Is UV Max for babies?

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 minute ago, DynamiteKaitorn said:

Why not try HMP-Max? :3

That already exists as a niche category that was listed in "other" thus far because it rarely sees any demos at all...

[sandwedge]

2 minutes ago, thiccyosh said:

Goo goo gaa gaa

 

(That is a yes if you ask it like this)

 

lol now you're making me think there needs to be a doom for babies mod.  Like maybe you shoot pacifiers at teddy bears and they go to sleep, noah's ark 3D style.  Pick up bottles of milk for health, diapers for armour.  Rattler instead of fists.  Gosh darn it the nation's youth need to start getting into classic shooters earlier!

 

1 minute ago, DynamiteKaitorn said:

Why not try HMP-Max? :3

 

Truly, real Doomers play HMP Max with 100% items.  Not everyone has what it takes to be elite, though.

[Zulk RS]

3 hours ago, rzh said:

How about this: you can tag the secret sector, but unless it's unavoidable to pick it up, all additional health/ ammo/ firepower/ armor/ power-ups are out of bounds for you. All secrets that don't contain enemies are out of bounds.

For example, in MAP01 you can enter the outside area, but cannot pick up the shotgun to deal with the imps.

That just sounds to me like it adds unnecessary complexity. I was just thinking of keeping this simple:

 

Goal: 100% kills - keep Secret% as low as possible.

These secrets have no monsters and goodies in it? Don't tag it.
These secrets have monsters in it? Get in there, tag it, kill the monsters and help yourself to the goodies.

This secret has no monsters but is unavoidable? Tag it but if someone finds some way to glitch past that secret and beat the level with 100% kills, they've "beaten" your run even if it took them more time to do it.

 

Now that I think about it, I think there's something like that in the Ocarina of Time Speedrunning but I'm not too familiar with it because I'm not too familiar with speedurnning as a whole.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Zulk RS
clarification.

[sandwedge]

7 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

That just sounds to me like it adds unnecessary complexity. I was just thinking of keeping this simple:

 

Goal: 100% kills - keep Secret% as low as possible.

These secrets have no monsters and goodies in it? Don't tag it.
These secrets have monsters in it? Get in there, tag it, kill the monsters and help yourself to the goodies.

This secret has no monsters but is unavoidable? Tag it but if someone finds some way to glitch past that secret and beat the level with 100% kills, they've "beaten" your run even if it took them more time to do it.

 

Now that I think about it, I think there's something like that in the Ocarina of Time Speedrunning but I'm not too familiar with it because I'm not too familiar with speedurnning as a whole.

 

Yeah that seems straightforward to me, but I'm sure there are maps out there where it would get weird.  You could always just avoid the maps where it doesn't work in a pure sense.

 

Yeah that's interesting that other games could have this idea.  I think it's pretty rare though.  Most obvious I can think of is something like Super Mario Brothers, doing a run without any secret exits.  Which is a bit different since you skip like most of the game with that.

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

That just sounds to me like it adds unnecessary complexity. I was just thinking of keeping this simple:

 

Goal: 100% kills - keep Secret% as low as possible.

These secrets have no monsters and goodies in it? Don't tag it.
These secrets have monsters in it? Get in there, tag it, kill the monsters and help yourself to the goodies.

This secret has no monsters but is unavoidable? Tag it but if someone finds some way to glitch past that secret and beat the level with 100% kills, they've "beaten" your run even if it took them more time to do it.

This is already way too complicated to make the category interesting to anybody...

 

"Exit the map with 100% kills (including arch vile resurrections) as fast as possible" is all that is required.

 

That way, runners can choose which secrets to grab, and how many of them, and which ones to avoid - that's how people can plan their routes around secrets they deem "profitable" as long as they don't get 100% secrets, in which case it would be a UVmax anyway... The moment you place a limit on how many secrets should be "tagged" at most (as long as it's not all of them) - even if the limit is dynamic - you poison the well, because then people need to scour the map in the builder, and check if anything that spawns in a secret somewhere would otherwise spawn elsewhere under certain conditions. In addition to that, a perfectly fine run would be pushed off the board not because it wasn't the fastest, but solely because someone glitched their way around a secret... Having to crack open anything in the builder just to see if it is at least theoretically possible to use "technology" somewhere is a hurdle not everybody will want to take when they could just UVmax the damn thing instead. By the same token, if somebody finds a way to glitch their way past a secret, but they can't pull it off while somebody else might be able to, then there's a chance they're not even gonna try, because they know that their route could be beaten from out of nowhere - even by a slower (and possibly overall "worse") run...

 

You need to consider that a new category like this needs to compete with UVmax and UVspeed - the most common categories - and the rules for either category fit into one single sentence. You might think that's an arbitrary criterium, but the history of doom speedruns (the death of the MMH-category for example) shows that simplicity makes a real difference when it comes to rules.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[ReaperAA]

Agreed with Nine Inch Heels. If there is to be a UV-100K category, it should be simple like getting 100% kills asap and that's it. All other existing (and thriving) categories are simple.

 

Now that I think about it, I feel that there should be also be an ITYTD-speed category. This may be useful for maps that don't have any non-nomo or non-TAS demos (think Okuplok's map)

 

[Maribo]

3 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

Now that I think about it, I feel that there should be also be an ITYTD-speed category. This may be useful for maps that don't have any non-nomo or non-TAS demos (think Okuplok's map)

ITYTD Speed (and max, pacifist, etc) are allowed, they just go in Other, like NIH said about HMP-Max, because of their rarity. The tables would be a total mess if all difficulties of all categories were listed like the UV and NM ones, so it's better off like that.

[7Mahonin]

Believe it or not, there is such a thing as not playing on UV-Max, it’s just simply known as playing the game on UV and completing the game with whatever stat ratios you get in the end. It’s practically unheard of, but some people have been doing this for decades while the masses appear totally oblivious to this mode of playing the game and most believe it to be a total myth.

Edited April 12, 2022 by 7Mahonin

[Jacek Bourne]

I like playing UVMax and recording UVMax runs because it gives the most comprehensive and complete run of a map that you can get. It may not be more difficult yet you will experience everything. If there are secret fights and those are very difficult then it will be harder UVMax than 100% kills no secrets. Case in point, Sunlust map28.

[sandwedge]

5 hours ago, 7Mahonin said:

Believe it or not, there is such a thing as not playing on UV-Max, it’s just simply known as playing the game on UV and completing the game with whatever stat ratios you get in the end. It’s practically unheard of, but some people have been doing this for decades while the masses appear totally oblivious to this mode of playing the game and most believe it to be a total myth.

 

Haha I think most people do this when they play through the first time or first few times, I certainly do.  Personally I don't care that much about finding all secrets when I'm done with a map the first time, especially since I'm not playing continuous.  I will try to get all kills if I'm close, but if they're in a secret I don't care.  I'm more talking about trying to cement a good practiced run, perhaps for a speedrun category or video or something.  There I I thought it was an interesting idea.  If I get to the point where I'm submitting demos or speedruns or something I would consider it if the map makes 0% secrets more interesting.

 

3 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

I like playing UVMax and recording UVMax runs because it gives the most comprehensive and complete run of a map that you can get. It may not be more difficult yet you will experience everything. If there are secret fights and those are very difficult then it will be harder UVMax than 100% kills no secrets. Case in point, Sunlust map28.

 

Yeah that's absolutely a knock against the idea, people want to have the complete experience, no doubt about it.  It would definitely be a niche idea.

[Nikku4211]

16 hours ago, MFG38 said:

If a "100% kills, 0% secrets" category was a thing, I think it could be called UV-100K. Like NM-100S but on UV and with a K (standing for "kills") instead of an S (standing for "secrets").

 

But then it wouldn't be 0% secrets. It would be '100% kills, whatever% secrets'.

 

I do agree that simple categories are more likely to survive over complicated categories that require you to read a whole essay to find out what they are supposed to be.

16 hours ago, MFG38 said:

As has been pointed out, though, going for 0% secrets and 100% kills is borderline impossible in certain scenarios. Particularly in maps with secret enemy encounters or secrets placed in areas that practically don't qualify as secrets, such as the literal starting area of a map.

This message has been brought to you by SLIGE.

[sandwedge]

54 minutes ago, Nikku4211 said:

I do agree that simple categories are more likely to survive over complicated categories that require you to read a whole essay to find out what they are supposed to be.

 

Yeah totally, Nine Inch Heels tried to explain that min max health thing and I couldn't make heads or tails of it, lol.  What a weird concept.

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 hours ago, sandwedge said:

 

Yeah totally, Nine Inch Heels tried to explain that min max health thing and I couldn't make heads or tails of it, lol.  What a weird concept.

The concept isn't that weird, actually...

 

There is a "subcategory" called "reality" where, in order for a run to qualify, you need to avoid any and all damage. If you managed to pull that off, any run you recorded, be it UVspeed, or UVmax, would get the "also reality" check-mark on the archives. Aside of being somewhat difficult to achieve on maps with hitscanners, there was also the problem that some maps expose the player to hurt floors, but without providing a rad suit, in order to put them on a timer of sorts, so reality wasn't a category that could fit maps like that under its umbrella...

 

Enter MMH, where, instead of getting disqualified the first instance you took damage, you would get a score based on a set of rules, which are not necessarily easy to explain, which would then be a viable category for maps with mandatory damage intakes, in order to allow people who liked running reality to compete over these maps by way of slotting in an additional metric, which was the "score" people would get at the end of the run.

 

The problem is that, aside of the somewhat tricky to convey rules, these runs also need to be verified. Every MMH demo you'd need to look at start to finish, and take notes as to where the player took damage, and what their highest or lowest health total was when they did, so that you would be able to verify that the score any given runner would claim for the map is the correct one...

 

So, once you have a category that's difficult to explain, when it also comes with the additional overhead as far as verification is considered, then you have a recipe for disaster. That's why I've been saying that straightforward rules, such as the one example I gave above lend themselves more towards a sustainable category than a whole bunch of "what-ifs" and "only-thens"... Imagine being the guy who runs a map under the assumption that it's impossible to get 100% kills while tagging less than 40% of all secrets. You practice the route, you record the run and submit it... Along comes somebody else who looked at the map in the builder, and they point out a fence glide, a linedef skip, and a void glide you could have, and should have done in order to actually tag the least amount of secrets possible. That weekend you just spent on composing a route, practising difficult fights, as well as all your demo attempts is suddenly invalidated not because your run wasn't good, but because someone else, who didn't even run the map yet, just happened to know better...

 

Why would anybody want to run a category like that - that's the question that needs to be answered when you develop rules for anything...

Edited April 13, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[sandwedge]

Yeah good point, I guess in other categories if someone finds a glide or something it doesn't automatically invalidate all prior runs, it just makes the time better.  It does sort of make prior runs obsolete but doesn't kick them from a category altogether.  Of course I wasn't even thinking about this because I haven't tried any of those speedrun type tricks!

[Andromeda]

On 4/13/2022 at 3:15 AM, Nine Inch Heels said:

Enter MMH, where, instead of getting disqualified the first instance you took damage, you would get a score based on a set of rules, which are not necessarily easy to explain, which would then be a viable category for maps with mandatory damage intakes, in order to allow people who liked running reality to compete over these maps by way of slotting in an additional metric, which was the "score" people would get at the end of the run.

Actually MMH predates Reality.

[Nine Inch Heels]

10 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Actually MMH predates Reality.

I always thought it was the other way around, but I stand corrected...

[Doomkid]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:39 AM, 7Mahonin said:

Believe it or not, there is such a thing as not playing on UV-Max, it’s just simply known as playing the game on UV and completing the game with whatever stat ratios you get in the end. It’s practically unheard of, but some people have been doing this for decades while the masses appear totally oblivious to this mode of playing the game and most believe it to be a total myth.

Ok, so this is only topic-adjacent, but I just have to moan and groan about it for a couple minutes here.

 

I swear that expecting players to get 100%s across the board and “prove themselves” when Dooming (streaming, recording demos, playtesting etc) is a tiresome but somewhat modern phenomenon. When the enemies are mostly dead and the exit is in sight, I’m flipping the damn switch. Spending 10-20 minutes wandering around in an empty map for some secret (that I beat the map just fine without) is not my idea of “fun”. Even in the realm of goofing around doing Doomy stuff, there’s much better uses of my time! I have zero intention of pissing it away being bored, lol.

 

It’s funny because I only broadcast 1-2 times a week on my channel, and the vast majority of the time, everything is really relaxed and fun. But I’ve gotten like 2 or 3 lone comments (over the last few months, so they’re rare) complaining that I wasn’t finding all the secrets and was playing “too slow” or something and it irritated me. It’s generally one-and-done burner accounts talking crap anyway, but still.

 

Yeah, I missed some secrets and I’m not some Uber-God of Doom skill (I’ll probably beat you in a DM though). But who really cares? I’m here for killing the baddies and finding the exit, plus general enjoyment with a side of chatting (when I’m recording). Not everything has to consist of someone showing off, y’know? Sometimes things are just allowed to be relaxed fun. That was precisely the intention behind the invention of the “video game”, heh.

 

I take Doom maps as they come, and that’s how we always did it - you use your wits in the moment to survive. The idea pre-stream reconnaissance of maps sounds omega boring to me, and actually defeats the fun of going in “mostly blind”. Not sure what’s up with the people who expect everyone to play SP Doom somewhere between decino and Zero-Master in skill level and thoroughness. I think it’s badass that such skilled and thorough Doom/wad playthroughs exist, by such skilled Doomers - but the people who then conclude that this should be “the norm” of any channel who plays some Doom are dullards.

 

It’s not something I encounter often at all on my channel, like I said.. but I’ve seen it directed at others plenty of times too over the last 5-6ish years, and have also seen a fair share of it in multiplayer servers for many more years. It’s just another incarnation of elitism. For a lot of players, playing the game as many countless hours as would be necessary to become a DoomGod would suck all the fun out of the experience, thus defeating the purpose of Doom / “the video game” as a concept!

 

I’m just glad most people don’t care/are relaxed and easygoing about it. I always wonder what’s up with the people who are so keen to call others out for their “bad playing”, though - Do they think others will see the shit talk and be impressed? “Wow, that guy is taking mad shit, he must be sooo good at Doom!” Or do they maybe think ladies are gonna drop trou on the spot because they can UV-Max Moonlust Map69 in 3.2 seconds? What’s the endgame here?!

 

The tl;dr of it is that caring about anyone’s Doom skill other than your own is a huge waste of time, and shit talking other Doomers just makes you look dumb, it doesn’t convince anyone that you “must be awesome” at the game. Dunno where this rant came from by the way.. Just collective annoyance at every time I’ve seen some variation of skill shaming in Doom over the years, I guess!

 

..BAZOOKA, the oldschool ZDaemon champion, said it best: If you’re playing for anything other than fun, you’re losing your time! For some people “fun” is becoming a DoomGod - but not for all, or even most of us.. and that’s totally fine.

[sandwedge]

6 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

 

 

Hey man, appreciate your thoughtful comments!  I also appreciate that you said it's sort of topic adjacent, I know I played a bit into the elitism thing with a stupid clickbait joke title (probably won't do that again) but hope I was clear in my edits and comments that I wasn't trying to be elitist, just legit wondering about a 0% secret run as an idea.

 

As for your thoughts specifically, absolutely!  If I'm at the end of a map I don't see the point of hunting for secrets for another 20 minutes, especially since I'm likely not playing continuous.  Obviously if the map is super cool or not big or something that's different.  However as someone who's only recently started making youtube videos I understand the draw of watching 100% videos, just because sometimes I want to see the complete experience of a map.  And sometimes it's fun to see highly skilled play too.  I can also see how those factors might get a few more views in videos.  I usually put in the title or description or something how I did for that reason.  But I think some people take that too far and start to EXPECT this as a baseline and that's pretty ridiculous.  Like you said, seems it's mostly a handful of people but it does suck when it crops up.  Personally I've enjoyed your Doom playthroughs exactly for the reason that they AREN'T perfect UV max playthroughs or something, but are just playing through taking it as it comes and having fun :-)

 

This reminds me that I did get a comment the other day that including UV max in my title was wrong because I used saves, I guess because UV max is a speedrun category and those demos don't have saves.  Of course plenty of others believe UV max just means 100% kills and secrets on ultraviolence and has nothing to do with saving, which is what I figure.  I'm not sure how many people in the community believe that UV max requires saveless, or if this is even elitist or just a difference of opinion, but I'm gonna continue to put that in my vid descriptions because I think it's correct and a few more people might be interested.

[BlueThunder]

I dont have to find all the secrets but I do enjoy doing that just as much as kill all the monsters, best part of Doom is that there are so many different ways to play it,  play it your way, so you enjoy it the most,  FYI I guess I'm a baby then

[Doomkid]

20 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

Hey man, appreciate your thoughtful comments!  I also appreciate that you said it's sort of topic adjacent, I know I played a bit into the elitism thing with a stupid clickbait joke title (probably won't do that again) but hope I was clear in my edits and comments that I wasn't trying to be elitist, just legit wondering about a 0% secret run as an idea.

Don't worry, I could tell your title was a joke! It was obvious as I started reading your posts when this thread first popped up.

 

My rant wasn't really directed at anyone here - this sort of thing is rare on DW. But, like a proper Doom nerd, I spend a fair bit of time looking through Doom YT channels, sometimes smaller ones, sometimes larger ones. In the "offsite colonies" of classic Doom like YouTube, the elitism problem shows up way more often. It used to also be really irritatingly common in the multiplayer scene, but that whole segment of the community has sadly shrunk, I think in large part due to the shitty attitudes that were common back then. I want to make it clear I'm not trying to rag on anyone who posted in this thread!

[zokum]

100% kills 0% secrets is probably not possible on all maps. Certain monsters are placed in 'secret areas', making it impossible to kill them without stepping into a sector marked as secret. I'm at work, so I can't check in an editor, but at the top of my head e1m3 probably has monsters placed in such locations. Some maps might be possible if you open up the door to the secret area and bait the monsters out.

Secrets are only triggered if you are the floor height of the sector, so jumping over a secret sector could solve the problem in some cases. Whether these runs are interesting is a whole different debate.

I personally prefer rules of the type: 100% kills. As few secrets as possible. If two runs have the same amount of secrets found, the faster one is considered the better one.

This type of rule also solves the 'secrets problem' on maps like map15 in doom 2 and e4m3 and e4m7 in the ultimate doom, where it's hard or impossible to reach all secrets. Until someone found a way to get 100% secrets on map15, 90% was the best run. Once a technique was found to reach it (PE trick) any slow run with 100% secrets is in my book a better run than a quick 90% run.

Edited April 20, 2022 by zokum
Fixed plural of maps and changed e4m9 to e4m7.

[TheShep]

What's interesting about what Doomkid said, is that when I watch people play Quake on YouTube, unlike Doom, the big Quake players never go for Hard / Nightmare Max... in fact it's pretty tough to find runs of maps with 100% secrets. So perhaps the Quake community is more humble about this sort of thing? Or maybe Quake isn't quite as popular so there's not a wide breadth of player skill around.

But yea, play any game how you want to. Chill and relax, or... chillax, if you will.
 

I have nothing in particular for the topic at hand though... besides: run the category if you want, but if you want others to run it, KIS (Keep it simple).

[Roebloz]

100% of items is masters only. I do it.

[sandwedge]

2 hours ago, Roebloz said:

100% of items is masters only. I do it.

 

Yeah I like to collect 100% items in a level and just die, I don't even need to complete the level because I've accomplished my goal.  It's like a metaphor for consumerism, man.

[zokum]

6 hours ago, b00mb0dy said:

What's interesting about what Doomkid said, is that when I watch people play Quake on YouTube, unlike Doom, the big Quake players never go for Hard / Nightmare Max... in fact it's pretty tough to find runs of maps with 100% secrets. So perhaps the Quake community is more humble about this sort of thing? Or maybe Quake isn't quite as popular so there's not a wide breadth of player skill around.

But yea, play any game how you want to. Chill and relax, or... chillax, if you will.
 

I have nothing in particular for the topic at hand though... besides: run the category if you want, but if you want others to run it, KIS (Keep it simple).

Quake is indeed played on lower skill levels when it's just a plain run to the exit. I think the idea is that in Quake the movement is very complex and is the main focus. Monsters just get in the way of a good route. Taking less damage also allow for more rocket jumps and similar tricks.

Quake's nightmare skill is barely harder than the hard skill level. Monsters will fire more, but will in some cases pose less of a threat due to acting more like a turret, and not closing in on the player. Constantly firing monsters are more predictable than monsters moving around. There is also no respawning in the style of Doom nightmare.

[Shepardus]

14 hours ago, b00mb0dy said:

What's interesting about what Doomkid said, is that when I watch people play Quake on YouTube, unlike Doom, the big Quake players never go for Hard / Nightmare Max... in fact it's pretty tough to find runs of maps with 100% secrets. So perhaps the Quake community is more humble about this sort of thing? Or maybe Quake isn't quite as popular so there's not a wide breadth of player skill around.

But yea, play any game how you want to. Chill and relax, or... chillax, if you will.
 

I have nothing in particular for the topic at hand though... besides: run the category if you want, but if you want others to run it, KIS (Keep it simple).

There are plenty of Nightmare demos on the Quake done Quick channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/QuakeSpeedrunning/videos

By my understanding, the main categories for Quake speedrunning are Easy Run (any%), Easy 100%, Nightmare Run, and Nightmare 100%.

[Jinxie]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:33 AM, Doomkid said:

Stuff!

Echoing your sentiment here, I say I "UV-max" stuff but really I'm only going for 100% kills every time (secret encounters included). I dislike secret hunting and as a general rule absolutely adore maps where there aren't any secrets for me to go through. 

I have never ever liked looking for secrets in any "boomer shooter", with the rare exception of ULTRAKILL for that matter, even though I can see why people enjoy it.

This makes me curious as to why the UV-max category was born with 100% kills and 100% secrets. Any history on the origin of the rules?

[Nine Inch Heels]

28 minutes ago, Jinxie said:

Echoing your sentiment here, I say I "UV-max" stuff but really I'm only going for 100% kills every time (secret encounters included). I dislike secret hunting and as a general rule absolutely adore maps where there aren't any secrets for me to go through. 

I have never ever liked looking for secrets in any "boomer shooter", with the rare exception of ULTRAKILL for that matter, even though I can see why people enjoy it.

This makes me curious as to why the UV-max category was born with 100% kills and 100% secrets. Any history on the origin of the rules?

If you're not going for 100% secrets, then you're by default not UVmaxing. It's not some term you get to just appropriate to what you do casually, because that term has rules, a long standing tradition, and the resulting kinds of expectations behind it. So don't call something a UVmax when it isn't one, especially not if you give feedback on anybody's maps, upload YT videos of your play-throughs, or whatever the hell you may or may not doing on social media... And no, this has nothing to do with gatekeeping, just bringing that up because I know a few folks who like to scream and shout about every time they see the faintest hint of an opportunity... Those categories we use in speedrunning are an  established "currency" of sorts, and watering that down by way of employing category descriptors wrongfully is plain and simple negative value for pretty much everybody involved...

 

As for the rules, I can only speculate, so I'll just say that memorizing secrets and routing maps with them in mind - even if the argument has been made that it makes things "easier" (which is an irrelevant argument when it's about speed at the bottom line, that also ignores that movement skills are involved, which don't come so easy) - is an expression of skill. Now you may ask "why not 100% items also?" and the answer to that question is, by and large, unnecessary tedium...

Edited April 22, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[GarrettChan]

It's very strange that so many people are obsessive with 100% items for some reason. Sometimes people just scream that you are not maxing because you don't get 100% items. Everything is a made up rule of some sort, and sometimes it has reasons, and sometimes it doesn't. For Doom, speculations are telling us getting 100% items is not fun and not really enjoyable to watch from a speedrunning perspective, but it's still a speculation. You need Doom speedrunning historians to tell you why this is defined back in the 1990s. You can say, oh, speedrunning rules are dumb, but this makes you a super annoying person, or whoever think they are a master when getting 100% items as well. Not to mention requiring 100% kills/secrets is already controversial enough for many maps, let alone 100% items as well. Otherwise, you can make up your ruleset and form your own community and say screw everybody else.

 

Then, for people like to stick to the "reason" for the "rules". Most of the reason behind is for the enjoyment factor of speedrunning to begin with. There are a variety of other categories in other games like "glitchless" when it's not really glitchless, and how do you put RNG manip into these categories? Or other games, how do you define "zipping" and "clipping"? Yeah, there's Prince of Persia: Sands of Time having no zipping category but clipping is allowed. Therefore, there's no actual point to dig way too deep about definition of something, but on the other hand, try your best not to misuse the terms to confuse others. For example, UV -Fast is not UV Speed with fast monsters.

Edited April 22, 2022 by GarrettChan

[sandwedge]

4 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

It's very strange that so many people are obsessive with 100% items for some reason. Sometimes people just scream that you are not maxing because you don't get 100% items. Everything is a made up rule of some sort, and sometimes it has reasons, and sometimes it doesn't. For Doom, speculations are telling us getting 100% items is not fun and not really enjoyable to watch from a speedrunning perspective, but it's still a speculation. You need Doom speedrunning historians to tell you why this is defined back in the 1990s. You can say, oh, speedrunning rules are dumb, but this makes you a super annoying person, or whoever think they are a master when getting 100% items as well. Not to mention requiring 100% kills/secrets is already controversial enough for many maps, let alone 100% items as well. Otherwise, you can make up your ruleset and form your own community and say screw everybody else.

 

Then, for people like to stick to the "reason" for the "rules". Most of the reason behind is for the enjoyment factor of speedrunning to begin with. There are a variety of other categories in other games like "glitchless" when it's not really glitchless, and how do you put RNG manip into these categories? Or other games, how do you define "zipping" and "clipping"? Yeah, there's Prince of Persia: Sands of Time having no zipping category but clipping is allowed. Therefore, there's no actual point to dig way too deep about definition of something, but on the other hand, try your best not to misuse the terms to confuse others. For example, UV -Fast is not UV Speed with fast monsters.

 

Does anyone actually complain about missing 100% items in a UV max?  I've only ever heard this as a joke.  Would be pretty sad to see someone serious about that lol, picking up every helmet you missed in a corner.

 

For definitions per speedruns, most communities seem to regulate it based on community and speedrunner knowledge and consensus.  Usually it just makes sense what is the most interesting and least nonsensical way to run something, at least for runs that do limit glitches, i.e. don't allow glitches that completely break everything interesting about the game, or make it take 30 seconds, or something.  You can still have those categories where you beat metroid in 30 seconds by clipping through a door or something, or pokemon is pretty famously glitchy as hell, and those are interesting in their own right but less than actually playing the videogame.

 

I remember there was that old speedrun archive (was it Twin Galaxies? who are now known as con men) where they had a policy of "no glitches".  Of course it became pretty clear that it was a ridiculous blanket policy when glitches can vary so widely in games, from small things developers didn't quite intend to full on breaking the game.  Why prevent cool frame perfect tricks and stuff that are actually super cool?  Or just little glitches that are pretty much basic gameplay at that point?

 

This of course does get quite heated when the community can't agree on what is healthiest, like the minecraft one that blew up where people can now basically make a tool assisted run for the main speedrun category, lol.  Which is crazy, but it actually... sorta makes sense.  I dunno, I see all of this in all the excellent speedrun analysis videos out there, it's a cool scene that I just haven't felt the pull to join myself.