Is UV Max for babies?

[GarrettChan]

49 minutes ago, sandwedge said:

Does anyone actually complain about missing 100% items in a UV max?  I've only ever heard this as a joke.  Would be pretty sad to see someone serious about that lol, picking up every helmet you missed in a corner.

 

(...)

 

pokemon is pretty famously glitchy as hell, and those are interesting in their own right but less than actually playing the videogame.

 

(...)

 

Why prevent cool frame perfect tricks and stuff that are actually super cool?  Or just little glitches that are pretty much basic gameplay at that point?

 

(...)

 

I dunno, I see all of this in all the excellent speedrun analysis videos out there, it's a cool scene that I just haven't felt the pull to join myself.

 

I think there are a handful of these people out there, but obviously it's rare. They like to comment on UV Max runs by saying, you didn't get 100% item so that's not a max in their opinions. To some extent, it's actually somewhat annoying to see these due to lack of general knowledge, like comparing UV Speed and UV Max in time and saying UV Max is too slow, or not a WR etc., which lies in a similar level of saying "not having 100% item is not a Max".

 

Completely understand what you mean. Besides Doom, I also semi casually run Pokemon Yellow any% Glitchless and Crystal any% Glitchless, so I totally get what you mean. The way I'm saying that, it's sorta controversial that whether RNG Manipulation is allowed in "Glitchless" and how do you define a glitch in the first place. Pokemon Yellow requires the manip for a perfect Nidoran (M) and Crystal requires the manip for a Master Ball (which I can do), and a super convoluted way to manip a Raikou with Ground type Hidden Power (which I can't do...). Pokemon used to not accept non single segmented run, and they later realize it's cooler to get these in, so later save/load is allowed and switched from IGT to RTA.

 

I personally don't understand why develops want to prevent frame perfect tricks, similar to why mappers want to make their map completely glitch free. I guess it's more like the position that you don't want to admit your "defeat", which doesn't actually mean any kind of defeat, and you should be happy that a player actually devotes himself to make something fun happening that you don't think of. Though, I have to admit, the line is somewhat difficult to draw. Like a glitch that 50% of the people found out is probably not as cool as another glitch requiring some convoluted setup to make it possible with human input errors.

 

Speedrun is still very niche and you need to invest a lot of time in it, so it's completely fair that you stay as an audience.

Edited April 22, 2022 by GarrettChan

[sandwedge]

5 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

 

I think there are a handful of these people out there, but obviously it's rare. They like to comment on UV Max runs by saying, you didn't get 100% item so that's not a max in their opinions. To some extent, it's actually somewhat annoying to see these due to lack of general knowledge, like comparing UV Speed and UV Max in time and saying UV Max is too slow, or not a WR etc., which lies in a similar level of saying "not having 100% item is not a Max".

 

Completely understand what you mean. Besides Doom, I also semi casually run Pokemon Yellow any% Glitchless and Crystal any% Glitchless, so I totally get what you mean. The way I'm saying that, it's sorta controversial that whether RNG Manipulation is allowed in "Glitchless" and how do you define a glitch in the first place. Pokemon Yellow requires the manip for a perfect Nidoran (M) and Crystal requires the manip for a Master Ball (which I can do), and a super convoluted way to manip a Raikou with Ground type Hidden Power (which I can't do...). Pokemon used to not accept non single segmented run, and they later realize it's cooler to get these in, so later save/load is allowed and switched from IGT to RTA.

 

I personally don't understand why develops want to prevent frame perfect tricks, similar to why mappers want to make their map completely glitch free. I guess it's more like the position that you don't want to admit your "defeat", which doesn't actually mean any kind of defeat, and you should be happy that a player actually devotes himself to make something fun happening that you don't think of. Though, I have to admit, the line is somewhat difficult to draw. Like a glitch that 50% of the people found out is probably not as cool as another glitch requiring some convoluted setup to make it possible with human input errors.

 

Speedrun is still very niche and you need to invest a lot of time in it, so it's completely fair that you stay as an audience.

 

Haha this is turning into a cool speedrun discussion!  Interesting to hear about your pokemon experience, I've heard of this.  That's a really cool example because it's not really a glitch, it's just that true random number generation doesn't exist so pokemon randomizes based on actions I believe (kinda like doom) and based on the game calendar.  It's virtually impossible to do it well in doom but in pokemon you can abuse it.  To the point where people RNG manipulate perfect EV/hidden power etc. pokemon and are like, well they're not hacked so these are legit.  Like, yeah sorta, at that point why not just hack them, right?.  But it's not a glitch because it's the engine working as intended, it's just NOT intended that people figure it out.  So yeah that's one of those grey areas that just needs to be solved for each game in speedrunning, no blanket policy is gonna work.

 

I don't really know a lot about Doom glitches honestly but it's probably a lot like straferunning, gliding and SR50s and stuff.  I mean is squeezing through the wall in Underhalls in a pixel perfect manner really a glitch if the gap is just wide enough to do so, and you just need to move at it in a certain way?  Doesn't sound like it in a sense, but maybe it is considered one.

 

And yeah that's an interesting thing when developers start releasing patches that "fix" all the speedrunning strats, I believe Hollow Knight was notorious for this.  On the one hand I get fixing your creation when it breaks, and speedrunning is pretty niche anyway, but if nobody but speedrunners are gonna do it is it really worth fixing?  Aren't you potentially taking away potential interest from the game too?

[ImproversGaming]

I think we are all agreeing on this thread.

 

The best way to play Doom is the way you enjoy – we all focus on different objectives and hopefully most are aligned with what we enjoy. If you are a 100% secrets, items, kills or even a 100% barrel exploder then go for it and enjoy – whatever works for you.

 

One small distinction I would make though is that UV-Max is a *speedrunning* category. So, achieving 100% kills and secrets is not a UV-Max for me in general as I play for fun and have no objective to run the map or map(s) as quickly as possible. For those that like to compare speedrunning accomplishments with others there must be a clear set of rules to provide a level playing field to compare like for like (like in all competitive sports). The speedrunning categories provide rigid and unambiguous (AFAIK) rules for everyone so that anyone wanting to submit a time knows exactly what is required – this makes a lot of sense.

 

However, although this is great for speedrunners if you are a non-speedrunner you do not need to get caught up in these rigid categories and rules and can just play as you like. I often feel that players conflate the speedrunning categories with the ways one should play the game. This is not the case – you can play any way you wish.

 

Note: I love watching high-quality speedrunning, something really fluid and relaxing about it. If you would like to check out good runs I recommend the DooMed Speed Demos Archive (DSDA) on YouTube – this hosts contributions from a range of runners in our community.

[Marisa the Magician]

Other's have already mentioned it and I have to agree. How can you even DARE call it "MAX" if you're not going also for 100% items? That ain't "MAX" at all if you're only maxing out two of the tallies now, ain't it? Maybe it should be given a less misleading name, because for the longest time I did make the assumption that it also went for all items, and was confused when I finally sat down and watched some runs myself.

[zokum]

2 hours ago, Marisa Kirisame said:

Other's have already mentioned it and I have to agree. How can you even DARE call it "MAX" if you're not going also for 100% items? That ain't "MAX" at all if you're only maxing out two of the tallies now, ain't it? Maybe it should be given a less misleading name, because for the longest time I did make the assumption that it also went for all items, and was confused when I finally sat down and watched some runs myself.

Due to the way the games is coded, 100% is not possible om all Maps. Automaps count, but you can only pick up one per map. Doom 2 map18 has 2 on single player. I believe the reasoning was that if you had killes all monsters and found all secrets, running around hoovering all items was pointless. What about ammo, barrels and health? Item % is fairly arbitrary

 

[ImproversGaming]

I partially agree, there is always something a bit arbitrary. However, the intermission screen on completing a map lists the Kills, Items, Secret, so there are reasonable grounds for it to be viewed this way.

 

Also the rules are flexible to inaccessible kills and secrets too that occur on specific maps.

 

28 minutes ago, zokum said:

Due to the way the games is coded, 100% is not possible om all Maps. Automaps count, but you can only pick up one per map. Doom 2 map18 has 2 on single player. I believe the reasoning was that if you had killes all monsters and found all secrets, running around hoovering all items was pointless. What about ammo, barrels and health? Item % is fairly arbitrary

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by ImproversGaming
Added flexible rules bit...

[Maribo]

I imagine most Max runners would just stop submitting runs if there was a rules restructure to require 100% items. It's just a recipe for tedium and padded demos. Anyone who wants to do "TRUE MAX" runs is free to do so, but you'll probably be alone in that quest.

[RjY]

The Doom Honorific Titles DOOM Master and DOOM II Master were only "Ultra-Violence, 100% or more kills". It appears the requirement to visit all secrets was a later addition as the DHT evolved into modern categories.

[4shockblast]

4 hours ago, Marisa Kirisame said:

Other's have already mentioned it and I have to agree. How can you even DARE call it "MAX" if you're not going also for 100% items? That ain't "MAX" at all if you're only maxing out two of the tallies now, ain't it? Maybe it should be given a less misleading name, because for the longest time I did make the assumption that it also went for all items, and was confused when I finally sat down and watched some runs myself.

The rule doesn't say UV-Max kills/items/secrets, it's just UV-Max :^). Arguably, there's no need to assume anything about what we are maxing, if two out of three categories are maxed it's still a technically accurate name. :)

 

Names are arbitrary anyway; for example, why should max be 100% anyway? It would make just as much sense to make it mean actually max, which means if a map has archviles, your goal is to get as many resurrects as possible so you get more than 100%. At the end of the day, I think arguing about semantics is entirely pointless; anyone can feel free to consider whatever they want as their personal max; but from a speedrun perspective, the rules were selected to be practically competitive (e.g., some monster kills are skipped if they are unreasonable to kill like Scythe map 28 and we don't kill as many resurrects as possible) and fun to play, so items are skipped because collecting them would involve inordinate amounts of tedium. As Maribo pointed out, I doubt you could find a single UV-Max speedrunner who would argue for including items in the percentage, and if that were forced on the community purely because it sounds right or something, most runners would ignore the ruling and either play by the old rules or not do maxes. I mean can you imagine collecting every megasphere in a slaughtermap?

Edited April 23, 2022 by 4shockblast

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, 4shockblast said:

Names are arbitrary anyway;

At least it's clever that "max" means the most you can get in broken maps :P

 

If the category is called UV 100%, then a lot more s**tshows can happen than right now, haha.

 

 

3 hours ago, Maribo said:

I imagine most Max runners would just stop submitting runs if there was a rules restructure to require 100% items. It's just a recipe for tedium and padded demos. Anyone who wants to do "TRUE MAX" runs is free to do so, but you'll probably be alone in that quest.

Yep, me being one, in order to save my precious time, please make 100% items as a requirement, so I have live happier (not true)

Edited April 23, 2022 by GarrettChan

[Jinxie]

On 4/23/2022 at 2:41 AM, Nine Inch Heels said:

If you're not going for 100% secrets, then you're by default not UVmaxing.

 

Out of curiosity then: is "UV-maxing" something that implicitly requires the player to record demos? I know it's probably a weird silly semantics question, but I've been doing a UV-max of Sunlust (real actual UV-max, not the earlier thing I said which I'll replace with "100% kills" instead) and wanted to check if it's fine to say that without doing recorded saveless speedruns of maps

[sandwedge]

2 hours ago, Jinxie said:

 

Out of curiosity then: is "UV-maxing" something that implicitly requires the player to record demos? I know it's probably a weird silly semantics question, but I've been doing a UV-max of Sunlust (real actual UV-max, not the earlier thing I said which I'll replace with "100% kills" instead) and wanted to check if it's fine to say that without doing recorded saveless speedruns of maps

 

Well I'm not an *expert* I guess but plenty of people use the term UV Max on Youtube while also saving.  Saveless is just for speedrunning.  But I had one guy on youtube tell me otherwise.  I personally might just say UV 100% from now on to avoid any stupid confusion (and I don't care at all about the 100% item people LOL).

Edited April 24, 2022 by sandwedge

[Thelokk]

1 minute ago, sandwedge said:

(and I don't care at all about the 100% item people LOL).

 

I'm taking this one personally. 

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 hours ago, Jinxie said:

Out of curiosity then: is "UV-maxing" something that implicitly requires the player to record demos?

If you want an entry on the DSDArchive, you will need to provide a demo-file that contains examinable data. If not, but you met all the criteria for what a UVmax would be regardless, and you then told a mapper "hey, I UVmaxed your map the other day - here's what I think about it..." they would at least know (and/or expect) that you've seen the map in its entirety (all secrets included) - that's what's the most important part about it in the first place. I don't think anybody would care if you called it UVmax or "casual max" in that context, and I certainly wouldn't be wagging my finger in either case.

 

It's primarily down to what the term "max" entails, and making sure that there aren't however many different interpretations of it circulating around in a community where it's not only a term used in speedrunning to outline what a runner has accomplished, but where a significant number of people will straight up expect that you've  actually seen 100% of something instead of skipping over bits and pieces.

 

Put yourself in a mapper's shoes, and imagine I told you that I maxed your map. Then I start talking about something that rubbed me wrong, let's say for argument's sake a hurtfloor section for which I couldn't find a rad-suit (even though there are several tucked away in a secret that you, as the mapper, think I should have found since I told you that I maxed your map), and suddenly there's a problem just because one of us didn't have their definitions right.