. The dark side of the force corrupted him and he was now Darth Vader. He was Darth Vader the very moment he helped kill Windu. That very moment is what the emperor was waiting for.

 

Then, when Luke confronts him as Darth Vader in return of the Jedi, as he sees his son being killed by the emperor, Anakin returns to save his son, and Darth Vader then dies with him. It’s meant to be more of a symbolic redemption. Anakin returning to the light does not take away the massive impact he made to the galaxy while he was known as Darth Vader, but the empire has fallen, the emperor is dead. Listen carefully as Darth Vader is unmasked and you can hear blasters- storm troopers offing themselves even. The sequel trilogy decided to shit on this and make it entirely meaningless, the empire just got a facelift and the emperor is suddenly fully operational. Even extended universe stuff that took place after ROTJ made more sense than what they decided to go with. 
 

edit: also, when you actually pay attention, his dreams of padme were quite similar to what he saw when Luke was on the ground begging for help. He thought turning to the dark side would save Padme. He was fooled and became the emperor’s pawn. When he saw Luke, his own son, in that same sort of situation as his dreams, he knew that the true Anakin, the light side of the force, could save his son. So I’d say redemption was the last thing on his mind. He woke up from the dark side’s spell and sacrificed himself for his son. That redeems him in Luke’s eyes. That’s why Anakin says “you were right. tell your sister you were right.”  Luke always believed there was still a chance to bring his father back to the light. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by 7Mahonin

[Liberation]

I didn't really see Vader's death as a redemption thing, more father/son/love prevails sort of thing.

 

And tbh, during the original trilogy Vader probably killed more Imperials than anyone else, Rogue 1 was the only time we saw him being a bad ass. 

The death star was under command of Tarkin, so Vader kinda gets off the hook for that one.

[Zaxxon]

40 minutes ago, smeghammer said:

Don't forget that George Lucas always planned for there to be a Vader origin story - "A New Hope" is episode IV after all... 

• https://www.looper.com/179186/the-real-reason-george-lucas-started-star-wars-with-episode-4/#:~:text=George Lucas always meant for,not be the true first&text=With the background in place,films turn into a success.
• https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/star-wars-book-reveals-george-lucas-original-plan-anakin-skywalkers-origins/

 

He says he always planned it, but is it actually true? I'm not so sure. A New Hope wasn't Episode 4 at the time of its release... it wasn't even called A New Hope, it was called Star Wars. Then came, as you well know, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The movies became episodes 4,5 and 6 in the 90's, when Lucas re-released them with the shitty special editions, while he was already working on the pre-production of the prequels. So if i am to guess, he's not entirely truthful as to when exactly the origin story came to life. He might've taught about it after Empire Strikes Back, but i'm sure nothing was yet written at the time. Not to mention that he had his incredible (then) wife, and a number of talented people to help him save the OT from his terrible writing... because he was always a terrible writer and producer. I strongly suggest you watch the following video... it's amazing how much the magic of post-production can do for a film.

 

Spoiler

 

 

And here's the original title crawl from 1977. As you can see, there is no Episode 4 or A New Hope

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Zaxxon

[smeghammer]

Fair point. I don't remember the last time I saw the original cut of SW. I saw it on it's release, but then, I was 8, so don't remember such detail... 

 

It could well all be sneaky retcon shit.

Edited March 11, 2022 by smeghammer
typo

[ImproversGaming]

I once had a zombieman that somehow killed two a shotgunners for me. I did not forgive them and they died shortly afterwards.

I like to think that they died a better person, with kindness in their hearth in those last fleeting moments, but suspect they would have turned on me. I guess I will never know...

Similarly difficult to imagine forgiving Vader for a last good deed, too little too late after a lifetime of evil.

[Dubbag]

I was born in 1992 and saw episode 1 in 1st grade, that shit changed my life. I LOVED it. I didn't much care for Episode 2 except or the fact that it introduced my second favorite character Dukoo. 3 is where it's at I ADORE that movie, it added so much to my dude Palpatine.. The OT is incredible and Empire is my favorite Starwars movie I grew up with those as well. I HATE the sequels. Those are non-canon to me. IMO the story ends after ROTJ. So to me it feels that what he did was inexcusable and selfish even if it was to save someone he loved, it wasn't worth it.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Dubbag

[Doom64hunter]

The act of becoming a force ghost shouldn't be seen as a heavenly redemption, in the sense of "god judging you on your sins".

 

Rather, the prequels state that in order to become a force ghost, your final moments and actions need to be guided by compassion, not hatred. Anakin certainly fulfilled that requirement, despite what he did as Darth Vader.

[Gez]

4 hours ago, smeghammer said:

Yes. More than one. First with the rebel base stronghold in 'Rogue One' (which is an excellent film BTW), then Dantooene ('cos Leia lied :-)) in ANH, then nearly Endor moon in RotJ.

When ROTJ was scripted and filmed, there was no Rogue One. (Also it's Alderaan, not Dantooine, that gets blown up in ANH, and it's Tarkin's order, not DV's.)

 

3 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

He says he always planned it, but is it actually true? I'm not so sure. A New Hope wasn't Episode 4 at the time of its release... it wasn't even called A New Hope, it was called Star Wars. Then came, as you well know, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The movies became episodes 4,5 and 6 in the 90's, when Lucas re-released them with the shitty special editions, while he was already working on the pre-production of the prequels.

ANH was originally released as just "Star Wars" when they weren't yet sure if it'd be a commercial success or not. The title retcon predates the remastered special editions, it was done in 1981 after the release of Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back in 1980; which did display this full title in its opening credits from the start.

 

I know, I had some VHS tapes of the whole trilogy that I bought when they were sold with a "last chance before revised special edition" promotion a year before Lucas unleashed Star Wars Episode 4: Greedo Shot First.

[hybridial]

The Star Wars story falls apart once you get to the prequels, because they are too much of a mess. And honestly all the extended universe stuff doesn't help, some of it is very good in a vacuum but the world building with Star Wars is chaotic and it never felt cohesive. The original movies work... just if you don't question too many things. 

 

And Disney come along and manage to make things so much worse. Talk about Darth Vader's redemption, how about Mini-Vader Ben Solo? Dear god it's all so fucked. 

[Zaxxon]

21 minutes ago, Gez said:

ANH was originally released as just "Star Wars" when they weren't yet sure if it'd be a commercial success or not. The title retcon predates the remastered special editions, it was done in 1981 after the release of Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back in 1980; which did display this full title in its opening credits from the start.

 

I know, I had some VHS tapes of the whole trilogy that I bought when they were sold with a "last chance before revised special edition" promotion a year before Lucas unleashed Star Wars Episode 4: Greedo Shot First.

 

Yeah, i am wrong here, there is no question about it. I am misinformed and under the impression that Lucas came up with the six episode concept much later. I swear i've watched a documentary that explained his original vision for SW in the 1970's, but that vision was vastly different than what ends up in the movies, including the prequels. It also must have been very weird for moviegoers in 1980 to go see the sequel to Star Wars, titled Star Wars: Episode 5.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Zaxxon

[Rudolph]

I guess it depends which Vader you are talking about: George Lucas' Darth Vader or Auralnauts' Darth Vader? :P

 

19 minutes ago, hybridial said:

how about Mini-Vader Ben Solo?

Kylo Ren was a good idea, actually. After all, real life has shown us that there are too many angry young men out there worshipping mass-murdering tyrants... Unfortunately, like with most things about the Sequels, they just did not know what to do with these ideas.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Rudolph

[hybridial]

9 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Kylo Ren was a good idea, actually.

 

In very broad strokes, when you get to specifics it's awful and Adam Driver is breaking his back trying to sell some of the worst writing in film history. That shows he is going to be seen in the long run as a great actor but it won't be because of these movies, this is more a test of how bulletproof he is against awful material. 

 

The one thing we sure don't get to see is an exploration of what makes someone believe in the kind of dogma the Sith and the Imperials practiced. Disney made all of that so blunt and crude. We do have to reckon with the fact that there is a reason these things happen, and we need at least some base understanding of that. Lucas tried... he tried to demonstrate how Palpatine rose to power. 

 

That's really the only positive I'll say about the prequels, he tried. Disney does not know the meaning of the word. 

[Rudolph]

For those who wondered what I meant by Auralnauts' Darth Vader:

 

 

[hybridial]

5 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

Both were Tarkin's orders, who by the way was a suprerior to Vader.

 

PS: You also seem to forget that little thing called "The Dark Side" which consumes the mind of the ones who follow its path. Respect the mythos of the SW universe, and stop judging the movies from the point of view of real life morals.

 

I feel like statements like this are why I feel Star Wars is overrated as a story in itself :P 

Edited March 11, 2022 by hybridial
Added italicised text to clarify what I meant

[smeghammer]

55 minutes ago, hybridial said:

And Disney come along and manage to make things so much worse.

This.

 

This is the biggest problem AFAIAC. Regardless of what GL original vision was. Disney acquired the franchise to make as much money as possible. Some of the Disney+ stuff might be OK - I have heard good things about the Boba Fett stuff - but I must admit, my love of original Star Wars was hugely tarnished when I found out that GL was selling out to the Dark Side...

 

Despite all the inconsistencies, even without the other films, the original trilogy for me IS Star Wars.

 

1 hour ago, Gez said:

Also it's Alderaan, not Dantooine, that gets blown up in ANH, and it's Tarkin's order, not DV's.

 

Yeah, my mistake. That was Leia's answer, but Tarkin wanted a more public demonstration IIRC?

 

And the whole thing with Governor Tarkin is one of those inconsistencies I think - in TESB and RotJ, Darth Vader seems basically in charge of the Empire forces, whereas in ANH, he is not. There are some interesting discussions to be found about Vader vs Tarkin and rank:
 

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+grand+moff+tarkin+higher+rank+than+Darth+Vader

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rudolph]

15 minutes ago, hybridial said:

I feel like statements like this are why I feel Star Wars is overrated as a story in itself :P 

I do not think the problem here is Star Wars' story being overrated so much as people relying on the "Thermian Argument":

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Rudolph

[hybridial]

30 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I do not think the problem here is Star Wars' story being overrated so much as people relying on the "Thermian Argument"

 

If you mean using a very poorly explained and vague abstract concept in the fiction to excuse questionable writing, I would agree. And whilst I know there's a lot of outside work that fleshes it out, these are things that shouldn't have been left out in the original text. It's not really ever a good writing or worldbuilding thing to do to do that work after the fact, when it comes to something so clearly fundamental to the original work. 

 

I think the most important thing about writing anything is intent, to me the most important thing a writer should always strive for is to be clear in intent where it matters (but it is art and ambiguity is also often important, but this also needs to be clearly intended to be that way). 

 

I myself don't rate Star Wars even when it works that highly as story because it's nebulous on too many things and because in the abstract things its also too basic. Lucas did have a fairly clear idea about dichotomy which is interesting but it's pretty much the only thing treated with any importance in Star Wars' storytelling and its crude, I feel. The original movies I think succeeded on the effects and quality acting and editing of the story scenes but I will always be a bit nonplussed by people still treating it like its the most amazing thing ever. I never particularly found it to be even when I was young and seeing them the first time. 

 

I'd already read much better stories, I really did a lot of that when I was very young, and I think that's the reason I felt that way. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by hybridial

[Rudolph]

Eh. It seems that whenever something or someone gets popular, people tend to become much more critical of it.

 

In any case, I would argue that Star Wars has an alright story, but its execution is highly inconsistent. As far as I am concerned, the Sequels' main problem is that Disney put JJ Abrams in charge. The guy is brilliant at building hype through viral marketing, but not so much at delivering. All we got out of his reboot of the Star Trek franchise is three more hackneyed remakes of The Wrath of Khan - as if that movie had not been remade to death already - and the third one ended up underperforming so much that a fourth movie now seems uncertain.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Rudolph

[hybridial]

9 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Eh. It seems that whenever something or someone gets popular, people tend to become much more critical of it.

 

That's also fair, it's popular, a lot of people really like it, I find it to be overexposed and so I intentionally kind of am more critical of it than I would be otherwise, I can admit that. It's not that it's terrible it's that it became annoying when it became omnipresent, and I think to be fair anything would be that way under the same circumstances for me.

 

JJ Abrams is the worst kind of hack I've ever seen, his infamous declaration of what a story is is so wide off the mark its no wonder he poisons everything he touches. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by hybridial

[Rudolph]

4 minutes ago, hybridial said:

JJ Abrams is the worst kind of hack I've ever seen, his infamous declaration of what a story is so wide off the mark its no wonder he poisons everything he touches. 

I am not familiar with that one. What did he say?

[hybridial]

1 minute ago, Rudolph said:

I am not familiar with that one. What did he say?

 

 

[Rudolph]

Well, he is not necessarily wrong. Things rarely go according to plan after all, George Lucas himself can attest. Have you read the comic book adaptation for The Star Wars? While there are recognizable characters and moments from the movies we now know, it is ultimately a very different story than we ended up getting. Heck, in many ways, you could argue that The Phantom Menace is more faithful to George Lucas' original version than A New Hope!

 

I used to hate JJ Abrams, but while I still dislike many of his creative decisions, I now cannot deny that the guy is quite talented. He sure knows how to sell a story and he did get the ball rolling with The Force Awakens; also, in his defense, he has had a lot on his plate and to deal with incredible expectations (such as appealing to both newcomers and long-time fans, which included those who liked the Prequels) and many unexpected problems, such as Carrie Fisher unexpectedly passing away, Colin Trevorrow getting fired and a nasty reactionary backlash to Episode VIII. One could argue that JJ Abrams should not have scrapped Colin Trevorrow's "Duel of the Fates" script - which is pretty good as far as I am concerned, despite the story arc involving Rey and Kylo being rather weak and anticlimactic - but even that might not have been enough, as again, plans do not always come together.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Rudolph

[hybridial]

13 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Well, he is not necessarily wrong.

 

I believe he genuinely misunderstands the point of a story; which I think is what lead to The Force Awakens being a poor retread. I want to make clear that I went to see The Force Awakens and I was done probably before the title crawl was even finished; because it completely swept aside the hope I had that it would be a new story we were getting, that imagination would be applied and we could see how the universe had *developed*. By the wanton destruction of 5 planets onscreen I felt corporate pornography is not too goddamn strong a term to apply to it. I felt it was witnessing the death of cinema on screen. An overreaction, somewhat yes, but I felt I could have some expectation for something new from this scale of property, and the sheer lack of imagination in any of it was damaging to my soul. 

 

What we got was two paragraphs that reduced everything back down to a copy of the opening of A New Hope. That's all we get in the movie to explain things. As for the backlash to The Last Jedi, on the political aspect I don't care at all, sure there were a lot of awful things said by awful people, but I do honestly also feel these were used to deflect genuine criticism of a badly made movie. In fact what I saw is a completely inept movie that did not give a shit, and Rian Johnson seemed to take glee in writing a script in which nothing happens purely because no one would expect that. And I loathe to bring any of it up, but if Johnson was genuinely attempting to right some form of wrong by showing women in a position of strength and being the ones who really know what they're doing, he made a giant pigs ear of it and it was immeasurably patronising. It was damaging to that cause, not a strong proponent of it, and I hope you can recognise that much. What was even the point of any of it anyway? Johnson missed the point as well to a different extreme. Of course, neither of these directors are to blame for the conditions they worked in... that can be put on Disney. There was no plan, there was no oversight, there was no direction or vision. They got to do what they wanted, the problem being they were supposed to be working off one another. Why on EARTH would you not have them fully collaborate? 

 

Marcia Lucas made a very insightful comment on these movies and the intent in making them and she had no reason to say anything other than her real thoughts, and I think they are the most concise way to describe what has happened here. Even George himself has commented on Disney's motivation being skewed towards making money, I mean he's certainly never been shy about that himself but I think the audacity and naked avarice here is a real problem. 

 

I'm actually glad that for the most part, this has damaged Star Wars as a property, as a moneymaker. Just to show that you can't do these things and there's no consequences for it. 

 

tl;dr, is Vader redeemable? Debatable. Is Disney? Hell Naw.