Is UV Max for babies?

[sandwedge]

Haha sorry for the clickbait title, but I thought it was funny.  What I actually mean is, isn't it more impressive to beat levels with all kills but finding zero secrets?  I was thinking about this while playing map 13 of micro slaughter project, where there's 1,000 monsters and I beat it without finding any secrets.  I was disappointed I didn't UV max, but if anything it should feel better than finding your extra mega armours and whatnot.  This of course doesn't apply when the secrets are their own hard fights, of course.  So anyway, should there be a category for... not UV max, but how about... UV half?  UV half and half?  Like a nice coffee cream?  Is there already a category like that?  I don't really do speedrunning.  So is this a good idea... or a GREAT idea?  Leave your comments and flames below.

 

edit: in case someone takes this the wrong way, I don't actually think anyone is a baby lol.  I try to UV max myself, and people should play doom the way they like! was just something I was thinking about.

Edited April 12, 2022 by sandwedge
clarity

[GarrettChan]

I'm a baby.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

13 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

isn't it more impressive to beat levels with all kills but finding zero secrets?

For me, getting all from both is better, but if I had to choose, I'd say yes, it's better to leave with 100% kills and 0% secrets.

15 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

Is there already a category like that? 

Sort of, there's a category called UV-Tyson, in this category you have to leave a level with all kills (excluding Lost souls) using only the fist, chainsaw or pistol. AFAIK you don't have to collect all secrets.

 

And the title...

Spoiler

Is NM-100s for babies? ;-)

 

[Dubbag]

I mean if a baby is playing Doom then I'm already proud of them no matter what difficulty it is

Edited April 12, 2022 by Dub Bag

[sandwedge]

yeah I mean there's Baby Einstein, maybe there should be Baby Doom UV Max.  Just play decino videos into your pregnant womb

[Dubbag]

2 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

yeah I mean there's Baby Einstein, maybe there should be Baby Doom UV Max.  Just play decino videos into your pregnant womb

be careful what you wish for...

[Salmon]

When testing my own maps, my most typical run is to do 100% kills and 0% secrets to make sure the secrets aren't necessary for map completion.  That said, once all the monsters are dead I'll often double back from the exit to pick up the secrets.  This has the added benefit of reminding to make sure that it's easy to re-explore the map from the exit area.  That's about the only time I aim not to get secrets intentionally--in other people's maps it's because I'm stupid and can't find them.

 

My secrets tend to be purely beneficial, though.  Secret fights can make getting all secrets harder than not doing so.

[sandwedge]

17 minutes ago, Salmon said:

When testing my own maps, my most typical run is to do 100% kills and 0% secrets to make sure the secrets aren't necessary for map completion.  That said, once all the monsters are dead I'll often double back from the exit to pick up the secrets.  This has the added benefit of reminding to make sure that it's easy to re-explore the map from the exit area.  That's about the only time I aim not to get secrets intentionally--in other people's maps it's because I'm stupid and can't find them.

 

My secrets tend to be purely beneficial, though.  Secret fights can make getting all secrets harder than not doing so.

 

Yeah this actually reminds me that I've been playing some maps recently with secret BFGs where if I don't find it, I just have a miserable experience.  The plasma rifle and rocket launcher are not gonna be able to deal with certain threats well, like my favourite encounter, the wall o' revenants with the archvile in the back.  I guess you have to make a map beatable, but sometimes things are just gonna be annoying as hell without the BFG.  That's one reason I wouldn't run this category lol.  Which might be part of the issue, it's more fun to UV max for sure.

[Shepardus]

To me the point of getting all secrets in a UV Max run isn't that it's more "impressive," it's because... well... because they're there, I guess, and it'd be a shame not to showcase them. There are plenty of ways to make your run "impressive" if that's what you're going for, like optimizing for a good time or doing a Pacifist or Tyson run.

[sandwedge]

1 minute ago, Shepardus said:

To me the point of getting all secrets in a UV Max run isn't that it's more "impressive," it's because... well... because they're there, I guess, and it'd be a shame not to showcase them. There are plenty of ways to make your run "impressive" if that's what you're going for, like optimizing for a good time or doing a Pacifist or Tyson run.

 

Yeah that's completely fair, I think that seems to be the consensus is it would be redundant and it's not really about having the most impressive run.  Of course I don't actually think anyone is a baby for doing it this way, I try to UV max when I can.  However I thought maybe a 0% secret run would provide something that the other sort of gimmick runs wouldn't, since it doesn't change the nature of the map and difficulty too much, but it often does change the nature of some of the fights.  Like not grabbing a secret BFG on certain maps, for example.  Yeah the completionist aspect is also the factor if you're showing a level off. 

[Shepardus]

Oh yeah, I should mention, 0% secrets is sometimes referred to as "Anti-Sherlock." I'm not sure if people combine it with max though.

[Nikku4211]

How would you get 100% kills and 0% secrets in a map where some enemies are hidden deep in secret areas and can't be reached without getting in the secret sectors?

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

12 minutes ago, Nikku4211 said:

How would you get 100% kills and 0% secrets in a map where some enemies are hidden deep in secret areas and can't be reached without getting in the secret sectors?

Simply type TNTEM :-)

[Zulk RS]

1 hour ago, Nikku4211 said:

How would you get 100% kills and 0% secrets in a map where some enemies are hidden deep in secret areas and can't be reached without getting in the secret sectors?

 

Maybe it's less about 100% kills and 0% secrets and more 100% kills minimal secrets? That would mean you have to find the secrets that have enemies in it but you skip any secrets that don't contribute to the 100% kills.

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 hours ago, sandwedge said:

Haha sorry for the clickbait title, but I thought it was funny.

And I thought it wasn't...

 

3 hours ago, sandwedge said:

What I actually mean is, isn't it more impressive to beat levels with all kills but finding zero secrets?

This isn't necessarily the case anyhow. Some maps have entire secret sections in them, in the case of maps like for example Miasma with optional (because secret) fights that are way more difficult than the bare minimum required to just exit the map - and Miasma isn't an anomaly in that regard, for that matter... You could of course argue that, in the case of a map where killing everything requires finding some - but perhaps not all - secrets the case I'm making doesn't quite apply as much as it would for example when you look at a map where the only thing hidden away is additional firepower... Despite that, knowing where all the secrets are, and how to get to them, and building a route through a map around when and where you want to grab what to achieve the fastest possible UVmax is still an expression of skill...

 

If you wanted for there to be a category that goes for 100% kills exclusively, then I suggest you start running it yourself, and see if it catches on...

[rzh]

10 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

 

Maybe it's less about 100% kills and 0% secrets and more 100% kills minimal secrets? That would mean you have to find the secrets that have enemies in it but you skip any secrets that don't contribute to the 100% kills.

How about this: you can tag the secret sector, but unless it's unavoidable to pick it up, all additional health/ ammo/ firepower/ armor/ power-ups are out of bounds for you. All secrets that don't contain enemies are out of bounds.

For example, in MAP01 you can enter the outside area, but cannot pick up the shotgun to deal with the imps.

[Pseudonaut]

In the map you're talking about, once you know where everything is and have a good route (it's a different story when playing for the first time), the secrets don't even matter that much. You can immediately escape the first big fight, grab the non-secret BFG and megasphere, escape the chamber while the first and second wave of enemies spawn in and probably start killing each other, then safely murder the enemies outside. The rest is just cleaning up. Almost identical to the easiest UV-Max route. I suppose the secret megasphere adds some comfort toward the end.

 

I imagine there are maps where secret avoidance makes 100% kills interesting in a way that isn't achieved in the other categories (e.g. UV-Speed, pacifist), but I'm not sure which ones.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Pseudonaut

[Thelokk]

100% kills, 100% items, 100% secrets. 

 

It's the only way.

[sandwedge]

35 minutes ago, Pseudonaut said:

In the map you're talking about, once you know where everything is and have a good route (it's a different story when playing for the first time), the secrets don't even matter that much. You can immediately escape the first big fight, grab the non-secret BFG and megasphere, escape the chamber while the first and second wave of enemies spawn in and probably start killing each other, then safely murder the enemies outside. The rest is just cleaning up. Almost identical to the easiest UV-Max route. I suppose the secret megasphere adds some comfort toward the end.

 

I imagine there are maps where secret avoidance makes 100% kills interesting in a way that isn't achieved in the other categories (e.g. UV-Speed, pacifist), but I'm not sure which ones.

 

Yeah that map isn't the best example, just what made me think about it.  I don't even know what the secrets had.  I pretty much did the fight the same way, and it felt like I was cheesing it but I guess if it's there for you, why not.  Maps that it made more sense to me on was Map 6 Slaughter Factory, where you wouldn't get the BFG at all so you need to deal with the last fight without it.  It does make it tougher and different, for me at least.  Also Map 12 Crossroads of Destruction.  Romero's One Humanity comes to mind as I didn't get the BFG the first time through, which made plasma rifling the two cyberdemons actually pretty hard since invincibility runs out.  Basically maps where you don't get a high tier weapon at all if you don't find the secret.  And of course you have less health/armor top ups and ammo for other maps which could promote different strategies.  I also know that some maps are dramatically easier when you find all the secrets, but I don't have any like classic maps off the top of my head, just some random ones where say you get a BFG and it trivializes the rest of the map.  However one knock against this is honestly the plasma rifle can be pretty boring/annoying to use instead of the BFG where it doesn't make things that much harder just... longer, like killing cyberdemons.

 

54 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If you wanted for there to be a category that goes for 100% kills exclusively, then I suggest you start running it yourself, and see if it catches on...

 

Absolutely, though I'm pretty sure if it was a great idea it would be done already.  So it's probably not.  Maybe on a few maps out there it's at least interesting.  I'm relatively new to the doom community so I was honestly just curious what people thought.  Probably shouldn't have used that title since it was sarcastic which doesn't always come across in text, but I don't wanna change it now because all the posts won't make sense!  Still, thanks for your thoughtful response!

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

Absolutely, though I'm pretty sure if it was a great idea it would be done already.  So it's probably not.

No good idea in history would have been realized if everybody thought that somebody else already tried to no avail...

[Pseudonaut]

8 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

 

Yeah that map isn't the best example, just what made me think about it.  I don't even know what the secrets had.  I pretty much did the fight the same way, and it felt like I was cheesing it but I guess if it's there for you, why not.  Maps that it made more sense to me on was Map 6 Slaughter Factory, where you wouldn't get the BFG at all so you need to deal with the last fight without it.  It does make it tougher and different, for me at least.  Also Map 12 Crossroads of Destruction.

 

You're right, those maps are harder and different without secrets. I guess the idea of running them secretless just doesn't sound as fun to me.

[MFG38]

If a "100% kills, 0% secrets" category was a thing, I think it could be called UV-100K. Like NM-100S but on UV and with a K (standing for "kills") instead of an S (standing for "secrets").

 

As has been pointed out, though, going for 0% secrets and 100% kills is borderline impossible in certain scenarios. Particularly in maps with secret enemy encounters or secrets placed in areas that practically don't qualify as secrets, such as the literal starting area of a map.

[sandwedge]

18 minutes ago, Pseudonaut said:

 

You're right, those maps are harder and different without secrets. I guess the idea of running them secretless just doesn't sound as fun to me.

 

Haha yeah that's the problem.  Using the plasma rifle instead kinda sucks sometimes.  And the examples I could remember are basically that.

 

11 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

If a "100% kills, 0% secrets" category was a thing, I think it could be called UV-100K. Like NM-100S but on UV and with a K (standing for "kills") instead of an S (standing for "secrets").

 

As has been pointed out, though, going for 0% secrets and 100% kills is borderline impossible in certain scenarios. Particularly in maps with secret enemy encounters or secrets placed in areas that practically don't qualify as secrets, such as the literal starting area of a map.

 

Someone earlier mentioned "Anti-Sherlock" runs and I thought that was a funny label for it.  Yeah for sure lots of maps couldn't be done strictly with 0% secrets and 100% kills, though I feel like the vast majority of maps I play would work.  For those cases you'd have to not count kills in secret areas, nor count mandatory secrets, kinda like how impossible secrets in original doom aren't counted in UV max.  Though this only adds to the contrivance of it, so probably not great for an entire category.

[Nine Inch Heels]

26 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

Someone earlier mentioned "Anti-Sherlock" runs and I thought that was a funny label for it.  Yeah for sure lots of maps couldn't be done strictly with 0% secrets and 100% kills, though I feel like the vast majority of maps I play would work.  For those cases you'd have to not count kills in secret areas, nor count mandatory secrets, kinda like how impossible secrets in original doom aren't counted in UV max.  Though this only adds to the contrivance of it, so probably not great for an entire category.

A word of advice: Any category you may or may not want to see should have rules that are as straightforward as possible. There used to be a category called something like "Min-Max-Health", where you would get a score based on your total health when you exit the map, but with the stipulation that you can only increase your score until you took the first instance of damage, from which point onwards you couldn't raise your score beyond what you had after the very moment you took damage for the first time - and if you took even more, your "score-cap" would lower accordingly.... This category went the way of the dodo, because, aside of the fact that it doesn't seem particularly attractive to most runners, the rules were too complicated, or at least they were complicated enough to deter people whose English wasn't up to the task of parsing the respective rules accurately...

 

If you want a category that does not care about secrets, just make it about 100% kills exclusively, and let people who are interested find the maps where they think that running the category is enough of a difference to a UVmax that the distinction makes sense. The moment you get into things like "how many secrets can be avoided, and how many monsters are in those secret areas, and how should the kill-tally look at the end of the run according to the numbers in the editor?" your category is going to die the instance it starts breathing oxygen...

Edited April 12, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[Shepardus]

I think it's fine if certain categories aren't possible on every map. There are many wads people run and many categories, and many combinations of the two that simply aren't possible. Figuring out which ones are possible is part of the fun; sometimes we think something isn't possible until someone comes up with a clever new trick, and it's cool when that happens. Sometimes it's truly impossible, but that's not necessarily a problem either, as there are more than enough fish in the sea, so to speak.

[sandwedge]

1 minute ago, Shepardus said:

I think it's fine if certain categories aren't possible on every map. There are many wads people run and many categories, and many combinations of the two that simply aren't possible. Figuring out which ones are possible is part of the fun; sometimes we think something isn't possible until someone comes up with a clever new trick, and it's cool when that happens. Sometimes it's truly impossible, but that's not necessarily a problem either, as there are more than enough fish in the sea, so to speak.

 

Ah yeah that's a good point, since pacifict and tyson runs aren't possible on everything.  So it would make sense to just choose the maps where it works.  Which is definitely a lot of maps, most of the ones I seem to play, since most often secrets are just items tucked away.  And mandatory secret areas are pretty rare, imo doesn't even make sense unless it's for giggles.

[ImproversGaming]

I guess it depends on who you are trying to impress. As with most things this will be very subjective.

If you personally enjoy it more focussing on 100% kills or feel you have accomplished more that way then go for it. However, we all have different flavors of what works best for us so the most *impressive* run for one person may not be for another.

Personally, I enjoy finding secrets though I will sometimes leave powerups behind if I feel they are too generous (but I would return if I mess up).

[thiccyosh]

Goo goo gaa gaa

 

(That is a yes if you ask it like this)

[DynamiteKaitorn]

Why not try HMP-Max? :3

[CoolerDoomeR]

Uh, the difficulty of all games is a personal choice, but i like UV-Max too and in some maps i play with hurt me plenty if its hard.