Skills necessary for slaughtermaps

[LouigiVerona]

Hey everyone!

 

Veteran Doom player, but by no means a veteran when it comes to skill. I have been able to beat some slaughtermaps, for instance, I could manage some Sunder maps, to my own surprise.

 

However, generally, whenever I try any of the maps deemed difficult, think Abandon or Quantum Strike, I'm just lost. I've recently watched Decino's take on Quantum Strike MAP03, then tried this map myself - and I can hardly get anywhere. I was able to survive the first fight, because Decino explains that you have to move around in a particular pattern - and that helped, although it took me many tries. And then already the next fight I'm not able to get through, while Decino just breezes through the crowds of monsters with ease. I was also blown away by videos of folks decimating Abandon. I couldn't even understand what's happening on screen.

 

So, I have a suspicion that as a player I'm missing critical skills and knowledge about how to properly beat slaughtermaps. And I decided to start this thread to suggest a bit of knowledge sharing.

 

My suspicion is that several things are required:

 

1. Deep knowledge on how monsters behave and tactical tricks on how to properly evade their attacks.
This specifically refers to revenants, since I see skilled players be able to control their projectiles to a much higher degree than us average players are able to. Seems especially important if you have a 100 revenant projectiles flying at you. On one of the Abandon map videos I've seen a player do a weird dance - and all revenant projectiles just missed him. I have no idea what that technique is.

Additionally, although I think I know how the BFG works, I consistently see that more skilled players manage to survive those crowds of monsters consistently, whereas I might need many-many tries and a lot of intermediary saves to get through, say, your standard Sunder map. And whenever I watch videos of walkthroughs or even livesteams - I don't have a clear understanding of what those players do correctly and what am I doing wrong.

I guess, we're talking not only about monster behavior, but also monster crowd behavior.

2. Higher than average accuracy and skill in moving around.

I assume that that must be the case, although I don't necessarily see signs of that when watching skilled players beat slaughtermaps. Like, when you watch speedrunners, you can see that they have learned a given map so well that they are fluent to a crazy degree. With livestreams and/or videos from skilled players I don't necessarily see anything unusual, but maybe I'm just not seeing it.

 

3. An understanding of the map itself.

I might be wrong here, but I always tended to look at slaughtermaps as puzzles - there's a way to beat it, you just need to figure out how. And it all comes down to analyzing the situation and coming up with a good tactical approach.

 

I am not entirely sure if this is the right way to think about it, though. In some cases I've seen skilled players take the map head on, just "be good" in a mysterious way (hence the two previous points). This is especially true for Abandon, I just don't see any "clever tactics" in there when I watch the maps being beat on YouTube.

 

In case of the Quantum Strike map, Decino's video definitely helped. Without it I would have been pretty unlikely to find the safe pattern and would've likely just considered the map to be impossible or made for some Doom gods of which I'm clearly not.

 

In the second phase of that fight several archviles are released and at first I was immediately killed. Reloading several times, I just couldn't do anything at all, there were just too many of them and I didn't have enough ammo. However, I then re-positioned myself and was able to kill the archviles off one by one. So, clearly, in that situation I had to change my approach. But was it by design? Did the creator of the map really think - you should go here and kill them off one by one? Or was it something that worked for me, but someone else would've been just super good and would have run around and killed them anyway?

Then again, these insights have limited value for someone like myself, an average player. Eventually, I got blocked by the fight right after that and I cannot beat it at all. I watched and re-watched Decino's video, and he did provide a useful tactic - kill the revenants and archviles first. For some reason, I hadn't thought of that and initially chose a different strategy. But even then, with this seemingly better strategy, I am currently stuck. I can see that I can beat it just by random luck, but I am not getting the feeling that I am becoming better at it through attempts. I just get exposed to the random options of the situation.


Anyway, let's see if we can collectively shed light on this. As a relatively casual player I would like to learn and get better and at least theoretically feel equipped to face a slaughtermap.

[philcul]

Well, one thing that you need to learn and that you surprisingly didn't mention in your first point, is that a necessary skill is to learn how to best orchestrate infighting.

Running or shortly standing in a way so that some projectile or group of projectiles hit a monster or group of monsters; guide one or more revenant missiles; lead a cyber demon to where you want him to stand so that he fires in a group of monsters that all get angry at him (because of the splash damage); and so on. Because sometimes - not always - you have to act more like a conductor or director in a slaughter fight. Actively shaping groups of monsters, leading them where you want them to be, and thinking of cyber demons not as a big enemy but as kind of dangerous but helpful endless rocket launcher.

Edited April 16, 2022 by AdNauseam

[Nefelibeta]

It’s probably because your starting point is too high. Abandon and Quantum Strike are very difficult and can be troublesome to even experienced players. It’s good to see you analyzing the things that you need to learn, but beginning from a slightly easier map set will make your journey hellalot enjoyable.

 

That being said, you don’t need to train these skills specifically to just get good. Play more and more slaughtermaps and you’ll be able to learn those tactics efficiently and conquer the wads you mentioned. Experiences don’t come out of nowhere
(I guess it is a bit off-topic)

Edited April 16, 2022 by Nefelibeta

[LouigiVerona]

2 minutes ago, AdNauseam said:

Well, one thing that you need to learn and that you surprisingly didn't mention in your first point, is that a necessary skill is to learn how to best orchestrate infighting.

Running or shortly standing in a way so that some projectile or group of projectiles hit a monster or group of monsters; guide one or more revenant missiles; lead a cyber demon to where you want him to stand so that he fires in a group of monsters that all get angry at him (because of the splash damage); and so on. Because sometimes - not always - you have to act more like a conductor or director in a slaughter fight. Actively shaping groups of monsters, leading them where you want them to be, and thinking of cyber demons not as a big enemy but as kind of dangerous but helpful endless rocket launcher.

Yep, good point, I forgot about that.

But in a way, infighting is a known tricks even from playing average maps, so I think that's why I haven't mentioned it.

I wonder if there's more to infighting when slaughtermaps are concerned. Also, in at least some cases, you get a crowd of monsters that won't infight, like a crowd of imps.

[LouigiVerona]

4 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

It’s probably because your starting point is too high. Abandon and Quantum Strike are very difficult and can be troublesome to even experienced players. It’s good to see you analyzing the things that you need to learn, but beginning from a slightly easier map set will make your journey hellalot enjoyable.

 

That being said, you don’t need to train these skills specifically to just get good. Play more and more slaughtermaps and you’ll be able to learn those tactics efficiently and conquer the wads you mentioned. Experiences don’t come out of nowhere
(I guess it is a bit off-topic)

This makes sense. And, as I said, I did try some slaughtermaps, like Sunder, for instance. Not all of them, I kind of try them out and then several maps would have a combination of a setup that I find fun along with a feeling that perhaps this is doable.

[philcul]

Just now, LouigiVerona said:

Yep, good point, I forgot about that.

But in a way, infighting is a known tricks even from playing average maps, so I think that's why I haven't mentioned it.

I wonder if there's more to infighting when slaughtermaps are concerned. Also, in at least some cases, you get a crowd of monsters that won't infight, like a crowd of imps.

 

Of course, infighting is known from non-slaughter maps as well, but so are in a way most of the other things you mentioned in your first post.

I think yes, infighting - while its not the only important thing - plays a different and more important role in slaughter-maps. I'd say you have to be more active and more tactical about, probably think about who you want to infight and who you want to fight yourself.

 

Another thing is also: While in normal gameplay you might want to focus on the biggest threat first in slaughter fights it's sometimes better to kill the weaker enemies first, because slaughter fights are also fights aroun space and Imps go down faster then Hell Knights.

[Martin Howe]

"Skills necessary for slaughtermaps"? Oh that's easy: rm -f $WADFILE. (Funny question) :P :P

[Captain POLAND]

Patience.

 

 

[Nine Inch Heels]

And here I was thinking this is another one of those "hey guys, here are some tips I've found in the YT comment section" types of threads... I'm pleasantly surprised that this is not the case...

 

One of the first things that you need to learn is "automation"...

You need to be able to develop movement patterns that dodge most of the incoming projectiles automatically, so that you can focus on something that is more important than trying to dodge every fireball coming your way. Likewise, you need to develop a feeling for the speed of revenant rockets, and develop movement habits that make you go always just a little bit faster than those homing missiles...

 

Next on the list is threat identification...
What is killing you why, when, and how? Slaughtermaps don't follow the same "rules" as most vanilla maps in that "shoot the vile/PE first" isn't always the approach you need to be taking. You want to look at the pieces on the board, and think about what those pieces are actually doing, and then formulate a strategy not based on rigid rules a wannabe expert passes off as good advice but based on the conclusions you have been able to make based on your own observations... When that's done, you can concern yourself with which pieces you need to remove first, and which other pieces are not a priority for you at any given point in time. Moreover, you also need to identify what a fight does from a methodical perspective. Is it a spammy encounter, where you're going to have to make sure you kill as quickly as possible, or is it less about "real-estate-pressure" and maybe more about some very distinct mechanics, such as for example the revenant's close combat range, or the archvile's target amnesia..?

 

Another skill in the book is herding...

Where do you need monsters to be, so that you can accomplish your goals, and how do you need to move around, and at what pace, in order to get them there?

 

Next up is "projectile management"...

Running around a lot doesn't mean you're dodging well. When there is limited real estate to work with, you want to dodge projectiles such that you don't spread them out everywhere, instead, you'll want to dodge in measured steps to keep incoming projectiles "organized". If you then want to get past a "stream" of fireballs or whatnot, take a larger and faster step to the side, so the pattern "breaks open", allowing you to find a gap to slip through...

 

Situational awareness is a big one, of course...

What's the situation of the fight overall, where are most things, where is the most firepower coming from, and which way will be safest to move to next? You need to learn to keep track of the pieces on the board, otherwise you end up in situations you have not been able to anticipate, which results in a quick death in most cases...

 

Infighting, and also using monsters as cover is going to be required, and you want to make sure you understand at least the basic principles. Note that "causing monsters to infight" isn't necessarily the gateway to getting good at slaughter, certainly not to the degree many people would like to think it is. Obviously it's going to be required every so often, and ideally you want to get it going if there's a good opportunity to do so, but infighting can actually be incredibly dangerous to the player, due to how it spreads the monster's projectiles out across a larger area. Dying to a stray cyberdemon rocket that was not on the player's radar is anything but unheard of. Don't listen to people telling you that you always need to think about how to get infights going as if it were the be-all-end-all... Whether or not infighting is actually required depends on how the fight is staged in the first place. Infighting does primarily 2 things of interest: It increases your firepower indirectly, and it slows monsters down. You want to spend time on creating infights first and foremost if you need one or the other advantage, or both. If your firepower is entirely sufficient, and ammo isn't at a premium, then your time might be better spent on something else instead...

 

There's probably more I could mention, but I think this will help at least a bit... There's just one more thing:

SET YOUR SOURCEPORT UP PROPERLY!!!!

You don't want to run any and all slaughtermaps with GZDoom default settings. Run these maps in the targeted source port, with the recommended compatibility settings. Nothing you'll learn or do will do you any good when the way a fight should actually behave is getting broken by source port settings.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[TimeOfDeath666]

The best players tape their mouse button down so they never stop shooting.

[Woolie Wool]

For me, not panicking is the hardest thing about slaughter maps, really. The sheer daunting scale of them tickles my lizard brain instincts, and when they get in control everything else goes to shit and I run around like a headless chicken and then die.

[Ludi]

For the love of god, make sure you use a source port that goes well with slaughtermaps. PrBoom+ or Woof! are your best friends, and GZDoom should be cast to the side for these kinds of maps.

[LouigiVerona]

@Nine Inch Heels Thank you for your detailed post!

 

Would you then say that a lot of the slaughtermaps are indeed kind of tactical puzzles?

 

Both you and @Sr_Ludicolo mention the source ports. What kind of compatibility settings might be problematic? I've played Sunder, Quantum Strike and Abandon, all on gzdoom. Did not have immediate problems and when watching videos didn't see any differences either. What should I be looking out for here?

[Ludi]

8 minutes ago, LouigiVerona said:

@Nine Inch Heels Thank you for your detailed post!

 

Would you then say that a lot of the slaughtermaps are indeed kind of tactical puzzles?

 

Both you and @Sr_Ludicolo mention the source ports. What kind of compatibility settings might be problematic? I've played Sunder, Quantum Strike and Abandon, all on gzdoom. Did not have immediate problems and when watching videos didn't see any differences either. What should I be looking out for here?

 

GZDoom kinda borks a lot of slaughtermap gameplay. Here's the general rule of thumb:

 

Vanilla -complevel 2

Boom -complevel 9

MBF -complevel 11

MBF21 -complevel 21

[Nine Inch Heels]

29 minutes ago, LouigiVerona said:

Would you then say that a lot of the slaughtermaps are indeed kind of tactical puzzles?

They're not about "tactics"... Tactics is taking cover from enemy hitscans while your SSG reloads...

 

They're about strategy on a larger scale...

 

As far as source ports are considered: Unless specified otherwise, DSDA-Doom is the port you wanna be using, and then you want to launch the port alongside IWAD and PWAD with the recommended compatibility parameter via command line arguments. If you wanna make it easier, create a .bat file with all the necessary parameters, and just double click that to play...

 

https://dsdarchive.com/guides/dsda_doom

Edited April 16, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[Grain of Salt]

6 hours ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

The best players tape their mouse button down so they never stop shooting.

 

There's a shmup* where at the end of stages it gives you a bunch of ratings based on your gameplay, and one of them ("guts"?) was based purely on how many keypresses you've made, so some players jammed one of the buttons down with a coin in order to get the maximum rating. I think it was a button that didn't actually do anything, even.

 

* - iirc it was Raiden DX but i'm not sure.

[LouigiVerona]

21 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

They're not about "tactics"... Tactics is taking cover from enemy hitscans while your SSG reloads...

 

They're about strategy on a larger scale...

 

As far as source ports are considered: Unless specified otherwise, DSDA-Doom is the port you wanna be using, and then you want to launch the port alongside IWAD and PWAD with the recommended compatibility parameter via command line arguments. If you wanna make it easier, create a .bat file with all the necessary parameters, and just double click that to play...

 

https://dsdarchive.com/guides/dsda_doom

 

 

Right. But why wouldn't normal gzdoom work? What am I missing here? As I mentioned earlier, my experience playing these maps on gzdoom have been positive and I see no differences between what I see on my screen and demos on YouTube from skilled players.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 minute ago, LouigiVerona said:

 

 

Right. But why wouldn't normal gzdoom work? What am I missing here? As I mentioned earlier, my experience playing these maps on gzdoom have been positive and I see no differences between what I see on my screen and demos on YouTube from skilled players.

GZDoom may work, but it doesn't necessarily... And don't fall victim to the illusion that you actually see anywhere near enough in some demo made by someone else, where all you have to base your assumptions on is what the FOV of the player shows, while you cannot possibly tell what they're thinking in that moment, and what they're keeping track of in the back of their minds, or what manner of risks they have been taking in order to conduct their more or less optimized runs... Not everything you see in a demo by anyone is the most reliable strategy anyhow, and if all you do is to try and mimic what someone else does, while you're still lacking fundamental understanding in some areas, you're setting yourself up for a miserable experience...

 

Also: GZDoom default settings are not slaughter-friendly unless any given map caters to that port.... GZDoom vs DSDA doom may have differences in terms of how behind the scenes timers work, they may have differences in terms of how collisions work, they may have differences in terms of enemy behaviour, there may be differences in terms of "bugs" GZDoom (or ZDoom way back when) "fixed"... If there were no differences whatsoever, never mind a chance of any at all, people wouldn't mention independently of one another that you would do yourself a solid if you played with the recommended source-port, instead of playing on some other port that has been designed with an entirely different mindset, and entirely different design goals...

[LouigiVerona]

33 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

GZDoom may work, but it doesn't necessarily... And don't fall victim to the illusion that you actually see anywhere near enough in some demo made by someone else, where all you have to base your assumptions on is what the FOV of the player shows, while you cannot possibly tell what they're thinking in that moment, and what they're keeping track of in the back of their minds, or what manner of risks they have been taking in order to conduct their more or less optimized runs... Not everything you see in a demo by anyone is the most reliable strategy anyhow, and if all you do is to try and mimic what someone else does, while you're still lacking fundamental understanding in some areas, you're setting yourself up for a miserable experience...

 

Also: GZDoom default settings are not slaughter-friendly unless any given map caters to that port.... GZDoom vs DSDA doom may have differences in terms of how behind the scenes timers work, they may have differences in terms of how collisions work, they may have differences in terms of enemy behaviour, there may be differences in terms of "bugs" GZDoom (or ZDoom way back when) "fixed"... If there were no differences whatsoever, never mind a chance of any at all, people wouldn't mention independently of one another that you would do yourself a solid if you played with the recommended source-port, instead of playing on some other port that has been designed with an entirely different mindset, and entirely different design goals...

 

There might be a misunderstanding here. I am not arguing with you, I am simply curious why a specific source port is important.

[Nine Inch Heels]

15 minutes ago, LouigiVerona said:

 

There might be a misunderstanding here. I am not arguing with you, I am simply curious why a specific source port is important.

It's important because, in the general sense, source ports, and port behaviour isn't subject to "norms"... The ports do stuff corresponding to their design goals, where DSDA-Doom is meant to be the port that provides accurate behaviour whenever you set the correct compatibility level, while GZDoom does stuff only kinda, sorta, maybe, -ish roughly right, because the port caters more towards modders, and game-devs as an independent platform rather than trying to deliver a behaviour that is "historically accurate"... GZDoom does not care about delivering the exact same experience people had back in the early 90s - but with higher screen resolution. It might get most of the way there, but it's falling short the moment mappers employ methods that depend on very specific "quirks" GZDoom is unable to "emulate"... GZDoom may tell you that it has a "strict vanilla" compatibility setting, but it is, in fact, not vanilla. It may tell you it has a "strict boom" setting, but it is, in fact, not "boom" - and the GZDoom devs will never be upfront about this simple matter of fact, because that would be "bad PR"... Set DSDA-Doom to complevel 2, and you get actual vanilla, minus QOL stuff like screen resolution, and stuff like a better HUD...

 

And that is why, whenever this topic comes up, and someone says they need help, but doesn't specify their port of choice, you see recommendations to use DSDA-Doom for everything that isn't meant to be played with GZDoom specifically. It is the successor of PrBoom+, which has been the go-to previously in most cases when it came to slaughtermaps, and that status quo is never going to change, because different ports are there for different purposes...

Edited April 17, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[LouigiVerona]

Understood, thank you for the explanation, @Nine Inch Heels

[Valboom]

You can also use Crispy (vanilla/limit removing) and Woof.

[Mr Masker]

inner hatred

[SleepyVelvet]

4 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

...but it's falling short the moment mappers employ methods that depend on very specific "quirks" GZDoom is unable to "emulate"... GZDoom may tell you that it has a "strict vanilla" compatibility setting, but it is, in fact, not vanilla. It may tell you it has a "strict boom" setting, but it is, in fact, not "boom" - and the GZDoom devs will never be upfront about this simple matter of fact, because that would be "bad PR"... Set DSDA-Doom to complevel 2, and you get actual vanilla, minus QOL stuff like screen resolution, and stuff like a better HUD...

 

Not even "specific 'quirks'".  I've seen too many of my maps break under ZDoom based ports, not even the gimmicky ones.  I appreciate ZDoom for what it is and its accessibility etc, and I generally try to be stoic and humble about my maps - and half of them are shitposts anyways, but sometimes my pride seeps through the cracks and I have to grit my teeth when ZDoom fails and then get called a bad mapper.

 

I remember watching Suitepee play NoisyDiarrhea.wad, and some of the maps didn't function the same, especially the final Romero-head map, which broke in GZDoom because literally rocket collision and splash damage don't work the same. ^{(edit: Suitepee didn't call me a bad mapper here, just an example)}

Edited April 17, 2022 by NoisyVelvet

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, NoisyVelvet said:

but sometimes my pride seeps through the cracks and I have to grit my teeth when ZDoom fails and then get called a bad mapper

Except it's not a case of bad mapping, it's a user error since they didn't use the correct port.. Pointing that out has nothing to do with pride, and this spiel of "doesn't run in my favourite source port 0/5" needs to die a miserable death since yesteryear...

[Tango]

3 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

Understood, thank you for the explanation

 

fwiw basically any slaughter stuff I play personally is in gzdoom - the only thing that would really make me switch is if I wanted to play something that performed so poorly on gzdoom that I need dsda doom, but I usually don't play things quite on that scale anyhow. I acknowledge up front I'm not necessarily getting the "intended" experience, but at the end of the day I place a higher value on the QoL stuff that I've come to rely on. I am ok getting a slightly less than perfect experience as a tradeoff, and if something that I really want to play does end up breaking, then I can switch. but I can't remember the last time that actually happened

[D4NUK1]

8 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

 

 

Right. But why wouldn't normal gzdoom work? What am I missing here? As I mentioned earlier, my experience playing these maps on gzdoom have been positive and I see no differences between what I see on my screen and demos on YouTube from skilled players.

If you're not playing with the correct settings, you would play some maps really more easy and others more difficult as the general settings can do stuff like run enemies above you, making traps of Lost Souls or CacoDemons more forgetables. More difficulty as the aiming may not connect with the enemies desired as also the rocket detection changes,

RNG would be more lucky I guess, and for maps that use the partial invisibility sphere, would help more in GZDoom because they can't see you until you touch them or shoot.

Mostly Slaughermaps come to mind for Boom or PRDoom+, so if some maps play a little less difficult or hard could be for that.

 

But it's alright if you play like that, you only need to know that is another way to play that map's more "less vainilla", I personally use some mods to just destroy everything like Trailblazer, but it's obviously not how it's played.