I don't think Darth Vader is redeemable Just because he killed Palpatine.

[Rudolph]

5 hours ago, Goat-Avenger said:

Most people can tell the difference between fiction and reality these days anyway, so we'll be fine.

Unfortunately, no. As the video pointed out, there are way too many people out there trying to shut down criticisms using the lore to explain issues away.

 

This is not to say that thinking critically about Star Wars has ruined my enjoyment of the Original Trilogy; I just think it is fair to point out not only the plot contrivances, but also the questionable messages that media end up sending, either willingly or not. 

 

5 hours ago, Goat-Avenger said:

Person A: Piece of fiction X has morally objectionable such and such.

Person B: Yeah mate, but it fits in with the context of the fictional universe.

Person A: Yeah, see mate, that's a thermian argument though.  It is fiction, not reality.  You can't justify a real wrong with a fictional context that suits it to a right.

Person B: ...

It is more like this:

 

Person A: There is a problematic aspect to piece of fiction X.

Person B: No, you are wrong: the lore of piece of fiction X says it is okay, therefore it cannot be problematic, so shut up!

Person A: ...

 

The Thermian Argument is what shuts down the conversation here. That is why it is a problem.

 

3 hours ago, Liberation said:

Most people I'm pretty sure watch SW for the Imperial class Star destroyers and the AT AT walkers.. oh and the Xwings I guess...  

I do not know, I just cannot get into most Star Wars spin-offs because it is just meaningless spectacle. It is like watching a random battle in Star Wars: Empire At War using the Cinematic Camera.

 

I mean, the final scene of Rogue One seems to be very popular online: while I can appreciate the set piece, I cannot overlook the fact that in addition to being gratuitous fan service, it contradicts the opening of A New Hope, where the captured Rebels pretend to be on a diplomatic mission. Why would they even bother with that ruse if, according to Rogue One, they know they have been seen escaping a battlefield by Darth Vader himself?

 

Incidentally, the same crew who made the Star Wars comedic dub I linked to earlier have made fun of those contradictions: 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[Liberation]

28 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I mean, the final scene of Rogue One seems to be very popular online: while I can appreciate the set piece, I cannot overlook the fact that in addition to being gratuitous fan service, it contradicts the opening of A New Hope, where the captured Rebels pretend to be on a diplomatic mission. Why would they even bother with that ruse if, according to Rogue One, they know they have been seen escaping a battlefield by Darth Vader himself?

 

I don't think you are wrong in that assessment, the whole of R1 being fan service. Giving SW fans more of what they wanted, more Empire, more star destroyers and more fighting set in the era that we love. I think we could probably overlook its short comings and slight distortion of the advents prior to ANH, just because it is what fans were hoping for.

And let's be honest, there was fuck all in the new trilogy for fans really. Garbage story line/arc, the new order were garbage and the Republic were not even a faction despite 20+ years passing since Return of the Jedi.. And not to mention the same recycled story arc for Kylo Ren doing good in the end, I mean heaven forbid doing something cool like having Rey cut down Palpatine and ruling the galaxy as Empress or something :-P  

[Gez]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Incidentally, the same crew who made the Star Wars comedic dub I linked to earlier have made fun of those contradictions: 

That was pretty fun. "I have been foiled by the superior engineering of the Empire".

 

38 minutes ago, Liberation said:

I don't think you are wrong in that assessment, the whole of R1 being fan service. Giving SW fans more of what they wanted, more Empire, more star destroyers and more fighting set in the era that we love. I think we could probably overlook its short comings and slight distortion of the advents prior to ANH, just because it is what fans were hoping for.

Honestly the canon story about the Death Star plans is Kyle Katarn raiding that imperial base as the first mission of Dark Forces.

[hybridial]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Person A: There is a problematic aspect to piece of fiction X.

Person B: No, you are wrong: the lore of piece of fiction X says it is okay, therefore it cannot be problematic, so shut up!

Person A: ...

 

The Thermian Argument is what shuts down the conversation here. That is why it is a problem.

 

I guess just to clarify, I have no issue with the OPs opinion. It's a very valid opinion. In fact the issue is if you take the prequels into account... it's less an opinion and more the ultimate conclusion if you think about any of this at all. That is why I call it bad writing, ultimately. Lucas' intent isn't really that in doubt but he fails in the execution; trying to hold up his canon philosophically is a flawed thing in the first place, don't bother, just say he fucked up. 

 

So yeah, I agree that trying to use the Force against it is a bad defence. You can give it a label if you like, the problem that runs into though is context. No "Thermian" argument might be equal, that's where the issue is for me; the quality of the writing matters because if it's actually good, then it can justify extreme events that make a person uncomfortable. 

 

If they say "okay, I just don't like this, its too extreme for me," that's fine. Even "I wouldn't have done it this way," is also fine. But someone can make an argument that is bad faith, that criticises without acknowledgement of the justification. That's my concern, I know neither you or the guy in the video are necessarily supporting that; it's just every discussion about art ever is all about context and almost no context will be exactly the same. I'd caution putting a label on it, because labels are very blunt tools. If it applies, fine, but I'd suggest scrutiny in all cases to try and be fair. 

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Liberation said:

I don't think you are wrong in that assessment, the whole of R1 being fan service.

Well, it depends. I did like the Garven Dreis cameo during the Battle of Scarif; the unused footage from A New Hope was integrated in a way that felt organic and seamless. That is the kind of "fan service" that I like, as it did not feel forced like the Darth Vader scene at the end.

 

1 hour ago, Liberation said:

And not to mention the same recycled story arc for Kylo Ren doing good in the end, I mean heaven forbid doing something cool like having Rey cut down Palpatine and ruling the galaxy as Empress or something

Yeah, even the unused "Duel of the Fates" script did not know what to do with Kylo Ren either.

 

Which is a shame, as the character had so much potential. Too many times, fascists in fiction are made to be these awe-inspiring powerful badasses, so it was refreshing at first to have one that is just an angsty failson who fashions himself after past tyrants as a desperate attempt to be taken seriously; if real life is any indication, those can be just as deadly and dangerous as larger-than-life villains that we are made to be scared of.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[luke11685]

Current,modern Star Wars movie series fanservice in nutshell these days,nowadays.

Edited March 12, 2022 by luke11685

[Zaxxon]

11 minutes ago, luke11685 said:

Current,modern Star Wars movie series fanservice in nutshell these days,nowadays.

 

It's a paradox how clutterd with fan service the new movies and shows are, while at the same time manage to destroy what the fans really like about Star Wars. The mythos, the classic characters, the atmosphere and the story continuity have been utterly oblitarated by the sequels. Like that wasn't enough damage already, they also retconned the first six films, while also decanonizing the original canon, so they can replace it with their shitty one. They'll milk that cow until there's nothing left but skin and bones, which they'll make into soup and the skin into decoration.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Zaxxon

[Rudolph]

@Zaxxon To be fair, the Expanded Universe was already a mess under LucasFilms' management, due to the Prequels retconning and recontextualizing the Original Trilogy. For example, Darth Vader went from being just an asshole in a suit who happens to be Luke's father in the original films to the Chosen One of some vague prophecy in the Prequels and then you had video games like The Force Unleashed who gave him not only an absolutely overpowered apprentice that made Luke Skywalker look like a joke, but also the ability to use the Force to crash an entire Star Destroyer.

 

Disney's decision to reboot the Expanded Universe is understandable to an extent.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[Dubbag]

6 hours ago, Rudolph said:

 

 

LOL I love this

[Rudolph]

@Dubbag Yeah, Auralnauts' Star Wars spoofs and music are great. Check them out!

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[Solmyr]

11 hours ago, hybridial said:

I sidestepped the Thermian thing to choose just to assess it for what it is, weak writing, glad to see somebody else realises it. Lucas had a shell of an idea when it came to the Jedi vs the Sith, but it's applied in such broad strokes within the movies. It's worked better in other pieces of Star Wars fiction (KOTOR II comes to mind), but it's haphazard at best in the original

Agreed, while G. Lucas had some good ideas that his colleagues helped fashion into an interesting universe, its fundamental traits tend to favor bad writing which is justified in lieu of good storytelling or reaching a satisfying conclusion; such as when the imperial fleet withdrew after the destruction of the second Death Star instead of pursuing the remainder of the rebel fleet, or when Luke realised Vader was his father because his "his feelings told him so". The later is justified for shock value and plot progression.

 

KOTOR I and II were great, although i'm more familliar with the first one.

 

11 hours ago, hybridial said:

I also think he went a bit over the top with spectacle; the Death Star being used as an instrument of such a level of mass murder on screen does indeed make it difficult to see anyone culpable as Vader redeemable; but if you interpret the scene as more about Luke and what he does, what he chooses to do, it still works. I mean, at least there was a point to all of it. There was no point to anything that JJ Abrams ever did in Star Wars. 

While it's true that G. Lucas went over the top with spectacle, its also part of what makes Star Wars good, it makes that universe feel much more larger than it actually is, and the empire far more powerful and capable of inexcusable evil feats such as the destruction of Alderaan. Look at the imperial flagship the "Executor" it's so stupidly large it overshadows a star destroyer in its first appearance, visually hammering to the audience how outmatched and screwed the Rebel Alliance is, a David vs Goliath visual metaphor.

In the Prequel Trilogy Lucas truly went too far with spectacle it became a compensation of the terrible plot.

Actually the one who ordered the destruction of Alderaan in ANH was Tarkin, Vader's superior, but yeah Vader was complicit and didn't care about that genocide, so he's partially responsible.

Also agreed with the Abrahams statement, but he had some cool ideas but were better off as an expanded universe story set long after the events of ROTJ, not as a pointless soft reboot of ANH pretending to be Episode VII

 

11 hours ago, hybridial said:

The Force Awakens is the movie that *embarrassingly* tries to make it literally like what you said here. They literally did that, had Maz Kanata state this is what the force actually is, in order to give themselves an excuse to keep telling the same story over. The Force Awakens was a much worse movie than people realise, and might be the worst of the trilogy just because it botched everything upfront so hard. It might be one of the worst stories in the history of fiction because it's so utterly fraudulent and inept.

Before gendebent Orange Yoda said that the force controlled everyone's destiny, Obi Wan Kenobi told Luke the same thing back in ANH. It's really shitty but i don't see it as an excuse to tell the same story, it was more like a throwback to the mystical aspect of the force and the movie trying to distance itself from the midichlorian bullshit. 

Are you sure the Force Awakens is that bad? Sure it's a soft reboot cashgrab made by a company that doesn't realize it didn't need to remake ANH because many kids are introduced to the original trilogy by their parents, but i digress. 

The Last Jedi was much worse, while TFA was the beginning of a mediocre pointless trilogy, this sequel drove it into the ground, Abrahams was a producer in this one but Ryan Johnson is the main culprit, the guy admitted in an interview that he didn't knew anything about Star Wars and didn't care enough to watch the OT, from that point on the ST deviated from it's original path of pointless mediocre but entertaining movies into terrible sequels that should've never saw the light of day.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Solmyr

[Nine Inch Heels]

13 hours ago, Goat-Avenger said:

I'm not sure what I'm not understanding?  You can't just make up logical fallacies for people to fall into.  It has to make sense.

It does make sense, because we - the viewers - look at any piece of fiction through the lens of our real world moral compass. So, if I deem something heinous in any piece of fiction, then I do that independently of the "made-up-laws" of that fictional universe, and explaining to me the laws of that universe does not falsify the argument made prior. As in: Telling me that Anakin Skywalker isn't actually a child-slayer, because it wasn't really him, it was just the dark side controlling him, doesn't change the fact that slaughtering dozens, if not hundreds of children is wrong under any circumstance...

13 hours ago, Goat-Avenger said:

To me, that same logic could be applied to an instance, where say, I went to a different culture, like the Aztecs, and said, 'oh my gosh you people are crazy,' and some defended their culture by saying, 'well that is how they do things in their culture, within the context of their culture, it's not barbaric at all; and I replied, 'logical fallacy, you are defending only within the context of their culture.'

The thermian argument applies only when fiction - or some aspect thereof - is subjected to scrutiny, not when real world cultures are the topic in question.

 

Having said that, Aztecs sacrificed human life during rituals to appease their very own so-called gods without any clear evidence that suggests their ways show any efficacy whatsoever. If you were to defend those sacrificial rituals by way of saying that "it's just like, uh, their culture, man", then you would have made a pretty shitty argument, for that matter. Not only do I already know that those sacrifices are part of their culture, but reminding me of something I already know does not falsify my argument that they're killing people for various reasons, none of which they can justify by way of tangible and beneficial real world consequences.

 

13 hours ago, Goat-Avenger said:

I personally can't just blindly accept definitions of strange logic and start using it.  I like to know why.  And the why, to me, makes no sense.  It is possible to critique a work of fiction within the context of that fiction alone.  it's also possible to critique the creators of that fiction, by pointing to things within the fiction itself.  It's possible to critique the creators themselves.  Etc.. Etc..

 

Yes, it is possible to criticize parts of a fiction solely by holding it up to the standards established by the very piece of fiction they're a part of. The thermian argument, or the concept thereof, doesn't say that you cannot do that, or that you shouldn't do that. You can still argue that, just based on the star wars plot, Anakin's turn to the dark side was the result of a series of choices made by himself throughout the story, which in turn means that Anakin is a naive moron without the ability to see through people's schemes even though they're unfolding right in front of his very own eyes - that's how the story was written in the first place... What the concept of the thermian argument means is that you cannot excuse the atrocities Anakin's committed by way of arguing that "he's been tricked by Sidious, so now he has no control over himself, because dark side of the force", because that doesn't make the child-slaying go away for some magical reason...

[Kute]

I'm not a big Star Wars guy and his crimes definitely forfeit any chance of redemption or exoneration -  but isn't he like, being mind controlled? By like literal magic? Idk if that counts for anything.

 

I have to say my piece on The Last Jedi though. I know this is a divisive film and unfortunately I think it turned into a political thing and not a movie quality thing, but this movie was the biggest misfire I've ever seen. He clearly knew nothing about the characters and didn't know how to approach the franchise, so he cut it off at the knees in an attempt to be deep. I don't blame him for not making a good Star Wars movie, at this point, I'm not sure what that would even be. There's so much baggage there that I would avoid it if I was a respected filmmaker. But boy did he demolish some characters and it bugs me when people say, "They're different people now". Like IDC what anyone says, that wasn't Luke Skywalker, and the character Patrick Stewart is playing nowadays is not Jean-Luc Picard. I mean they are, but it's not the same character. 

 

And the movie just goes absolutely nowhere, nothing is accomplished, I don't even know who they are fighting (snoke? Who was just another of Rian Johnson's subversions?) or where anyone was supposed to take that plot he left. The gambling planet sideplot went nowhere and did nothing. The treason-patriarchy-holdo subplot was... oh boy. This whole movie was like 2 hours of film that moved their little crew of survivors slightly further ahead. And the hyperjump thing shouldn't have been done, obviously all fleet battles in almost all fiction should be asteroids or ships loaded with explosives warped/jumped/rammed into the enemy, it's not clever to do it, it makes the entire fictional universe and all the creators who came before you look like an idiot, because how could they not have thought of something everyone thinks about automatically? 

 

I liked Kylo Ren's actor and the character was ok, I didn't hate Rey although the criticisms about her are reasonable enough IMO. 

 

Looper was decent. Knives-out is another one I don't understand though, I had to watch a movie so universally praised, but it wasn't anything special. It wasn't clever. It wasn't really funny, or... IDK it was just bland. Just did nothing for me. Never felt like a mystery and the reveal wasn't exactly usual suspects material. 

[Nine Inch Heels]

25 minutes ago, Kute said:

I'm not a big Star Wars guy and his crimes definitely forfeit any chance of redemption or exoneration -  but isn't he like, being mind controlled? By like literal magic? Idk if that counts for anything.

People pretend that "falling to the dark side" means people have no fucking clue what they're doing - and that's plain and simple wrong by any metric you could possibly apply...

 

Yes, in star wars lore, the dark side of the force is a compulsion of sorts, but there's nothing in it that suggests that Anakin never had any choice whatsoever, or that he wasn't aware of what he was doing...

[Dubbag]

30 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Yes, in star wars lore, the dark side of the force is a compulsion of sorts, but there's nothing in it that suggests that Anakin never had any choice whatsoever, or that he wasn't aware of what he was doing...

 Exactly, what Anakin did was unforgivable. However, the Darkside used sparingly can actually be used for good and doesnt corrupt as much as some one who dives as deep into it as Sidious and Vader. In order to even use it you have to pour raw anger or sadness into it. Windu did it. Plo-Koon did too. It also much more difficult to use than the lightside. But it does become addictive once one does dip into it, and using it sparingly would be like trying to use heroin sparingly, something almost no one can do. I actually empathize with Dooku because that was what made him special. he was trying to destroy the entire thing from the inside out and was willing to sacrifice everything including himself to keep palpatine from rising to power even his own friends if it meant he could get on Sidious's good side and take him out from with in.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Dubbag

[Dubbag]

Dooku tried to tell Obiwan but he wouldn't hear it.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Dubbag

[Rudolph]

What also bothers me is the way the Prequels depict the Light Side. I know it has been covered extensively already, but the Jedi Order is just so... creepy: they take young children away from their parents to train them to be emotionless monks who cannot even fall in love and then they act all puzzled when Anakin gets all frustrated. Of course, that would have been an interesting twist had the Prequels shown any interest in being actually critical of the Jedi and revealing that there is more to the Dark Side than cartoon villainy: instead, we are meant to view them as the good guys and Anakin is framed as both weak and gullible for getting deceived by Palpatine, the only person who appears willing to help him with his problem.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Rudolph

[Dubbag]

6 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

What also bothers me is the way the Prequels depict the Light Side. I know it has been covered extensively already, but the Jedi Order is just so... creepy: they take young children away from their parents to train them to be emotionless monks who cannot even fall in love and then they act all puzzled when Anakin gets all frustrated. Of course, that would have been an interesting twist had the Prequels shown any interest in being actually critical of the Jedi and revealing that there is more to the Dark Side than cartoon villainy: instead, we are meant to view them as the good guys and Anakin is framed as both weak and gullible for getting deceived by Palpatine, the only person who pretends to empathize with what he is going through.

thats why they lost.

[Rudolph]

Not really. According to the movies, at least, they lose because of Order 66 and some truly absurd plot contrivances.

 

Again, the Prequels are really not critical of the Jedi: both the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan are shown repeatedly to be rather skeptical of Anakin and doubting he is Jedi material, but they still take him in and allow him to hang around because Qui-Gon Jinn asked Obi-Wan to. 

 

So if anything, the message there is that the problem was not the Jedi, but Anakin all along.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Rudolph

[Dubbag]

18 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Not really. According to the movies, at least, they lose because of Order 66 and some truly absurd plot contrivances.

 

Again, the Prequels are really not critical of the Jedi: both the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan are shown repeatedly to be rather skeptical of Anakin and doubting he is Jedi material, but they still take him in and allow him to hang around because Qui-Gon Jinn asked Obi-Wan to. 

 

So if anything, the message there is that the problem was not the Jedi, but Anakin all along.

the sith kept advancing in ideals while the Jedi stayed the same. Their arrogance and belief that they knew everything plus their refusal to get with the times was their downfall. The Sith were in hiding and believed to be extinct for a 1000 years before Episode 1. All that time they were plotting generation by generation,only two people at a time. While the Jedi stayed the same and were oblivious and just became figure heads sitting in chairs.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Dubbag

[Dubbag]

@Biodegradable what are your thoughts? LOL

[Mr. Freeze]

2 hours ago, Kute said:

I'm not a big Star Wars guy and his crimes definitely forfeit any chance of redemption or exoneration -  but isn't he like, being mind controlled? By like literal magic? Idk if that counts for anything.

 

 

Vader isn't be mind controlled per se but if you view the Dark Side as pure temptation, he gave into his base desires and found himself in a hole he couldn't escape until his son helped to redeem him. Anakin Skywalker would have loathed Darth Vader, but when Vader rises Anakin is symbolically killed. 

[Biodegradable]

8 minutes ago, Dubbag said:

@Biodegradable what are your thoughts? LOL

 

I'll let you know the day I suddenly give a shit about Star Wars again. :^P 

[Dubbag]

45 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

I'll let you know the day I suddenly give a shit about Star Wars again. :^P 

i got time.

[Dubbag]

On 3/11/2022 at 3:19 AM, smeghammer said:

NOTE: I have not seen episodes VII to IX, so I can't comment on anything in these.

Don't worry those don't matter.

[Solmyr]

 

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

What also bothers me is the way the Prequels depict the Light Side. I know it has been covered extensively already, but the Jedi Order is just so... creepy: they take young children away from their parents to train them to be emotionless monks who cannot even fall in love and then they act all puzzled when Anakin gets all frustrated. Of course, that would have been an interesting twist had the Prequels shown any interest in being actually critical of the Jedi and revealing that there is more to the Dark Side than cartoon villainy: instead, we are meant to view them as the good guys and Anakin is framed as both weak and gullible for getting deceived by Palpatine, the only person who appears willing to help him with his problem.

Yeah the Jedi Order as a creepy ascetic cult clashes with their backstory in the original trilogy, they were just an order of guardians that stood up for peace and protected the galactic republic for over a thousand generations. Their portrayal in the prequels is the result of G. Lucas being complacent and unlike in the original trilogy there was no one to challenge his views or give him creative input. 

It would've been interesting to see a "grey" aspect of the Dark Side of the force but it clashes with the established portrayal of Star Wars conflicts (at least the movies) as just good vs evil.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Solmyr

[7Mahonin]

I thought this was fitting for this discussion. 

[Liberation]

Yeah I never thought much of the Jedi order in the prequels, came over as arrogant and pretentious to a degree. But I think that was Lucas trying to make them look cool. Tbh I found the prequels pretty childish till order 66 is issued and then it takes a rather harsh nose dive into something a bit more serious/dark, which is the twist we had been waiting for and is enjoyable story wise for the most part, the youngling massacre however was the most non SW thing going tho.

 

Anakin was a drip, but the minute he allowed his bitterness and angry to consume him and he kneeled down before Sidious for the first time, Anakin was all but lost. The death of Padme being the last nail in the coffin before he was just consumed by the dark side.

[Rudolph]

9 hours ago, Dubbag said:

the sith kept advancing in ideals while the Jedi stayed the same. Their arrogance and belief that they knew everything plus their refusal to get with the times was their downfall. The Sith were in hiding and believed to be extinct for a 1000 years before Episode 1. All that time they were plotting generation by generation, only two people at a time. While the Jedi stayed the same and were oblivious and just became figure heads sitting in chairs.

I am sure the Expanded Universe tried its best to flesh out the movies and make them make sense, but honestly, it is like polishing a turd. That is why I could never bring myself to care about the Clone Wars show and such; well, that and the facts that I already know how it is going to end - i.e. most of the characters are going to either die like chumps or have little to no impact on what comes next - and the CG animation looks pretty bad to me. 

 

Also, in the scene you linked, Dooku gives Obi-Wan no evidence, no reason to believe him, and when Obi-Wan unexpectedly does not believe him, Dooku immediately gives up and tries to have him kill instead. And then, at the end of the movie, Dooku is shown to be working for Palpatine, which just makes the former looks more duplicitous and untrustworthy than this supposedly tragic heroic figure.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Rudolph

[Liberation]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

I am sure the Expanded Universe tried its best to flesh out the movies and make them make sense

 

Alot of that was actually pretty cool, the Imperial remnant and the Republic being big factions. But that was wiped out.

The only actual canon I'm aware of post RoTJ is StarWars squadrons, which has some excellent bits for Imperial fans.. But the rebel side seemed rather childish.