Problem with lag

[K_Doom]

Hi guys, I came here to ask a few questions.

Have you ever created a large map and had lag issues in a specific sector?
Well my computer is fine, I've never had any problems with any Doom maps so far, even the gigantic Sunder maps for example. But both in UDB creation and in the game I feel a small lag in the sector, why does this happen and how to solve it?

[DarkIceCyclone]

Hey, is it GZDoom? If so, GZDoom sometimes lags when there are too many particles, (or as Kan3 said, too many sectors and other studd). 

GZDoom especially does not like line defs that are smaller than 1mu. The more linedefs like that you have in the sector, the laggier it becomes. Try to keep the linedef sizes to 2units at bare minimum. That should reduce the lag for most stuff.

Another thing GZDoom doesn't like is slaughter. lot of monsters dieing quickly=dead GZDoom as well. Boom can handle slaughter and slaughtery wads better.

[CoolerDoomeR]

Hi there, if your Source port is GZDoom your like me, my GZDoom is laggy.

But there is a Solution, Turn OpenGL Renderer to True Color or Software renderer, This fix lag on any maps.

 

[Kan3]

I had (and still have a little) in one of my map.

I haven't find any real solution unfortunately, but in my case I bet it's due to the reflective floor + a lot of sectors + lots of things and dynamic lights.

What helped a little was to halve the map things, but I cannot really fix it in any other way.

 

Describe your sector and map, or show it to us. 

[K_Doom]

9 hours ago, Kan3 said:

I had (and still have a little) in one of my map.

I haven't find any real solution unfortunately, but in my case I bet it's due to the reflective floor + a lot of sectors + lots of things and dynamic lights.

What helped a little was to halve the map things, but I cannot really fix it in any other way.

 

Describe your sector and map, or show it to us. 

 

I haven't added any monsters in the sector yet, the only things I've placed differently are bright maps and colored sectors.

 

 

I imagine that when introducing items and monsters the map will really have problems with lag lol
(I use GZDoom 4.7.1)

Edited March 24, 2022 by K_Doom
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[K_Doom]

9 hours ago, DarkIceCyclone said:

Hey, is it GZDoom? If so, GZDoom sometimes lags when there are too many particles, (or as Kan3 said, too many sectors and other studd). 

GZDoom especially does not like line defs that are smaller than 1mu. The more linedefs like that you have in the sector, the laggier it becomes. Try to keep the linedef sizes to 2units at bare minimum. That should reduce the lag for most stuff.

Another thing GZDoom doesn't like is slaughter. lot of monsters dieing quickly=dead GZDoom as well. Boom can handle slaughter and slaughtery wads better.

Thanks for informing, but it's strange because at least in this sector I used very few linedefs smaller than 2 units and I didn't add any monsters.

[K_Doom]

8 hours ago, CoolerDoomeR said:

Hi there, if your Source port is GZDoom your like me, my GZDoom is laggy.

But there is a Solution, Turn OpenGL Renderer to True Color or Software renderer, This fix lag on any maps.

 

It really works, but unfortunately I'm going to lose my beautiful brightmaps and I'm going to replace it with oldschool graphics. ;-;

[DarkIceCyclone]

mind posting the wad file? only thing i can think of is animations, but if that's out of the question, then it's most likely source port issue

[K_Doom]

 

37 minutes ago, DarkIceCyclone said:

mind posting the wad file? only thing i can think of is animations, but if that's out of the question, then it's most likely source port issue

Here it is, don't mind the mess as it's my first map and it's still incomplete hehe.

The sector with the lag problem is the same one I sent the image above.

 

plutsuckerOficial.rar

 

Use Plutonia and GZDoom

 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by K_Doom
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[DarkIceCyclone]

1) Please, don't worry. I'm a newbie in map making and your map is coming along way better.

2) i have no issues with lag, tested on multiple different settings, including a couple of suicides. I had no lags what so ever in the whole map, including in the aforementioned sector.

As for the possible cause I could think of only one thing: Dynamic lights. Now I'm not sure how doom engine works or source ports for that matter, but Lazygamer did warn in his tutorial, that dynamic lights can cause performance hits on lower end systems.

The only other possible cause is the amount of sectors in the map. But I am not sure that's the cause either. 

 

 

 

Another possibility is some triggers that I didn't trigger. Since I didn't play the map, just run to the problem spot with cheats, i didn't have any issues at all, even after disabling cheats. 

I also upped my graphics and had no issues. I thought animations could be an issue, but they are not. So I am at a loss. I'm going to post my video here, if that's okay with you @K_Doom

 

Edit: This only leaves one issue: Hardware, more likely either CPU or GPU. I noticed my game always lags when it's low on proccessing power thanks to virtual machine being turned on. That's the only way I can make any map lag, outside of some odd sector issues, that are usually caused by animated textures. I didn't see any in that room.

The only other issue is a trigger I probably missed., that is supposed to activate when entering that room the proper way, not with IDCLIP

Edit 2: All this time I also used the wrong Iwad, I used DOOM II Iwad instead of plutonia.

Just ran it in Plutonia. Same results. No lags, no issues whatsoever. 

 

Display settings: Hardware Renderer, Dark

Edited March 25, 2022 by DarkIceCyclone

[K_Doom]

16 minutes ago, DarkIceCyclone said:

1) Please, don't worry. I'm a newbie in map making and your map is coming along way better.

2) i have no issues with lag, tested on multiple different settings, including a couple of suicides. I had no lags what so ever in the whole map, including in the aforementioned sector.

As for the possible cause I could think of only one thing: Dynamic lights. Now I'm not sure how doom engine works or source ports for that matter, but Lazygamer did warn in his tutorial, that dynamic lights can cause performance hits on lower end systems.

The only other possible cause is the amount of sectors in the map. But I am not sure that's the cause either. 

 

 

 

Another possibility is some triggers that I didn't trigger. Since I didn't play the map, just run to the problem spot with cheats, i didn't have any issues at all, even after disabling cheats. 

I also upped my graphics and had no issues. I thought animations could be an issue, but they are not. So I am at a loss. I'm going to post my video here, if that's okay with you @K_Doom

 

Edit: This only leaves one issue: Hardware, more likely either CPU or GPU. I noticed my game always lags when it's low on proccessing power thanks to virtual machine being turned on. That's the only way I can make any map lag, outside of some odd sector issues, that are usually caused by animated textures. I didn't see any in that room.

Edit 2: All this time I also used the wrong Iwad, I used DOOM II Iwad instead of plutonia.

Just ran it in Plutonia. Same results. No lags, no issues whatsoever. 

 

Very strange, I believed that a computer with Ryzen 3 3200G and 16 gigs of ram was enough to run Doom, but it seems that the problem is with GZDoom in question, I should have made the map in Boom format, maybe it would have avoided the problem...

About the video: of course you can post it, I want to see how it turned out

[DarkIceCyclone]

Not much to see, I didn't play the map itself.

 

Hmm, your specs means that it's not a hardware problem. So trigger or source port. Since I don't know the map it will take me a while before I can find something. Maybe someone else is quicker. But now that everything else is ruled out, only 2 things left are sourceport (which doesn't seem to be an issue, i have way weaker hardware with only 4gb of ram and Intel Core 5 CPU/NVIDIA Graphics) or a trigger. Since I didn't test the map through proper gameplay, i may have missed a trigger or 2.

 

Heres the video @K_Doom

 

 

Edit: I did notice the updated wad(or rather pk3) file and had same results on it when testing, so no recording of that one.

Edited March 25, 2022 by DarkIceCyclone

[K_Doom]

18 minutes ago, DarkIceCyclone said:

Not much to see, I didn't play the map itself.

 

Hmm, your specs means that it's not a hardware problem. So trigger or source port. Since I don't know the map it will take me a while before I can find something. Maybe someone else is quicker. But now that everything else is ruled out, only 2 things left are sourceport (which doesn't seem to be an issue, i have way weaker hardware with only 4gb of ram and Intel Core 5 CPU/NVIDIA Graphics) or a trigger. Since I didn't test the map through proper gameplay, i may have missed a trigger or 2.

 

Heres the video @K_Doom

 

 

 

Okay, as long as people who play wad don't have lag issues, I don't think it's a big problem. I had loaded the outdated map, the current one is pk3 just above that fixes the sprites with error (wall torches). You recorded a video on youtube, I feel grateful lol

Edited March 25, 2022 by K_Doom
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[K_Doom]

@DarkIceCyclone Can I send the map to you when I'm done?

[CoolerDoomeR]

6 hours ago, K_Doom said:

It really works, but unfortunately I'm going to lose my beautiful brightmaps and I'm going to replace it with oldschool graphics. ;-;

Yeah, me too.

I can't play beautiful maps like Elementalism or maps that need OpenGL renderer, we can just play Boom-compatible or Vanilla Compatible maps.

[K_Doom]

18 minutes ago, CoolerDoomeR said:

Yeah, me too.

I can't play beautiful maps like Elementalism or maps that need OpenGL renderer, we can just play Boom-compatible or Vanilla Compatible maps.

This is sad, luckily it's almost imperceptible lag. I think I ended up getting addicted to performance and I noticed it a lot, luckily it seems that this problem doesn't appear on test machines, I'll make sure of that when I finish the map and make it available for testing.

[DarkIceCyclone]

@K_Doom I managed to get the editing lag on Slade editor once I oepned up the map from the PK3 file. I can tell 2 things now from this:

1) It's not sourceport related.

2) It's not architecture related.

 

I started checking 3D floors, and outside of one linedef being used for multiple sectors, I did not find any other issues, so I doubt that's the case.

Looking at architexture (opened the wad without texture files) I did not manage to produce any lag in UDB or GZDoom. However, opening the PK3 file in GZDoom, with virtual machine on to drain my computers resources, I did manage to encounter a lagspike, but not the constant small lag described and not in that room. 

When I turned off the virtual machine, the lag was gone, as expected

Only constant lag I did encounter was in Slade 3

Game Compatibility settings is set to Standard.

However, one thing I did notice, the room gave me the perception that the lag was there, while in reality it was not (Seen by both framerate and by the fact that all the guns fired at normal speed without any delay in sound, effect, impact or going out of bounds(sky). When I used IDBEHOLDL cheat to see the texture, it somewhat made sense. The floor texture has these tiny ridges in them and they move at certain speed, when both running and moving. It may cause the perception of player moving slower than he actually is.
I think the issue may be somewhere in the resource files or texturing proccess. It is just my closest guess.

 

Also: stealth cacodemons...errm...not sure about that.

 

As for the testing, you can send it to me while it is a work in progress as well. However once the map get's too difficult for me, I will tell you.

Also, at the bloodfall, you can remove the arrow and make a more... say, a blood trail leading there from all the other directions of the room.

Edited March 25, 2022 by DarkIceCyclone

[K_Doom]

10 hours ago, DarkIceCyclone said:

@K_Doom I managed to get the editing lag on Slade editor once I oepned up the map from the PK3 file. I can tell 2 things now from this:

1) It's not sourceport related.

2) It's not architecture related.

 

I started checking 3D floors, and outside of one linedef being used for multiple sectors, I did not find any other issues, so I doubt that's the case.

Looking at architexture (opened the wad without texture files) I did not manage to produce any lag in UDB or GZDoom. However, opening the PK3 file in GZDoom, with virtual machine on to drain my computers resources, I did manage to encounter a lagspike, but not the constant small lag described and not in that room. 

When I turned off the virtual machine, the lag was gone, as expected

Only constant lag I did encounter was in Slade 3

Game Compatibility settings is set to Standard.

However, one thing I did notice, the room gave me the perception that the lag was there, while in reality it was not (Seen by both framerate and by the fact that all the guns fired at normal speed without any delay in sound, effect, impact or going out of bounds(sky). When I used IDBEHOLDL cheat to see the texture, it somewhat made sense. The floor texture has these tiny ridges in them and they move at certain speed, when both running and moving. It may cause the perception of player moving slower than he actually is.
I think the issue may be somewhere in the resource files or texturing proccess. It is just my closest guess.

 

Also: stealth cacodemons...errm...not sure about that.

 

As for the testing, you can send it to me while it is a work in progress as well. However once the map get's too difficult for me, I will tell you.

Also, at the bloodfall, you can remove the arrow and make a more... say, a blood trail leading there from all the other directions of the room.

Taking into account all the tests described in the text you did, and also the "floor with tiny ridges" part, this all seems pretty mysterious. Could you tell me which sector

this floor is in?

 

As for the textures they really are the cause of the lag in Slade3, this I already knew because when I wanted more textures besides Plutonia I added all the textures from wad 32in24-15_tex_v2 and this caused a mess in the TEXTURE1 files and that's why I created the TEXTURE2 I copied and pasted all the new texture definitions there. The textures are Doom Graphics so they can't be optimized to maybe lessen the lag.

 

In my defense about stealth cacodemons I only put one and it was as a test, but I left it because I liked its treacherous nature lol

 

Okay, I'll be updating the map little by little, putting textures and arranging them in the right way takes a long time of the day. I'm close to finishing it, just need to finish the blue chip sector, the secret sector, and the final sector. After that I'll fix details like brightmaps.

 

I don't understand, the whole floor is blood, so how would i make a trail for the exits stand out amidst the blood floor? Maybe making it very clear on the map?

Edited March 25, 2022 by K_Doom
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[ketmar]

what is the reason to have several duplicates of point lights and torches for many of them? you have REALY EXCESSIVE number of dynamic lights there, because each torch emits light by default, and you also put a flickering point light on top of it, and then duplicated those two times more. for almost each torch (at least on that big slope).

Edited March 25, 2022 by ketmar

[K_Doom]

2 hours ago, ketmar said:

what is the reason to have several duplicates of point lights and torches for many of them? you have REALY EXCESSIVE number of dynamic lights there, because each torch emits light by default, and you also put a flickering point light on top of it, and then duplicated those two times more. for almost each torch (at least on that big slope).

Normal torches emit a very weak light, I found it more interesting if the light was stronger and with greater contrast, I could create a new torch with a different GLDEFS to change the color of the light but I haven't done it yet, I think it's a good option. But the part where I felt a bit of a delay wasn't in the hallways with torches, so I don't think that's it.

Edited March 26, 2022 by K_Doom
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[ketmar]

still, cleaning it up, and creating new GLDEFS light definitions will greatly help people with weaker GPUs.

 

as i can't see the image with a problematic sector, i had to guess, and that's what immediately got my attention, 'cause it looks like some copy-paste bug.

[K_Doom]

6 minutes ago, ketmar said:

still, cleaning it up, and creating new GLDEFS light definitions will greatly help people with weaker GPUs.

 

as i can't see the image with a problematic sector, i had to guess, and that's what immediately got my attention, 'cause it looks like some copy-paste bug.

Now that you said I'm going to create a new torch, I just wanted to know what is the exact radius of the torch's primary and secondary brightness, it must be flicker light too...

[DarkIceCyclone]

@K_Doom I belive it was the ladder i climbed, look at the video right after i climbed the ladder

[K_Doom]

8 minutes ago, DarkIceCyclone said:

@K_Doom I belive it was the ladder i climbed, look at the video right after i climbed the ladder

Are you talking about the "vertical ladder"?

[DarkIceCyclone]

4 minutes ago, K_Doom said:

Are you talking about the "vertical ladder"?

Yes

[K_Doom]

7 minutes ago, DarkIceCyclone said:

Yes

 Ah yes I understand, for some reason the player to climb each step increases the speed until he jumps on the last one. But I don't know another way to create "vertical stairs" in Doom so I did it that way.

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by K_Doom
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[K_Doom]

@ketmar Do you know if there is any way to delete multiple things?

[ketmar]

3 minutes ago, K_Doom said:

Do you know if there is any way to delete multiple things?

sorry, i don't know about any automatic way to do that. but i'm not using UDB, so don't take my answer as The Final Truth. ;-)

[boris]

18 hours ago, K_Doom said:

@ketmar Do you know if there is any way to delete multiple things?

 

I'm not sure what you want to do, but anything automated can be done with UDBScript.

[ketmar]

35 minutes ago, boris said:

I'm not sure what you want to do

basically, there are 3 copies of exactly the same things on exactly the same spots, repeated many times for different thing locations. manual cleanup may take ages.

[K_Doom]

2 hours ago, ketmar said:

basically, there are 3 copies of exactly the same things on exactly the same spots, repeated many times for different thing locations. manual cleanup may take ages.

I found a things filter, this filter helps me to select all things of the same type. Very useful. Although there is still lag in that specific sector, at least now I don't use as many lights, making the map better for those who play.