Carry fractional ticks? -shorttics?

[Fluuschoen]

Hey,


I was just wondering, if you use a source port which can enable/disable carry fractional ticks and support the lowered turn resolution, which one do you use (or maybe both) and why?


My main port is DSDA-Doom since 0.21.3, but ever since I decided to record some demos from time to time, I always used -shorttics (with Crispy/Choco as well), even when I was just casually fucking around, so I can get used to it for the time when it will be mandatory. I started to really like it, and it's actually easier to measure things with it or getting the right angles for a trick (there are very few exceptions). A no brainer stayer.

This is not some extraordinary or interesting stuff, I'm sure plenty of people feel the same, but the following one, my relation to carry fractional ticks is kinda unorthodox. Maybe not for the community, but for me, it certainly is. Let me explain, if you haven't fallen asleep already: I come from a quaker background, played it for basically two decades, managed to get to a pretty high level while being very aim-heavy, so mouse control was always a crucial aspect of my game besides other related technical circumstances (like at least 4KRO keyboard, 100+ Hz monitor, fix 125/250 fps etc.). I was so keen on eliminating imprecision, lags, stutter and such, that you might have called me an elitist. Well, you would have been right, but hey, proper fluid destruction needs proper tools, more so if you are not hunting potatoes. I'm getting bald anyways, no need to lose more hair than it's absolutely necessary. : D

Here comes the weird part; most Doom source ports feels input laggy for me, no matter the settings. It's not magic or placebo, as I got used to super sharp engines before, played thousands and thousands of hours with them, had good peripherals as well, so the standards became really high. In terms of classic Doom, the best mouse feel I think is in Chocolate Doom 3.0.1, Crispy Doom 5.8.0 and DSDA-Doom 0.21.3 and upwards, but in the latter case, OpenGL/shaders only, because the software renderer still feels floaty, unconnected (but still better than old PrB+). 



Earlier I decided that 35 fps is the way to go (with 144 Hz reduced to 105 Hz via custom refresh rate tool), it felt pretty responsive and while uncapped frame rate is light years ahead in terms of fluidity and perceived speed (I'm a junkie on these things), that floaty feeling is still somewhat there and that drove me nuts. V-Sync is off of course, it's even worse with that, but that's a given because of how it works. Never had an issue with screen tearing, but if I would have, I'd still choose that instead of the floaty V-Sync.

Then I started to main different versions of Crispy, and settled with 5.8.0 (which I still think is the best release, but that's a subjective feeling thing), which just felt right after half a day or so with 700-1100 fps, quite snappy and all, got used to the slight delay (well, compared to Quakes anyway, it's still better mouse handling than any other source port out there, except for maybe Chocolate and GZDoom, but that's another story), so it became the new standard. While I always liked PrBoom+'s options, its software renderer was beyond redemption in terms of responsiveness. OpenGL was so-so, but muh, me wants 8 bit. Eh, whatever, DSDA came, and it's a good ride, it's slowly getting there, having much fun with it (with OpenGL/shaders; well, it's not vanilla, but it's the closest GPU accelerated render to it), but the new PrBoom+ v2.6.2 had a tremendous leap forward in software mode. It's not quite at Crispy level yet, but it's really a night and day difference compared to how it was before, so I was honestly surprised. According to fabian, the frame interpolation calculation has been improved. This have to find its way into DSDA!

 

But back to the main topic, which this damn wall of text is about: so there's the carry fractional ticks option in PrB+ and DSDA. If it's on, it raises the turn resolution, but if it's off, it lowers it, to the point where you can veeery slowly crawl you mouse across your 1,5 m long desk, and the PoV still won't move an inch. Like your input didn't exist. Back in 2020, when I first saw this setting in PrB+, I was dumbfounded; who would want to intentionally use something like this? Why? Bleh. Urgh. Where's the precision? What am I doing here, still? More importantly, where's my Crispy?

Then much later (this year) I downloaded Meowgi's Practice Hub – which is a brilliant complevel 9 megawad, aimed at practicing movement/tricks, surely Cacoward-worthy in my book –, and started to having fun with the rocket jump training first (dem quaker roots : D). I was practicing, but also experimenting at the same time, and I found out that I actually REALLY like carry fractional ticks off (+ -shorttics)! What a blasphemy, if I think about the past! But there's a reason; it might make some precise alignments easier, because you have a much higher threshold for error, as not every single little twitch of your potato hands gonna get translated to actual movement on the screen. It was a bit alien at first, I was reluctant, but as the minutes (and map restarts) went by, I adapted to it very quicky (basically a few hours, even less), as you basically just have to have a bit more "determination" with your hand movement, and the situations where I'd want it to be turned off are practically non-existent (maybe some long rage sniping shots with the chaingun). Well, performing glides might be one of those situations, but I haven't practiced them much yet, so I can't comment on the issue in depth. For your pleasure, as this post is already waaaay longer than I planned it to be. : D


/verymuchsointeresting rant finally off, let's discuss! What do YOU think? What are your preferences and why? Do you even care? DO YOU EVEN LIFT, BRUH? : >

Edited March 22, 2022 by Fluuschoen

[Shepardus]

Some people do turn off "carry fractional tics" to help with glides, as it's easier not to accidentally lose your angle after lining up.

[Fluuschoen]

8 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

Some people do turn off "carry fractional tics" to help with glides, as it's easier not to accidentally lose your angle after lining up.

 
I'm one of those, but it was for easier rocket jumps initially, then stuck with it – and glad I might have just found Nirvana. I figured this would be the case with glides, but on the other hand, your first alignment has to be filled with more "intent", you have to get to the proper angle with a single (or fewer) hand gesture, as you can't really do precise microcorrections, if the setting is off.


What do you use and why?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Fluuschoen

[Maribo]

Always -shorttics with carry fractional tics off, for the reason Shepardus posted. I play with quite high sensitivity, (but not as high as some people like Rayziik), so it makes twitching to the wrong angle a lot less common.

[Fluuschoen]

3 hours ago, Maribo said:

Always -shorttics with carry fractional tics off, for the reason Shepardus posted. I play with quite high sensitivity, (but not as high as some people like Rayziik), so it makes twitching to the wrong angle a lot less common.

What's your cm/180°?

[aika]

I didn't actually know what carry fractional tics does so thanks for explaining that! I've always had it on I think. I like to record demos and always have shorttics enabled because that's what I'm used to.

 

I just tried disabling carry fractional and it felt very weird, although I can definitely see it being useful with speedrunning tricks.

 

[Fluuschoen]

21 hours ago, aika said:

I didn't actually know what carry fractional tics does so thanks for explaining that! I've always had it on I think. I like to record demos and always have shorttics enabled because that's what I'm used to.

 

I just tried disabling carry fractional and it felt very weird, although I can definitely see it being useful with speedrunning tricks.

 

How about giving it a fair chance? I was very reluctant too, but that rocket jump training map converted me, and it just quickly becomes second nature to use it. I think SR40 and SR50 are also a bit easier with it (for the same reason as rocket jumps, and apparently squeeze glides).

Edited March 25, 2022 by Fluuschoen

[Shepardus]

5 hours ago, Fluuschoen said:

How about giving it a fair chance? I was very reluctant too, but that rocket jump training map converted me, and it just quickly becomes second nature to use it. I think SR40 and SR50 are also a bit easier with it (for the same reason as rocket jumps, and apparently squeeze glides).

How does it make SR50 easier? You can't even turn while using SR50.

[SleepyVelvet]

I actually didn't know about Carry Fractional Ticks.  I'm not sure if it's a togglable thing in Prboom-Plus 2.5.1.3.  But, it's interesting to know about. 

I do use -shorttics almost exclusively though. 

I've experimented with uncapped framerate, but I've returned to 35 fps for purity's sake.

 

On 3/23/2022 at 11:27 AM, Fluuschoen said:

What's your cm/180°?

You didn't ask me, but mine is probably 3.5cm/180°, currently.  But I use a thumb trackball, so it's more like 90°ballturn/180°cameraturn.  I do experience "hiccups" from the mouse even though I like the mouse in general, which I suppose mixes into the conversation about grain-of-movement and flow.

 

1 hour ago, Shepardus said:

How does it make SR50 easier? You can't even turn while using SR50.

I'm guessing it helps ensure that you are zeroed in on an exact angle, and not a fractional tick closer to messing up your angle when you tennis-grunt-smash all the simultaneous inputs together for the SR50?

Edited March 25, 2022 by NoisyVelvet
clarity.

[Shepardus]

32 minutes ago, NoisyVelvet said:

I actually didn't know about Carry Fractional Ticks.  I'm not sure if it's a togglable thing in Prboom-Plus 2.5.1.3.  But, it's interesting to know about.

It was added in 2020 (ported over from Chocolate Doom), so any version up to and including 2.5.1.7 will always behave as if it's turned off.

[GarrettChan]

58 minutes ago, NoisyVelvet said:

I'm guessing it helps ensure that you are zeroed in on an exact angle, and not a fractional tick closer to messing up your angle when you tennis-grunt-smash all the simultaneous inputs together for the SR50?

Technically, pressing "strafe on" before the "turn" is a prevention to the accidental turning, heh. I was learning precise angle rocket jumping or whatnot, and I always screw up because of the different order or pressing buttons. (I mean yeah, you can press it at the same time, but sometimes you can't)

 

On topic: I simply can't play with "Carry Fractional Tics"... I guess it's just different control feeling. I remember when I was transitioning to PrBoom+ 2.5.1.5 and I said the control is strange and everybody told me to turn this on, but after a while, I realize... this is actually the culprit to make it weird, funny.

[BigBoy91]

I absolutely cannot play without "carry fractional tics" on. Feels downright unresponsive. Maybe I'll learn to adapt when there's a run where disabling it would noticeably benefit me. I play with default sensitivity in DSDA-Doom and my mouse is at 1000dpi with a low polling rate.

[Fluuschoen]

On 3/26/2022 at 12:19 AM, NoisyVelvet said:

I'm guessing it helps ensure that you are zeroed in on an exact angle, and not a fractional tick closer to messing up your angle when you tennis-grunt-smash all the simultaneous inputs together for the SR50?

Exactly. Easier to take the initial angle.

 

On 3/26/2022 at 1:20 AM, GarrettChan said:

Technically, pressing "strafe on" before the "turn" is a prevention to the accidental turning, heh. I was learning precise angle rocket jumping or whatnot, and I always screw up because of the different order or pressing buttons. (I mean yeah, you can press it at the same time, but sometimes you can't)

It's not necessarily for avoiding accidental turning, but more so getting the angle correctly at first.

Yeah, SR50ing can be tricky sometimes. I try to circumvent it by having multiple binds; turn left is CTRL and MOUSE 4, while turn right is ALT and MOUSE 5, so I can find a comfortable approach more easily.

 

 

On 3/28/2022 at 11:06 PM, BigBoy91 said:

I absolutely cannot play without "carry fractional tics" on. Feels downright unresponsive. 

It really doesn't, if you are not uber-high sens and you have resolute mouse handling (meaning you barely need corrections).

Why do you use low (I presume it's either 125 or 250 Hz) polling rate though?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Fluuschoen
Typo. And OCD. : D

[GarrettChan]

41 minutes ago, Fluuschoen said:

Yeah, SR50ing can be tricky sometimes. I try to circumvent it by having multiple binds; turn left is CTRL and MOUSE 4, while turn right is ALT and MOUSE 5, so I can find a comfortable approach more easily.

The 4-key I used are all on keyboard, so it's not easy to make your 4 fingers cooperate heh. I usually use visual cue to setup my angle so they are right most of the time, but accidentally turn left/right a bit when performing the SR50 is likely to happen back in 2 years ago. Now my control is more precise, so this is more rare to happen.

[BigBoy91]

58 minutes ago, Fluuschoen said:

Why do you use low (I presume it's either 125 or 250 Hz) polling rate though?

Cheap Anker vertical mouse. 😎 I have a much nicer Corsair mouse, but I keep coming back to this one.

Edited March 29, 2022 by BigBoy91

[BoxY]

Ever since CFT came to dsda-doom I've always used and enjoyed it, mostly because I'm mostly not that interested in glides or other precise movement tricks anyway so it doesn't really hurt me in that area. Without it I'm much more likely to accidentally lose my inputs when I'm trying to chaingun a distant enemy or something which is way more relevant to my type of gameplay. I also don't use shorttics except when necessary (running and routing), in fact I'm excited for more MBF21 releases to come out because it's legal to record in longtics on those and even after many hours of shorttics I still feel like I play better with longtics, or at least a bit more confidently.

[Maribo]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:27 AM, Fluuschoen said:

What's your cm/180°?

Sorry for the pretty late reply, but I just measured a rough 2.5-3.0cm/360°, so halve that.
If you're interested in the hardware/settings details:
Logitech Pro X Superlight set to 1600 dpi.

43 Horizontal, 20 Fine Sensitivity. These numbers are in current DSDA-Doom, if you're using an old version like 0.19.7 then these numbers won't be the same.

[GarrettChan]

5 minutes ago, Maribo said:

43 Horizontal, 20 Fine Sensitivity. These numbers are in current DSDA-Doom, if you're using an old version like 0.19.7 then these numbers won't be the same.

Fine sensitivity is introduced in something like 0.17, and everything after that should be the same number.

 

If someone wants to convert it back to any SDL2 port (like PrBoom+ 2.5.1.5, or old DSDA-Doom), divide this by 1.6, which means 43.2/1.6=27

[Maribo]

2 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Fine sensitivity is introduced in something like 0.17, and everything after that should be the same number.

I was referring to the slider bar for Horizontal sensitivity, which I think changed between 0.19.7 and some version between then and now? There was a conversation about sensitivity in the DSDA server a while ago and I remember aconfusedhuman said the numbers were different when I showed him where 43 was on my screen. Could be human memory error though, I'd have to go compile 0.19.7 to check for myself :P

[Shepardus]

13 hours ago, BoxY said:

Ever since CFT came to dsda-doom I've always used and enjoyed it, mostly because I'm mostly not that interested in glides or other precise movement tricks anyway so it doesn't really hurt me in that area. Without it I'm much more likely to accidentally lose my inputs when I'm trying to chaingun a distant enemy or something which is way more relevant to my type of gameplay. I also don't use shorttics except when necessary (running and routing), in fact I'm excited for more MBF21 releases to come out because it's legal to record in longtics on those and even after many hours of shorttics I still feel like I play better with longtics, or at least a bit more confidently.

Took the words right out of my mouth. My mouse sensitivity is at about 6cm/180°, by the way.

[BaileyTW]

I play with relatively low sensitivity or at least low compared to the absolutely ridiculous sensitivity ports seem to have as their default which I assume is somewhat close to what others consider normal and I've played with -shorttics on almost always all my shortcuts I use to run wads have -shorttics added to em right at the beginning. It's just the way I do things so I haven't found it weird since that's what I got used to. I definitely notice it when I don't have it on and it definitely feels weird in a way I cant describe but oh well.

[Fluuschoen]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:42 AM, Maribo said:

Sorry for the pretty late reply, but I just measured a rough 2.5-3.0cm/360°, so halve that.

 

My goodness..

 

On 3/30/2022 at 5:42 AM, Maribo said:

If you're interested in the hardware/settings details:
Logitech Pro X Superlight set to 1600 dpi.

43 Horizontal, 20 Fine Sensitivity. These numbers are in current DSDA-Doom, if you're using an old version like 0.19.7 then these numbers won't be the same.

Wait, that somehow doesn't add up. I mean I have ~15,7 cm/360° with sens 7|accel off @ 1600 cpi. Did you move the Windows (if you are on Windows at all) slider lower than 6/11?

What keyboard and pad btw?

[Maribo]

I don't use Windows, I run Ubuntu 20.04 LTS w/ XFCE as a DE.

Keyboard is just laptop keyboard (System76 Gazelle [gaze15 model]), mousepad is just a small mousepad I've had for a long time and hasn't worn out.

[PKr]

Hey! Give the latest 0.24.3 a try if you haven't already! Mikeday has found a way to properly interpolate mouse movement so now it's very precise even at lower framerates (<500). You might like this new patch.

 

On a side note about v-sync. The input lag will still be light years behind the quake engine, but give variable refresh rate monitors a go. Basically, if you setup g-sync properly, you can cap fps below your refresh rate in DSDA-Doom, and v-sync won't kick in. You will have all the benefits of synced frames (no screen tearing), while at the same time input lag will be pretty much identical to non-vsynced game (compared to the same fps of course, and not to 1000s). In my opinion variable refresh rate is the best tech of the past decade.

Edited April 1, 2022 by PKr

[BaileyTW]

Currently on a D2all grind so there's a few setups I gotta do that require moving small angles and the last times I've done that I had a different mouse and I could do those setups smoothly and fast, with carry fractional tics off (well I didn't know it was a thing back then but the source ports I was using hadn't implemented it yet) moving those fine angles was fine. This time around I have a new mouse it's a bit heavier and I think I dont know but I think it isn't as sensitive cause it stutters with fine movement. It's fine with general movement but with fine movement I find it skipping angles and taking a lot of movement to coax out a single angle change but the difference between an angle change of 1 and 2 isn't a lot. This lost me a run last night at the zero press on map 17, tenements. I mean I was also tired from work and it was midnight but I could just not get angle changes when I knew I should have been.

 

So I've switched to having carry fractional tics on. Maybe it's just that i know something is different so I'm perceiving any small change as due to having the setting different, but general movement feels different in a bad way. I dont know how to describe it but maybe floaty in a bad way, but getting angle setups is easier than it used to be with my old mouse, so maybe I'll only turn on carry fractional tics for speedruns needing pixel line ups.

Edited April 3, 2022 by BaileyTW

[Fluuschoen]

On 4/1/2022 at 1:08 PM, PKr said:

Hey! Give the latest 0.24.3 a try if you haven't already! Mikeday has found a way to properly interpolate mouse movement so now it's very precise even at lower framerates (<500). You might like this new patch.

For simpler wads, the frame rate is in the multiple thousands here (OpenGL), so haven't really had problems with stuttering, but I already downloaded it. : > I don't know if it's placebo or not yet, but the software renderer feels a bit more responsive than before.

 

On 4/1/2022 at 1:08 PM, PKr said:

On a side note about v-sync. The input lag will still be light years behind the quake engine, but give variable refresh rate monitors a go. Basically, if you setup g-sync properly, you can cap fps below your refresh rate in DSDA-Doom, and v-sync won't kick in. You will have all the benefits of synced frames (no screen tearing), while at the same time input lag will be pretty much identical to non-vsynced game (compared to the same fps of course, and not to 1000s). In my opinion variable refresh rate is the best tech of the past decade.

Got two 144 Hz display (LG 24GM77; no sync of any kind), so I'm not keen on getting a new one until at least on of them dies on me. Now having an NVIDIA VGA, but I plan on getting a Ryzen APU when the 7000 series comes out with the new IGP (something along the line of a Ryzen 7 7700G or so), so G-Sync would be pretty much a dead end. Anyhow, I have precisely zero issues with screen tearing, and if you cap your fps, you automatically limit how responsive the game can be. I was always a max fps/max Hz guy (yeah, well, except in id Tech 2/3 based games, where the physics works properly on fixated three digit values), and it worked out pretty well for me.

 

 

 

On 4/1/2022 at 12:52 AM, Maribo said:

On 4/1/2022 at 12:52 AM, Maribo said:

I don't use Windows, I run Ubuntu 20.04 LTS w/ XFCE as a DE.

Keyboard is just laptop keyboard (System76 Gazelle [gaze15 model]), mousepad is just a small mousepad I've had for a long time and hasn't worn out.

 

Your setup really deserve a nice mouse pad. : > If I were you, I'd go for a medium-size PureTrak Talent (with 6 mm thickness; it has lovely colorful variants and a plain black version as well) or for a small/medium Artisan Zero XSOFT/Artisan Hayate Otsu XSOFT. I doubt that you'd want to go back to random stuff after you tried one of these out (possibly with a set of Corepad/Hyperglide PTFE feet, because Logitech is notorious for the subpar feet on their mice, including the GPXS). : >

 

 

13 hours ago, BaileyTW said:

This time around I have a new mouse it's a bit heavier and I think 

What mouse do you have?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Fluuschoen