Does Anyone Else Get Frustrated When YouTubers Do Doom Dirty?

[Noiser]

5 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

2) GZdoom uses a more precise movement than vanilla. This one is pretty much unnoticable but it is not possible to change back to vanilla. If I remember correctly, in the vanilla, it was impossible to travel straight North, South, West and East.

Sometimes it's more precise, sometimes it's less. GZDoom physics are inaccurate in some areas - including a few dehacked incongruences, conveyor belts or crushers that doesn't work as intended (a crucial feat if you want to create timed events on vanilla\boom) and the impossibility of using engine quirks to their limits, like mikoportals\linguortals. These issues can prevent your map to run on GZDoom in some situations.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Noiser

[Nikku4211]

I know I'm supposed to be grateful that anyone's playing '90s Doom at all, but I can't stand it when people who play Doom on DOSBox use 'aspect=false' square pixels, or when people prefer it that way.

 

People do people I guess.

 

1 hour ago, ImproversGaming said:

If you are generous enough to develop maps, mods or whatever, for others to play, make sure you specify the intent if you wish it to be played a particular way - I read the notes!

I need to remember to specify 'vanilla' in the 'advanced engine needed' instead of 'none' for my vanilla maps.

 

At least then people who actually bother to read the text should be aware that the map is meant to be played in vanilla, which means no jumping, crouching, or mouselook.

[Bridgeburner56]

16 hours ago, act said:

One thing I can't find an excuse for is how GZDoom - and any other source ports - aren't ever sold as what they are, proper video game engines.

I think that's going to change quite drastically over the next 12 -18 months as the dozen or so GZDoom based games get released. 

[gwain]

15 hours ago, Crystal-Hawk_D00M said:

Does it really matter though? It's not like some random no-name youtuber killed your pet bunny just by playing the game how they prefer visually.

when you think this way about everything that doesn't apply to your daily life such as most current events you will have escaped the mass depressive apathy of the general population

 

 

(edited for clarity)

Edited March 20, 2022 by gwain

[act]

10 hours ago, rzh said:

I do dislike the way GZDoom looks by "default" and I hate how people who don't do a lot of research make videos on Doom, especially when they get something wrong.

But I like GZDoom itself and use it often, but for gameplay mods and TCs only, not for mapsets. That's what complevels are for.

Basically, GZDoom is good but attracts lots of "ignorant" (in quotations because I can't find the right word for it, even ignorant is too harsh) people and that leaves a bad taste by association.

Once again, the guy who associates himself with Rome ends up making what may just be the best post of the thread.

[Roofi]

5 minutes ago, Nikku4211 said:

I know I'm supposed to be grateful that anyone's playing '90s Doom at all, but I can't stand it when people who play Doom on DOSBox use 'aspect=false' square pixels, or when people prefer it that way.

 

People do people I guess.

 

 

I feel oddly concerned heh.

 

For my part, I tolerate videomakers who use gzdoom as long as they don't use weapon mods, cosmetic "upgrades" (which are rarely upgrades for my taste) or simply actions like jumping or crouching which usually break the map.

 

I tolerate freelook even if it is 99% of the time useless in a game like Doom.

 

[GraphicBleeder]

Seeing Doom with all the ugly GZDoom default presets is annoying, but honestly I don't really care.

[Dark Pulse]

On the fence.

 

On one hand, it's not hard to understand why they view Doom that way. A lot of the younger content creators, especially, were born after Doom had its heyday, and by the time they were forming memories, true 3D FPS games were out. The modern equivalent for many of us might be wondering what all the fuss about Pong, Asteroids, or Space Invaders was all about.

 

On the other hand, it's not given enough credit. I always hold that if you're going to do critical analysis and viewpoints of a product, good ethics demands that you view it through the lens of the time. Holding Doom up to modern FPS standards, or hell, even late 90s FPS standards, is absolutely silly. Holding it up to 1993 standards? Now we're talking.

 

So to me, it depends on how they're viewing it. I can understand why at first blush it'd not really be anything impressive to them. But on the other hand, if they don't at least pay respect to the timeframe, then I just tend to disregard their opinions as ill-informed.

 

And yes, while you can feel like a gameplay mod makes the game better or "This is how it should've been!", until they can reproduce that effect on 1993 PCs, to me that's just pure hyperbole and likewise disregarded if presented as anything but opinion.

[Mr. Freeze]

I don't watch any Doom videos on YouTube so who cares lmao

[Doomkid]

Look, some people have opinions about Doom that are wrong, and that’s just fine. They have the right to that opinion, and I have the right to point out that they’re a misinformed goober who rushed into Doom as quickly as they could when they saw it was a somewhat trendy game to talk about on YT.

 

It’s a win-win, right? I get to exercise my passion for Doom by occasionally debunking moronic, baseless claims, and they get to exercise their passion for ad revenue from shoddily researched videos. What’s not to love? (The “shoddy research” types are the exception rather than the norm though, thankfully)

 

EDIT: I’m very sympathetic to the place act is coming from in the OP, although comparing DOS Doom - one of the most fun and influential EXEs ever to grace humanity - to “garbage by the wayside” just because it lacks feature bloat is a hard pill to swallow :)

 

 

dont take this too seriously plz

 

[Mr. Freeze]

6 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

It’s a win-win, right? I get to exercise my passion for Doom by occasionally debunking moronic, baseless claims, and they get to exercise their passion for ad revenue from shoddily researched videos. What’s not to love?

 

Woah you can't just call out Under The Mayo like that! 

[GraphicBleeder]

Who's Under The Mayo?

[Wavy]

I think it's great that they are playing and talking about Doom, but I can't help being at least a little bit annoyed when Youtubers get tiny aspects of Doom wrong, or playing with a certain setting that I don't particularly enjoy.

 

Then again, I can't be too mad. It becomes far easier to nitpick when you're more knowledgeable in a certain topic such as Doom. So I consider it just a byproduct of being more well inverse in a certain subject.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

It's not a big deal, but when they use another port that isn't GZDoom I smile and think:

 

A man of culture I see...

 

Not that GZDoom is bad, it's an awesome port and it's popularity is well earned. however I think (Keywords: I think) that if you're going to review a game like Doom the best way would be to play it through a more accurate port, like Crispy-Doom, Woof! or Prboom-plus, or through DosBox or Chocolate with Aspect ratio correction

 

That's the way I see it

[act]

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

On one hand, it's not hard to understand why they view Doom that way. A lot of the younger content creators, especially, were born after Doom had its heyday, and by the time they were forming memories, true 3D FPS games were out. The modern equivalent for many of us might be wondering what all the fuss about Pong, Asteroids, or Space Invaders was all about.

But that's the thing: I am one of the younger content creators, and I find it horrible how many people close in my age throw this glorious, well-documented testament to the evolution of technology and people's motive to create something for the fun of it. We have so much time on our hands, yet we can't spend any time researching into the beauty that is Doom, it's source ports, development history, etc. It's just a microchasm of the horrible phenomenon my generation has fallen into; discarding information by the wayside even when it's all there for them to gather and they're given all the time in the world to learn it.

[Faceman2000]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

I have the right to point out that they’re a misinformed goober who rushed into Doom as quickly as they could when they saw it was a somewhat trendy game to talk about on YT.

Lol @Gmanlives.

 

Seriously though, he puts himself up as some kind of authority on classic shooters but I get major vibes that he played Doom 3 a little as a kid and loves nuDoom and is pretending he’s been a few of the originals since the beginning. He’s made far too many comments belying a great deal of ignorance.

 

As others have said, it’s okay to be wrong or mistaken on things, but when you’ve got a massive influential channel and you put yourself up as an authority on the matter then you have a level of responsibility to at least do your research.

[PasokonDeacon]

18 minutes ago, act said:

But that's the thing: I am one of the younger content creators, and I find it horrible how many people close in my age throw this glorious, well-documented testament to the evolution of technology and people's motive to create something for the fun of it. We have so much time on our hands, yet we can't spend any time researching into the beauty that is Doom, it's source ports, development history, etc. It's just a microchasm of the horrible phenomenon my generation has fallen into; discarding information by the wayside even when it's all there for them to gather and they're given all the time in the world to learn it.

For some of these uploaders, it's just a casual activity more so than a calling, something they'd really invest in. And for others, maybe they're just looking to get clout fast, so sheer output trumps accuracy and finer touches in their videos. It's no different from any other media interest with a lot of attention on YouTube and social media these days. All I can hope to do is filter out the schlock and boost the playthroughs, podcasts, and video essays which I think enrich discourse vs. fluff and/or inflammatory content. Life's too short for me to begrudge any of these creators except the likes of Gmanlives and others who pretend to know more than they really do, all while spreading misinformation from a position of supposed authority. But even then, why waste my time on buttholes like them when I have other things to do?

 

I definitely think curation is a constant issue WRT Doom on YouTube. The likes of decino, Doomkid, Dean of Doom, Dwars, etc. shouldn't be the only major voices regularly known in that space, but there's only so many invested viewers/commenters at this point. I'd say be the change you want to see in the world (cliche, I know) and find a niche that's currently unfulfilled or deserving of more perspectives. For instance, I personally want to do some analytic essays about maps/sets I like and maybe tie that into DW Megawad Club discussions from past and present, but I have other time-sensitive hobbies getting in the way of that. So I'd probably be glad if someone did something of that sort before I have to, so on and so forth.

[General Ulysses S. Grant]

I couldn't agree more on the point of gzdoom and other source ports being there own engines. At least with gzdoom, I mess with the iwadinfo lump info all the time, not to mention all the custom games like "The Adventures of Square" which is an amazing game that gzdoom natively supports and doesn't really have any connection to doom aside from a similar code bass.

[Mayomancer]

The source port thing can sometimes be either just a lack of knowledge about the variety there is, differences in philosophy (the most feature rich port has to be the better one, why'd i need anything else... or something like that), or for the sake of brevity while making a script for the video. I don't think it's offensive that some people just have the exact means of playing Doom as a second priority.

Edit. Unless the technology aspect is relevant to the video and ends up being misrepresented or 'done dirty' for the reasons op mentioned.

 

What I do have a bigger peeve with is what MattFright said about some mods specifically getting a lot of the praise as obvious improvements over the original game, or showing footage of heavily modded gameplay as representative of what the actual game is. I won't go on a gatekeeping rant about it, people enjoy what they do, but it certainly gets me silently judging the persons' taste.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Mayomancer

[Major Arlene]

23 minutes ago, act said:

But that's the thing: I am one of the younger content creators, and I find it horrible how many people close in my age throw this glorious, well-documented testament to the evolution of technology and people's motive to create something for the fun of it. We have so much time on our hands, yet we can't spend any time researching into the beauty that is Doom, it's source ports, development history, etc. It's just a microchasm of the horrible phenomenon my generation has fallen into; discarding information by the wayside even when it's all there for them to gather and they're given all the time in the world to learn it.

it's not that serious bro, if that's what you want to do, no one's stopping you! some people just want to have fun making videos and don't want to do research, and that can and should be acceptable. also keep in mind not everyone does this as a full time thing- many of these content creators are working jobs on top of making videos so by the time they do a well-researched video with all the edits it may be way longer to sink effort into than a lightly edited gameplay vid. keep in mind most people do not get paid by YT since adpocolypse, money isn't everything but it does provide income to help with improving videos.

[colorful keyboard]

Gzdoom is not wrong, only the ignorant players who break the map with gzdoom are wrong.

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, act said:

But that's the thing: I am one of the younger content creators, and I find it horrible how many people close in my age throw this glorious, well-documented testament to the evolution of technology and people's motive to create something for the fun of it. We have so much time on our hands, yet we can't spend any time researching into the beauty that is Doom, it's source ports, development history, etc. It's just a microchasm of the horrible phenomenon my generation has fallen into; discarding information by the wayside even when it's all there for them to gather and they're given all the time in the world to learn it.

You're also one of those ones who's doing it exactly right by the standards I mentioned, so it's up to you to be one of the ones to dispel the misinformation and provide a well-thought, well-structured argument that gives people crucial context and comparison.
 

Critical thinking is, sadly, not a subject prioritized by education systems anymore.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[Biodegradable]

The spread of general misinformation sucks, but we can't expect everyone to be big Doom nerds like us who want to learn every minute aspect of it. Naturally, we can dunk on hucksters like GmanLives who shirk basic research in favour of chasing analytics, but we can also be thankful to YouTubers for spotlighting the community's efforts/output in general; which in turn only brings new blood into the game and the community. Said new bloods who will want to become mega Doom dorks too will learn the bigger picture should they invest their time into it like we all do. At the end of the day, it's all about spreading the joy of Doom as our boy MtPain27 always puts it. It's a game after all and games are supposed to be fun.

 

YouTube coverage of Doom, especially the community's creative/technological efforts, regardless of what port or mods the video creators happen to use is a net positive from where I'm sitting. Moaning about people's visual display settings in their gameplay footage is just feckless twaddle that only serves to make you look like an elitist clown. Just let 'em murder demons and showcase how cool Doom is, fam.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Biodegradable

[Shepardus]

Part of what makes Doom great is that people have the freedom to play it however they want, and I'm inclined to keep it that way. I could easily argue that OP is a heathen for suggesting that Smooth Doom makes the game better, but I'm not going to, because why should I get in the way of people enjoying it? (not to mention that I'm actually using it when playing through RAMP...) I don't even mind people "breaking" maps, whether it be through arcane speedrunning tricks or an unholy mixture of mods. To me it's only an issue if people blame mappers or source port devs for problems they brought upon themselves. With great power comes great responsibility, and that includes taking responsibility for your setup.

 

18 hours ago, 7Mahonin said:

Also, I will give an unpopular opinion and say I don’t prefer smoothdoom. It looks unnatural to me. It’s hard to explain why though, but I think it has something to do with how the frames look more seamless (and I get that’s basically the point) in a way that feels too seamless - that it is almost comical in a way.

I get what you mean. I think it's because the original animations weren't all that natural to begin with, and smoothing them out makes that more obvious. To get really natural-looking animations, I think a lot of timings would have to be readjusted, and perhaps more.

[Lila Feuer]

GZDoom's defaults are the chaotic evil of Doom aesthetics.

[Maribo]

Doom should be done as dirty as possible, purity was thrown out the window when 320x200 stopped being mandatory.

[brick]

21 hours ago, 7Mahonin said:

I setup GZDoom to look and feel as close to the original DOS game as possible but with higher resolution, increased sound channels, etc. I turn cl_maxdecals to 0 and remove the transparency of the lost soul and imp fire balls. So I think anyone with the know-how can easily get GZDoom to look the way they want it to. It just takes the user taking some time to mess with the settings. 

I used to feel the same, but honestly configuring GZDoom isn't even that bad, the sub-menus are laid out pretty well and I think I only had trouble once trying to find a specific setting I wanted to change. Every other time, when noticing something wasn't right (eg I wanted fireball transparency off) it took a minute to find. I've been trying out as many other ports as possible recently, and I can confidently say getting Doomsday to work just the way I want it is much, much more daunting, and I may give up because of just how many options there are, and that's just the graphics. By comparison GZDoom is much more straightforward.

 

15 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

2) GZdoom uses a more precise movement than vanilla. This one is pretty much unnoticable but it is not possible to change back to vanilla. If I remember correctly, in the vanilla, it was impossible to travel straight North, South, West and East.

 

The default settings of GZDoom are quite far off from a purist point of view and require changing a decent amount of stuff. Which I think is the reason most people just use the defaults as they don't want to fiddle with it. The presets help, but only with fine-tuning will you achieve exactly what you want.

For example, by default, GZdoom makes it so that Partial Invisibility makes the enemies not spot you.

The NSWE travel is a compatibility flag, unless it's not working the way it should (at which point it may be worth letting the devs know) you can change it to vanilla behaviour.

 

For the default settings, I get what you mean, but I don't think I agree with your phrasing. Of course you can only achieve exactly what you (or I) want by fine-tuning, that's the whole point. But if you want just bulk behaviour similar to vanilla, the presets work fine (especially the Strict versions). I actually like being able to start from a general "everything like Doom" and then only change the things that I want to something else (usually Strict Doom but with no infinite tall - I really hate that and do not miss it).

 

It might also be a naming issue, but Default isn't "Doom Default", it's just all compat flags turned off. Useful for modern TCs that set their own (or don't use any) flags, not something to play any older wads with. The Invis behaviour works as in vanilla for any of the Doom/Boom presets, for example.

[The Royal We]

Brazilian politics makes me frustrated, not youtubers

[ReaperAA]

People playing doom using texture filtering or gameplay mods don't bother me much. As long as they are having fun, I consider it a win for Doom. Only time I am annoyed is when people try to shit on Doom or just undermine Doom's revolutionary status among FPS games just to make their game look superior (like the fans of a certain 90's fps franchise from Bungie).

[Jaccident]

10 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I get to exercise my passion for Doom by occasionally debunking moronic, baseless claims, and they get to exercise their passion for ad revenue from shoddily researched videos. What’s not to love?

That Game Theory video came to mind when reading this, which is funny because that video was actually how I discovered doom exists, and your video debunking it was how I found your channel.

 

I do think some people are missing the idea that anyone talking about doom at all is a net positive for the community, because any conversation around it will lead to some people getting recommended more doom videos, or trying doom for themselves. Yeah, it’s annoying when they do it badly, but usually it’s coming from a good place.