Should I play Alien Vendetta on HMP or UV?

[TakenStew22]

I finally finished the Memento Mori's and Requiem, and my next wad to finish is the all-time classic. However, I'm wondering if a casual Doomer like myself will be able to enjoy it on UV. I did play the earlier maps a long time ago but stopped playing it at about map 11 or 12. Is UV recommended for a casual Doom player or no?

Edited April 25, 2022 by TakenStew22

[PasokonDeacon]

The issue here is that, unlike the earlier big CPs (prior to Community Chest), Alien Vendetta has a considerable difficulty spike between MAP24 and MAP25. UV's quite doable up through MAP24, at least for most new players who've gone through all the IWADs. But it goes into almost entirely slaughter-style maps after that, building off AV's Hell Revealed influences. I think it makes sense to ramp down to HMP once you reach Demonic Hordes, especially given how grindy that map gets. UV back then still doesn't reach the skill/dexterity demands of today's UV implementations, but those last several maps will take more time/pain to complete than the preceding ones.

[TakenStew22]

  On 4/14/2022 at 11:09 PM, PasokonDeacon said:

The issue here is that, unlike the earlier big CPs (prior to Community Chest), Alien Vendetta has a considerable difficulty spike between MAP24 and MAP25. UV's quite doable up through MAP24, at least for most new players who've gone through all the IWADs. But it goes into almost entirely slaughter-style maps after that, building off AV's Hell Revealed influences. I think it makes sense to ramp down to HMP once you reach Demonic Hordes, especially given how grindy that map gets. UV back then still doesn't reach the skill/dexterity demands of today's UV implementations, but those last several maps will take more time/pain to complete than the preceding ones.

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Yeah Demonic Hordes looks pretty scary. I wish there was a way to change skill level mid-game without starting over and resetting all my weapons and resources.

[out_of_service]

Just go with I'm too young to die.

[elic]

IIRC I was in a similar position when I played AV for the first time. Back then almost everything saveless on UV. AV was definitely a step up from Requiem on UV but a I managed to get through it. It's the type of thing that teaches you to get better though as you go along, and in general the gameplay felt much more thought out and designed for fun than Requiem. The challenge gradually ramps up over the course of wad, so by the time you get to hardest maps (25-27, plus the secret ones too maybe) it's not as bad as a jump as could have been otherwise.

 

I recommend trying out pistol starting if you haven't before. I was pretty hesitant to try it for a while but it really adds a whole new layer of strategy to the game

 

Also don't be as stubborn as I was back in the day and make use of saves if stuck on something for a long time 😛.  I remember Map27 being a huge pain to do saveless due to it's sheer length and linearity

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

If it's your first time I'd recommend you go for HMP

[TakenStew22]

I decided to go for UV. If the later levels are too stressful then I'll lower the difficulty. Thx guys.

[LadyMistDragon]

Map 14 and the secret maps are much better played in hmp for a newer player, believe me.:)

[PsychEyeball]

Don't play Alien Vendetta on UV, you're just asking for pain here. It is much, much harder than anything Memento Mori and Requiem ever throws at you.

 

You should be mostly fine for Episode 1, but Episode 2 and onwards show very little pity. Demonic Hordes and Dark Dome in particular show no mercy.

[TakenStew22]

  On 4/15/2022 at 4:35 AM, PsychEyeball said:

Don't play Alien Vendetta on UV, you're just asking for pain here. It is much, much harder than anything Memento Mori and Requiem ever throws at you.

 

You should be mostly fine for Episode 1, but Episode 2 and onwards show very little pity. Demonic Hordes and Dark Dome in particular show no mercy.

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Noted.

[head_cannon]

If you're playing with saves and hoarding resources, then you can certainly finish the mapset on UV. I'm not particularly great at the game, but I was able to work through Alien Vendetta in UV-Continuous mode without ever getting stuck until that infamous BFG battle in MAP29.

 

I did break through after a couple dozen tries, I just mean that it was the only conventional "linear setpiece" moment that I had to practice to overcome - everything else was really open-ended in how it asked you to go about clearing threats & securing objectives, and while I found the campaign overall to be a satisfying puzzle to solve, it was still exhausting.

 

In the game's final chapter, areas would frequently be packed with a very high amount of monster HP and I would have to commit a lot of time to clearing them out in order to take a look around and figure out what I'd even earned from this. I'd wonder aloud: "I spent all that ammo in order to get here. ...Is it good to be here? Should I have done this?"

 

Other times, I'd have the opportunity to skip all that sloggy work, dodge past the guardians and slip into the next door, and I'd instead have to wonder: "Boy, I hope I don't need to backtrack later. Should I have done this?"

 

Every time I spent an Invulnerability in Demonic Hordes or Dark Dome, I was always worried that there was a bigger encounter coming later and I'd just goozled myself. Those levels aren't hard, but they are really, really dense, and keeping track of all the variables & all the contingencies took up all eight save slots the vanilla game gave me. If I'd been playing on dsda-doom, I could have doubled the amount of slots used, easily.

 

-

 

I was happy to put in the work to get through Alien Vendetta because I wanted to see all the sights - it's a high-water mark for vanilla visuals and demonstrates a particular mastery of light & shadow - but it's already a grueling marathon and reducing the amount of meatshields to chop through can only be a good thing. But still, I think you'll be ok on UV. It's not that any challenge is beyond your skill level, it's just that a lot of care & diligence is required to strategize & solve the set.

[Daytime Waitress]

  On 4/15/2022 at 3:07 AM, TakenStew22 said:

I decided to go for UV. If the later levels are too stressful then I'll lower the difficulty. Thx guys.

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Best of luck, OP.

 

I'm not a particularly skilled player, and only recently completed it on HMP myself. While I need a break from it because it helped me realise that I don't enjoy plowing through 32 maps in a short period of time, I will definitely will come back to it on UV because it's such an engaging collection.

 

I actually didn't have any problems with Demonic Hordes (MAP25), because it was close enough to the exploratory/adventure side of the spectrum for my tastes: simply put, there were enough scenic changes and graphical flourishes to keep my monkey brain entertained, despite the body count/challenge ramping up. The very next map (Dark Dome) was absolutely a wall, and I very nearly didn't see it through to the end - shout out to @Xulgonoth and @Cammy for the new track keeping me sane. That one was just too close to the "monolithic combat puzzle" side of the spectrum for my tastes that I don't regret chosing HMP for my first run.

 

YMMV and all that, but like other folks have said, slap the difficulty down when the fun starts getting sucked out of it. Whatever you choose, you're gonna have a blast with this wad!

[erzboesewicht]

A particular tip for Demonic Hordes: The bigger fights may seem intimidating at first, but if you always try to move (instead of trying to hide), you'll be mostly fine. I'm not a good player, but I consider Demonic Hordes easier than some maps of Memento Mori 2 now (e.g. The Shaft and No Way Out), because generally inciting infighting is easy (with the exception of the last cavern) and ammo and health are abundant. MAP26 (Dark Dome) is another story and as some have written already has a pretty unique combat-puzzle style (very different actually from its inspiration HR MAP24, but a bit easier), in my first playthrough I needed plenty of saves. And MAP29 has one very notable cramped revenant fight which can also be difficult on UV; particularly it needs BFG and herding skills.

 

Another tip: if you want to try the mapset continuous first and then dial down to HMP, MAP21 is a good point to change difficulty - it was made very specifically with pistol start in mind, it's not super-easy but has a low monster count so it's not a long grind.

Edited April 25, 2022 by erzboesewicht

[TakenStew22]

I just noticed I spelled HMP as HTP. Smh.

[zokum]

One of the advantages of AV is that Anders Johnsen, who did the monster placement on a lot of the maps, played and tested it on all 3 main skill levels. There was a lot of thought put into how hard the combat and game play should be compared to most earlier efforts. There was also a lot of coop testing done, ensuring decent two player game play. It isn't designed for respawning ammo which some online servers use today. That ruins the intended game play. Care was taken to make keyed doors stay open in order to avoid having to hunt down loads of keys and weaponry when respawning. This game play loop is problematic in coop if an encounter / area is too hard.

Mappers could learn a lot from studying AV and how it caters to both SP and COOP game play. Many of the maps have teleporter shortcuts that make it easier to travel quickly to more remote areas once they have been unlocked. A technique I recommend everyone should implement on larger maps designed for coop play.

I like it when picking up a weapon lowers a platform/alcove in the start area with that weapon there as well, but flagged multiplayer only. The same can also be done for keys. No one likes running around empty areas for a few minutes in order to pick up weapons and keys before they head back to the actual game play.

[NightFright]

AV would profit from being divided into episodes. The first few one could play on HMP/UV and when it comes to the hell cluster (maps 21-30), one could switch to lower difficulties.

[ChopBlock223]

  On 4/14/2022 at 11:16 PM, TakenStew22 said:

Yeah Demonic Hordes looks pretty scary. I wish there was a way to change skill level mid-game without starting over and resetting all my weapons and resources.

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You'll probably do fine, see it as a tradeoff for the levels not being balls hard.

 

  On 4/14/2022 at 11:56 PM, Processingcontrol said:

I recommend trying out pistol starting if you haven't before. I was pretty hesitant to try it for a while but it really adds a whole new layer of strategy to the game

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Aye. I like progressive play, but actually making some maps of my own, it really hits me how much it changes the challenge.

 

That's why I really like UMAPINFO and mapsets which use death exits to create pseudo episodes, because then you can have the progressive play for a while, but get reset a couple of times so you don't always have all your cool stuff at all times.

[zokum]

  On 4/26/2022 at 8:46 AM, NightFright said:

AV would profit from being divided into episodes. The first few one could play on HMP/UV and when it comes to the hell cluster (maps 21-30), one could switch to lower difficulties.

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Doom 2 is one big episode really. You can't "split it into episodes". All of the maps are designed to play from pistol start, so you can just start up map 21 on HMP and have a good time. Anders was quite clear about making all difficulties a good experience.

Doom 2 did have a sort of episode structure in earlier releases, with names for the three episodes, but this was removed in later releases from the setup etc.

[ChopBlock223]

Never heard of Doom 2 having any kind of episode features or any mentions of it anywhere, is this true?

[kwc]

  On 4/28/2022 at 6:45 AM, ChopBlock223 said:

Never heard of Doom 2 having any kind of episode features or any mentions of it anywhere, is this true?

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Yeah man, according to the wiki. Check it out! 
https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_II#Levels

Edited April 28, 2022 by kwc

[zokum]

  On 4/28/2022 at 6:50 AM, kwc said:

Yeah man, according to the wiki. Check it out! 
https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_II#Levels

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Yes, I probably should have added a reference. The sky changes also match these 'episodes'.

Edited April 28, 2022 by zokum

[ChopBlock223]

Ah, I somehow missed or forgot that. Wonder if there was ever the idea to reset the player's inventory or to feature a progressing intermission map screen at any point?

[zokum]

  On 4/28/2022 at 7:03 AM, ChopBlock223 said:

Ah, I somehow missed or forgot that. Wonder if there was ever the idea to reset the player's inventory or to feature a progressing intermission map screen at any point?

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Most likely not as there is a clear difficulty, monster and feature curve on the first maps 11 maps. None of the remaining maps are suitable as an episode opener or as a second map in an episode, nor are there any boss battles. In the original game E1M1 was all about showing off important features and sell the game. With Doom 2 this wasn't an issue.

Map01 introduces two new monsters.
Map02 introduces two new monsters.
Map03 introduces two new monsters.
Map04 has no new monsters, but has the first damaging floor.
Map05 introduces three new monsters.
Map06 introduces two new monsters.
Map07 introduces two new monsters.
Map08 introduces three new monsters.
Map11 introduces the final regular monster, the arch-vile.

If I had done the monster placement, I probably would have added 1 cacodemon in the end on map04, a bit like e2m1. I would also drop the Pain Elementals on map08 and saved them for map09. I would also used the PEs differently there, since they are kinda naff when there are so many Lost Souls on the map.

[zokum]

  On 4/28/2022 at 7:03 AM, ChopBlock223 said:

Ah, I somehow missed or forgot that. Wonder if there was ever the idea to reset the player's inventory or to feature a progressing intermission map screen at any point?

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I think they had a lot of ideas for Doom 2, but ended up scrapping a lot of them, as they often did. They had sliding door support being worked one, most likely for use on the wolfenstein maps. Maps were also moved around, retextured and remonstered from earlier betas.

[Mr Masker]

there's also the midi pack for Vendetta which adds original tracks from the community

 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/126485-alien-vendetta-midi-pack-now-on-idgames/?tab=comments#comment-2431657

[ChopBlock223]

  On 5/1/2022 at 9:47 AM, zokum said:

I think they had a lot of ideas for Doom 2, but ended up scrapping a lot of them, as they often did. They had sliding door support being worked one, most likely for use on the wolfenstein maps. Maps were also moved around, retextured and remonstered from earlier betas.

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I've seen that stuff. I think it's neat that Icon Of Sin, even if not a breathtaking map or anything, was hurriedly devised from largely existing assets just so they could make the final boss SOMETHING different.

Time was short but I admire that Sandy and Adrian didn't just settle for using just more Spiderminds or Cyberdemons, had to be something the player hadn't fought before.