Hey, can someone play my wad?

[ANonThingie!]

ANon: Hey again! Had a little chance to push on into Map05, thinking that we could do it quickly and oh boy... INCOMING!
 

Map 05:

ANon: Needing to do the subjective view first. Throwing a thought to the wind to try and understand the intent.
"A series of aggressive pushes against a few specific 'waves' with a bit of strategy and needing to preserve equipment."
While the intent seems fair... execution is B A D BAD. This level got to the point where trying to Single-Seg off a Pistol Start wasn't working. And issues with skill or not, the problem was on low reserves/low options. With little ammo before each encounter, we had to cheat and learn how to handle it. When we found what the first secret contained... Our reaction became bitter fast and yeah we can confirm the map with saves is 100%-able, but unlike the other maps... Single-Seg'ing in this state... No!

Monké: I like a fair fight, sometimes a unfair one. This one was on the opposite end of the easy/hard spectrum, compared to the previous maps. As ANon said, with little resources and not enough cover/room with the battles. The 'trench' wars became a problem and thus ANon started doing resource counting and tried a mix of aggressive mad dash runs and defensive crawls. In the end, the good [albelt saves used] run was using the secret Plasma and rushing through. Didn't feel like Single-Seg was fair to do. Fights were always close and in high numbers and even the Cyberdemon at the end felt out of place. I know the others don't like it, but if there was a small rebalance, it'd be alright.

Thingie!: On one hand, we liked the fact finding secrets is being taken advantage of. But, without the secrets the battles were soo hard :( ;( Also, this map, we believe also had inescapable pits... Welp, this certainly was a problem. One thing we wanna throw as a suggestion. Since secrets sometimes allow maps to have more room. Perhaps make a few secrets to give alternative routes to handling the fights :D. Giving the Player the advantage back or just to provide a retreat point, if you think it's too nice. You might be able to sneak an enemy in. We personally rather you didn't though. :D

Artie: With the presentation of this indoor space and outdoor area. There's more in the visuals to admire. Though only the computer terminal and dead forest are the highlight areas. They left more an impression on the mental image, picturing the map. We saw the others play this and on the casual end, didn't wish to try. Apologies, seemed too frantic.
 

ANon:
Critique: This map is brutal, not in a good way. The fights have a very Enemy Home Advantage feel, thanks to lack of Health and Ammo. [Ammunition does appear later in the map, but it's practically impossible to reach without relying on the Plasma Gun]
Improvement: This map requires some more staging in the encounters or redesigns to accommodate a good pacing between battles and chances to recover.
As is, when you get close to the Yellow Door, you need to be able to absorb a few blasts and try to rely on infighting. There's little respite for the Player. In fact, just to illustrate our point a little. Post-beating the map, there's an ENTIRE field of possible big battle potential, complete with tree line cover and the map focuses more on narrower compressed ambushes after ambushes. Both the Archviles and Pain Elementals [especially for the Pain Elementals on GZDooM's defaults] will definitely start filling up these areas and help weakening the Player's low reserves. To date Map05 was ruthless, causing burning ire in us and we HAD to bring it up as it certainly feels FAR too early in a megawad for a map to be like that.

This one was ROUGH and once again, we must leave. Back later.

[Powerhouse Willington]

15 minutes ago, ANonThingie! said:

ANon: Hey again! Had a little chance to push on into Map05, thinking that we could do it quickly and oh boy... INCOMING!
 

Map 05:

ANon: Needing to do the subjective view first. Throwing a thought to the wind to try and understand the intent.
"A series of aggressive pushes against a few specific 'waves' with a bit of strategy and needing to preserve equipment."
While the intent seems fair... execution is B A D BAD. This level got to the point where trying to Single-Seg off a Pistol Start wasn't working. And issues with skill or not, the problem was on low reserves/low options. With little ammo before each encounter, we had to cheat and learn how to handle it. When we found what the first secret contained... Our reaction became bitter fast and yeah we can confirm the map with saves is 100%-able, but unlike the other maps... Single-Seg'ing in this state... No!

Monké: I like a fair fight, sometimes a unfair one. This one was on the opposite end of the easy/hard spectrum, compared to the previous maps. As ANon said, with little resources and not enough cover/room with the battles. The 'trench' wars became a problem and thus ANon started doing resource counting and tried a mix of aggressive mad dash runs and defensive crawls. In the end, the good [albelt saves used] run was using the secret Plasma and rushing through. Didn't feel like Single-Seg was fair to do. Fights were always close and in high numbers and even the Cyberdemon at the end felt out of place. I know the others don't like it, but if there was a small rebalance, it'd be alright.

Thingie!: On one hand, we liked the fact finding secrets is being taken advantage of. But, without the secrets the battles were soo hard :( ;( Also, this map, we believe also had inescapable pits... Welp, this certainly was a problem. One thing we wanna throw as a suggestion. Since secrets sometimes allow maps to have more room. Perhaps make a few secrets to give alternative routes to handling the fights :D. Giving the Player the advantage back or just to provide a retreat point, if you think it's too nice. You might be able to sneak an enemy in. We personally rather you didn't though. :D

Artie: With the presentation of this indoor space and outdoor area. There's more in the visuals to admire. Though only the computer terminal and dead forest are the highlight areas. They left more an impression on the mental image, picturing the map. We saw the others play this and on the casual end, didn't wish to try. Apologies, seemed too frantic.
 

ANon:
Critique: This map is brutal, not in a good way. The fights have a very Enemy Home Advantage feel, thanks to lack of Health and Ammo. [Ammunition does appear later in the map, but it's practically impossible to reach without relying on the Plasma Gun]
Improvement: This map requires some more staging in the encounters or redesigns to accommodate a good pacing between battles and chances to recover.
As is, when you get close to the Yellow Door, you need to be able to absorb a few blasts and try to rely on infighting. There's little respite for the Player. In fact, just to illustrate our point a little. Post-beating the map, there's an ENTIRE field of possible big battle potential, complete with tree line cover and the map focuses more on narrower compressed ambushes after ambushes. Both the Archviles and Pain Elementals [especially for the Pain Elementals on GZDooM's defaults] will definitely start filling up these areas and help weakening the Player's low reserves. To date Map05 was ruthless, causing burning ire in us and we HAD to bring it up as it certainly feels FAR too early in a megawad for a map to be like that.

This one was ROUGH and once again, we must leave. Back later.

I've remained quiet the moment OP said the difficulty of these maps could be our fault, but reading this, I know I don't suck at this megawad, and it is in fact, unfair. I'm all for giving positive criticism, as I had asked OP to take it as such, but it feels as though he isn't listening when we're all saying it. 

 

Of course, OP, you're going to think these maps aren't that difficult, because you made them. You've replayed them over and over to the point of perfecting their encounters. We're not trying to be rude or aggressive when we say that these maps are hard. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Powerhouse Willington

[EPICALLL]

2 hours ago, Silent Wolf said:

I finished map08

Map08: Descent into Madness

- I like the central gimmick of descending to the bottom of an elevator shaft. I do think you could have put a higher tier monster near the switch, though.

-  There are way too many PE's in this map. At one point they completely block the way forward.

 

Do you want me to continue? My thoughts are basically the same for map09 as far as I've played.
 

If you would really like to get to the meat and potatoes that is map14, 18, and 23, then go for it.

[Silhouette 03]

4 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

If you would really like to get to the meat and potatoes that is map14, 18, and 23, then go for it.

I'm debating whether to continue, as it seems that you are ignoring the fact that people/playtesters are struggling with these maps, saying that it is our fault. If so many people are struggling, then there is something wrong with the megawad, not the player. I'm not trying to come off as harsh, I'm just trying to remain critical here. Take this as you will. 

[ANonThingie!]

@EPICALLL Quote: "I've come to realize that I'm just really good at doom. But still, if you have trouble, skill issue."
@Powerhouse Willington "I've remained quiet the moment OP said the difficulty of these maps could be our fault"
 

ANon: Hey! @Powerhouse Willington. That was somewhat the reason we became curious and just wanted to try and help out a bit. Apart from taking a bit and trying to plan for our work. :) We're starting to understand those difficulty spikes after starting to play through, some of the O_O "Oh no!" moments. Even if there's maybe dismissive feelings happening towards the general feedback. Still, you should honestly keep being willing to call out if it's rough. Got to answer the playtest call and speak your bit. Sometimes, it may actually be that kind of difficult/hardcore WAD the person's aiming for. But *throws our hands up* this is just us speculating. We don't know the context other than, "let's playtest this and see".
 

Something stuck after re-reading and decided to throw our two cents [If you're interested of course]:
Since the only part of the request was just have a go and playtest, no difficulty setting etc. Thought that it would be a typical UV request and even if that's the case. After giving Map 08 a go [and yes, we are aware it's one of the 'must replace' ones.] *Sighs* After getting to the final corridor, with the Pain Elementals [thank you @Silent Wolf for the warning.] The skill argument's beginning to wain. Checked the level on a weaker setting and while there's a decrease in enemies, it's still similar to the harder setting. Sensing there's a bias somewhere. There's clearly parts of this that's always limiting Player Agency/Options. That Pain Elemental corridor is honestly leaving us going "Was this designed with a certain playstyle in mind?"

Now thankfully for ourselves, we do tend to think with a few different perspectives and heck, we might've even made pushing horde levels too. So, it's cool... until you notice a lot of encounters do the same thing and you're struggling with resources. We're trying to do as hard a testing scenario as possible [we do TRY to test our own work under certain conditions too :)], since if this is the hardest combo "Single-Segment, Pistol Start, UV MAX" then everything else should be easier by proxy. Oh boy *laughs* yeah... Admittedly it's not the most gruelling we've played, it's just frustrating in those pincer portions of the levels.

We're going to keep trying but right now... First third's looking either plain or rough, depending on the level. Back a little later with more feedback from all of us. There were some bugs, though reading the previous posts... The mapper may or may not be aware of them already. *gives thumbs up to everyone* Again, thank you playtesting peoples for doing your bit. Sharing your insight definitely helped us not go in blind :D

[EPICALLL]

1 hour ago, Silent Wolf said:

I'm debating whether to continue, as it seems that you are ignoring the fact that people/playtesters are struggling with these maps, saying that it is our fault. If so many people are struggling, then there is something wrong with the megawad, not the player. I'm not trying to come off as harsh, I'm just trying to remain critical here. Take this as you will. 

Trying to keep it to my fault, I'm only pointing out things that were misunderstood. Sure, it is my fault as a designer that it wasn't more clear, but I feel the need to put this out there and say what I was attempting to do.

[EPICALLL]

When it comes to the difficulty, I'm not saying these maps are easy. They are indeed difficult. I'm trying to express that I myself never had an issue with them. Difficulty-wise, I'm going to make my maps more based on quality instead of quantity in encounters. Because when the enemies encounter you say... there's 10 on HMP, and 18 on UV... That's a steep increase. Which causes different difficulties to have a bit too much or too little. So really, while general difficulty is a player problem, segmented difficulty is my problem.

[Powerhouse Willington]

4 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

When it comes to the difficulty, I'm not saying these maps are easy. They are indeed difficult. I'm trying to express that I myself never had an issue with them. Difficulty-wise, I'm going to make my maps more based on quality instead of quantity in encounters. Because when the enemies encounter you say... there's 10 on HMP, and 18 on UV... That's a steep increase. Which causes different difficulties to have a bit too much or too little. So really, while general difficulty is a player problem, segmented difficulty is my problem.

Touching on the quantity thing, I decided to continue playing. I had this to say as an additional note between the next two maps. 

 

"Having played this far, seeing the enemy count vary drastically like it does makes me weary to commit to the next map. I will at least attempt to finish each level I play, but it's a bit overwhelming to go from 94 enemies to 256 between MAP08 and MAP09, knowing I just fought Barons and Pain Elementals in the former."

Are you still interested in feedback for more maps for this project since you're mentioning that you want to toss out and rework multiple maps?

Edited April 19, 2022 by Powerhouse Willington

[EPICALLL]

Just now, Powerhouse Willington said:

Touching on the quantity thing, I decided to continue playing. I had this to say as an additional note between the two maps. 

 

"Having played this far, seeing the enemy count vary drastically like it does makes me weary to commit to the next map. I will at least attempt to finish each level I play, but it's a bit overwhelming to go from 94 enemies to 256 between MAP08 and MAP09, knowing I just fought Barons and Pain Elementals in the former."

Are you still interested in feedback for more maps for this project since you're mentioning that you want to toss out and rework multiple maps?

Yeah, I still want feedback on the keepers, and maybe throw in some ideas for the replacements.

[CoolerDoomeR]

Hi there, i think it's better to choose a name for your wad, Not "can someone play my wad", Because it's a little unattractive.

And you need to practice to make a better wad buddy(it's not bad, it's just very simple). :)

[Powerhouse Willington]

Leaving some notes for MAP08 and MAP09 instead of doing 4-5 maps at a time because I realized some things that might help to know now rather than later. 

 

MAP08: The elevator gimmick could be fun if reworked and textures were pegged. Final Maze nearly wiped out my almost full ammo reserve. I UV-Maxed the map. Not fun at all.

MAP09: The beginning scenery is a decent change. Tree placement could be lessened/shifted for easier travel. Rebalancing/reworking the key rooms with more fun encounters would help this map immensely. Every time I opened a door, it reminded me of John Carpenter's "At the Mouth of Madness" when the monsters were charging at the main character. Not an important detail, but was just reminded of it. I UV-Maxed this level. Was better than MAP08. 

Another note: A lot of the rooms don't allow the player to go inside and THEN fight. You're typically stuck outside shooting in, which doesn't allow for different playstyles or problem solving. Opening up rooms and giving them some complexity will give this mapset a huge push in the right direction. MAP09 past the Red Skull door allowed for a bit of this. I wanted to push further in and fight once I was inside. The exit hallway did the opposite. It drew me in, but I retreated back to the outdoor area so I could maneuver a bit. Clearing a room, getting what's inside, and getting out shouldn't be so formulaic. 
 

[kalensar]

Oh I forget to mention. I play on HMP. On Map08 when I ran out of Ammo against the double PE closet after Blue Card on Pistol start, that was on HMP. When I said Map25 was unplayable basically from the beginning due to 3 cacodemons and no ammo, that was on HMP. When I beat and gave a grade on map24 from Pistol start, that was on HMP. 

These maps are not hard, they lack guns, and sometimes ammo.

--Map08 was definitely not intended to be Pistol started. AKA No, backpacks alone do not give enough ammo especially when you don't get the guns to use the rockets.

-- Map02 definitely not intended for pistol start. 50 bullets vs 25 shotgunners and a Baron right at the start. 

--Map25 was intended as a forced pistol start and is blatantly unfair for zero reason  and in the completely wrong way. I can name 1 Official map that was this rude ever and it at least gave the option of a secret Rocket Launcher during a pistol start. E4M4 Unruly Evil on Thy Flesh Consumed by American McGee.

 

Now if you want my definition of balance  between monster choice and battle arena: Look no further than Hellbound Map01. That entire map is gorgeous from beginning to end on use of monsters and environment, especially the Bank entrance room.

 

Continued

 

Map14 HMP--- Did not beat. Have fun with the skeleton trap.

 

Map23--- HAHAHAHAHAHAHA No. Gets jumped right at start by 1 or 2 imps, 3 Zomies, 2 shotgunners and a chaingunner steps around the corner befor you get time to do anything. I consider this a joke level opening.
 

Map23 opening -- And right past that door is a chaingunner. =D

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by kalensar
needed to add info

[magicsofa]

23 hours ago, EPICALLL said:

Map07 is also possible. In fact, it's kinda easy. Again, this is a you problem.

 

That's not great etiquette to say that to people who try your maps and think they are too hard. But Silent Wolf actually said the exit door was stuck, not that the map is hard.

I played starting at map07 and yeah... mostly hallways. My favorite part was the silver/blue area which had a kind of wolfenstein/doom1 vibe to it. You mix a lot of visual styles which I'm a fan of in general, but there could be more distinct separation between them rather than just a single door or step. Speaking of wolfenstein though, having so many 128-wide hallways on the grid gets monotonous. Most of the fights were just, shoot down the hallway, or run past the trap door. I ran past the cyberdemon and just waited for the barons to kill the spider, making both of those areas feel pretty pointless. The centrifuge thing with all the keys was... cute

 

Map08... please, please don't make your players wait. I don't start doom because I want to wait for things to happen. Even worse if I have to wait multiple times for the same thing to happen. Also hell knights in hallways might be a cool band name but it's not a fun to thing to do repetitively in doom.

Map09... bland hallways, hell knights, not feeling it here. Too much repetition. An outdoor area with some trees is nice - but spidering that same area around to all the locked doors turns it into another wolfenstein maze. 

Map10.. why is there cell ammo but no cell weapon? And come on, 5 cybies in a box? Only 2 sectors? Why?

Map11.. hanging corpse blocked my way.

 

Map12... is there even an exit? Bland hallways, infinite invulnerability.. ok


This has been talked about before, there's a tendency to want to fill up the map slots used by the IWADs, as if having 32 maps makes the player experience better. It doesn't. There is just so much "filler" here. Just hallways with monsters and repetitive encounters. Now if you are humbly beginning your mapping journey, that's great - there's nothing wrong with being a beginner and making beginner maps. But if you just keep pumping out beginner maps, you are not progressing. And furthermore, you are hitting people over the head with your maps to get them to play and then frequently arguing against people's criticism or making excuses as to why the maps are a certain way. It's just not a great attitude to have. (Good) Mapping is long, difficult, and sometimes tedious or frustrating. If you just want to have fun and make whatever you want, don't ask for advice. On the other hand if you really, really want to improve? You're gonna have to listen to things you don't want to hear. Things like "I would never play this unless it was to do you a favor."

 

So my advice to you is, start over. I know it sounds brutal, but it's just the reality of mapping. You can do much, much better. Take your time. If you completed a map in an hour or two, it's not good enough. If you made a hallway out of a single sector, it's not good enough. Put a computer terminal in it. A skylight. A pool of water. If you reused the same encounter more than once, it's not good enough. Make something different the second time. If your "city" map has only 4 buildings that are 256x256, it's not good enough. That's a joke of a city and you know it. Doom2 has better city maps. Study them - know that they are well below the modern standard but that you can still learn a lot about player movement, height variation, and not being stuck to the grid all the time. IWAD-level quality is your first goal. Reaching that doesn't require the insane hours needed for the ultra-detail found in gzdoom maps, thankfully, but it does require critical thought about the structure of your maps. You had map07 and map14 listed as "good"... I think you can do a lot better. Now doing 32 maps of significantly higher quality would take a very long time, so consider what others have already said: Try making one map, but ramp up the level of quality and care you put into each room and encounter. If you just have to do multiple maps, shoot for 5 maximum. (By the way, people are often more willing to jump into a set of 3, 5 or 7 maps than they are 32, so you'll have to spend less time strapping people to the chair to get them to play :P)

Edited April 19, 2022 by magicsofa

[MPS]

6 hours ago, EPICALLL said:

The zombiemen are looking at the books. They're purely there for decorative purposes.

 

Weird since some of them are facing another direction and doesn't look like it.

[EPICALLL]

1 hour ago, magicsofa said:

 

That's not great etiquette to say that to people who try your maps and think they are too hard. But Silent Wolf actually said the exit door was stuck, not that the map is hard.

I played starting at map07 and yeah... mostly hallways. My favorite part was the silver/blue area which had a kind of wolfenstein/doom1 vibe to it. You mix a lot of visual styles which I'm a fan of in general, but there could be more distinct separation between them rather than just a single door or step. Speaking of wolfenstein though, having so many 128-wide hallways on the grid gets monotonous. Most of the fights were just, shoot down the hallway, or run past the trap door. I ran past the cyberdemon and just waited for the barons to kill the spider, making both of those areas feel pretty pointless. The centrifuge thing with all the keys was... cute

 

Map08... please, please don't make your players wait. I don't start doom because I want to wait for things to happen. Even worse if I have to wait multiple times for the same thing to happen. Also hell knights in hallways might be a cool band name but it's not a fun to thing to do repetitively in doom.

Map09... bland hallways, hell knights, not feeling it here. Too much repetition. An outdoor area with some trees is nice - but spidering that same area around to all the locked doors turns it into another wolfenstein maze. 

Map10.. why is there cell ammo but no cell weapon? And come on, 5 cybies in a box? Only 2 sectors? Why?

Map11.. hanging corpse blocked my way.

 

Map12... is there even an exit? Bland hallways, infinite invulnerability.. ok


This has been talked about before, there's a tendency to want to fill up the map slots used by the IWADs, as if having 32 maps makes the player experience better. It doesn't. There is just so much "filler" here. Just hallways with monsters and repetitive encounters. Now if you are humbly beginning your mapping journey, that's great - there's nothing wrong with being a beginner and making beginner maps. But if you just keep pumping out beginner maps, you are not progressing. And furthermore, you are hitting people over the head with your maps to get them to play and then frequently arguing against people's criticism or making excuses as to why the maps are a certain way. It's just not a great attitude to have. (Good) Mapping is long, difficult, and sometimes tedious or frustrating. If you just want to have fun and make whatever you want, don't ask for advice. On the other hand if you really, really want to improve? You're gonna have to listen to things you don't want to hear. Things like "I would never play this unless it was to do you a favor."

 

So my advice to you is, start over. I know it sounds brutal, but it's just the reality of mapping. You can do much, much better. Take your time. If you completed a map in an hour or two, it's not good enough. If you made a hallway out of a single sector, it's not good enough. Put a computer terminal in it. A skylight. A pool of water. If you reused the same encounter more than once, it's not good enough. Make something different the second time. If your "city" map has only 4 buildings that are 256x256, it's not good enough. That's a joke of a city and you know it. Doom2 has better city maps. Study them - know that they are well below the modern standard but that you can still learn a lot about player movement, height variation, and not being stuck to the grid all the time. IWAD-level quality is your first goal. Reaching that doesn't require the insane hours needed for the ultra-detail found in gzdoom maps, thankfully, but it does require critical thought about the structure of your maps. You had map07 and map14 listed as "good"... I think you can do a lot better. Now doing 32 maps of significantly higher quality would take a very long time, so consider what others have already said: Try making one map, but ramp up the level of quality and care you put into each room and encounter. If you just have to do multiple maps, shoot for 5 maximum. (By the way, people are often more willing to jump into a set of 3, 5 or 7 maps than they are 32, so you'll have to spend less time strapping people to the chair to get them to play :P)

I'm trying not to be an asshole to people, I find it hard to form my thoughts into words. Other than that, yeah... That's pretty much exactly what I'm thinking lol

[ANonThingie!]

ANon: Chiming in... So did our best to marathon the playtesting and burn out kicked in right near the end. At the minute, we are mentally exhausted to give specific feedback on a level by level basic, as with the beginning posts. So, for right now going to give the summation. In short: There's hope for improvement, but this is a very rough start.

The playtest attempts were once again, Pistol Start UV in each map. Saves started to come out after a few hours... The levels were starting to take their toll on us.
Most of this set wasn't as hard a time [there were a few specific exceptions], as it had all started to blend into the same few encounters, just more from different angles. Meaning we became bored and desensitized to the majority of the content. Thankfully, Map 14 and 25 exist [along with a few short levels]. It did gave us some points to go over.

Here's the few positives: There were small moments that we did actually see/think "This has potential". Map 14: [Believe it's the night city level] Due to the over saturation of the same few corridor Wolf-esque maps. This was a welcome change of pace. Finally got to see a small model to play around in and it was fun. Enjoyed it. Now, we're burnt out as we said but the last map. Map 25: For the little we examined, the thought "They're improving" did surface and while there's still likely a fair number of detractions/concerns to find, there was at least SOMETHING to view and consider against the earlier work.

Here's the negatives: It boils down to repetitive level layout, unbalanced [and in some cases, reused] encounters and some technical hang-ups [but this ultimately depends on the version you released and your current working version with any differences]. Going to add predictable enemy layouts too. There were a few cases where the map symmetry betrayed the traps... Think an example was Map 15.

Reading some of the suggestions about restarting seem like a good course of action, but gonna give you some a small piece of advice. At the very least, try your best to conclude your work on your mega-wad project, in a way which will be satisfactory to you. If nothing else, being able to declare a finished project then gives you a fundamental basis on where to go next and plan a way, how to improve upon it. Seen too many people become disheartened when their first project didn't complete and it takes a while to even re-motivate for something new. Avoid this, unless you yourself just want to stop on your own terms.

Be back later and we'll try and push some opinions and improvements later, when all of us aren't wanting to pass out.
Gonna be having Baron Of Hell related nightmares tonight. Bye everyone.

[Powerhouse Willington]

I finished the wad.

 

MAP10: Initial reaction was "GTFOH" upon opening the door. Took me some time to realize the gimmick. This map needs to be larger, more cover, and would be the best time to give the player the BFG9000 if you intend on it being available, which is fair if you drop the "End Normal" kill gimmick. Otherwise, cut this map entirely. 

 

MAP11: Beginning ambush wasn't too difficult, but low health might create a softlock. I had to crouch to reach the button in the first medical lab. Wasn't expecing the "End Normal" gimmick kill.

 

MAP12: I paused the game and stared at the screen for a good 30 seconds before deciding I wanted to attempt it. Several Cacos and Arachnotrons were set to friendly. I tried to make a mad dash to the ending to get this over with, but the map had no formal exit switch. Again, another "End Normal" kill gimmick on a Cyberdemon. I see no conceivable way to salvage this map. 

 

MAP13: Obviously, hallways have been touched on in previous maps. The lava floor should probably be removed due to insufficient health(floor damage is set to max per damaging game-tic). Another "End Normal" kill gimmick on a Cyberdemon. Being forced to end a level like this is quickly growing tedious. 

 

MAP14: Change of scenery is a positive. The narrow hallways make more sense on this level since it's tied to its theme. I appreciate the occasional Hellknight in the buildings as opposed to potentially a lot of them, and any of them being Barons. Rooftop fights were a little tight, but enjoyable. Nice, quick, and fun map. Definitely keep/salvage this one. 
Additional Note: Looking at the map in Ultimate Doom Builder after-the-fact, I realized there were two whole buildings I didn't even get to go inside of. The teleporter in one of the buildings definitely rushed me to the end of the map. 

 

MAP15: This map feels unnecessarily long. Key hunting through lots of enemies in hallway mazes isn't fun. Red Skull Key hallway didn't open up with the Lost Souls hidden inside, so 100% kills isn't possible on this map. The Cyberdemon at the midpoint was unexpected. Didn't care for the Arch-Vile hallway. The Arch-Vile is an enemy for special occasions/encounters. Throwing him around randomly will make a map tiring very quickly. Again, another "End Normal" kill gimmick on a Spiderdemon this time. 

 

MAP16: FINALLY, THE BFG9000! The map up to that point has still been narrow hallways and Barons, but I honestly wasn't expecting the BFG whatsoever. It made the Cyberdemon encounter easy, but it was ultimately unnecessary. 

 

MAP17: Shotgunner ambush isn't necessary. The maze is fucked. Had I not found the invulnerability, I wouldn't have managed to rush straight to the end. 

 

MAP18: Not sure what caused it, but the teleporter stopped working for a minute once the Arch-Vile was telefragged. Found the beginning BFG secret by complete accident looking for the final enemy. 

 

MAP19: I liked the reference to Entryway from DOOM 2. The lava pit is inescapable at the normal/blue key door. The Cyberdemon fight can be tedious if you have to fight him with rockets only. 

MAP20: The beginning wasn't too bad. Texture/Floor height could be adjusted for aesthetics. Once past the Imp/Revenant room, I didn't care for the rest of the map. "End Normal" kill gimmick on the Spiderdemon wasn't expected, and not something I was looking forward to. 

 

MAP21: Map was alright until the massive enemy pit and the "End Normal" kill gimmick on the Spiderdemon came about. 

 

MAP22: Nothing special about this map. The Revenant closet after picking up the key had me zoning out. I'm writing notes after playing and trying to remember anything else besides the unnecessary Cyberdemon at the end that I dashed past. 

 

 

MAP23: Starting this map with low ammo/wrong weapon will almost definitely get you killed. The teleporter into the Hellknight ambush is too much. The blinking room was difficult to navigate. Might be a photosensitivity issue? The Arch-Vile in the maze is fucked. I was hoping the switch would kick on the lights, but it just got worse. I God moded my way to the end. I couldn't be bothered to take the rest on with patience. Also, the Chasm room glitched and I ended up inside a wall as if I were noclipping. 

 

MAP24: This is the 3rd? map to start with the same 4 pillars in the center of the room. The map layout is a little better than the usual hallway mazes, but it still retains elements of that. The repeating maze of rooms with hitscanners everywhere is an absolute slog and wholly unncessary. There is so much to this map that I don't understand, like why is the ending a fall jump into zero health? Not gonna lie, I noclipped and God-moded trying to find the exit. 

 

MAP25: Not at all happy that I'm being forced to Pistol start. I think I'm burned out on this mapset at this point. Yeah, naw. 596 monsters at pistol start and nothing but a shotgun? Nope. God mode and Give All cheat was used to at least explore. I got lost after 200 kills. Went straight to the exit out of frustration. 
 

[EPICALLL]

3 hours ago, Powerhouse Willington said:

I finished the wad.

 

MAP10: Initial reaction was "GTFOH" upon opening the door. Took me some time to realize the gimmick. This map needs to be larger, more cover, and would be the best time to give the player the BFG9000 if you intend on it being available, which is fair if you drop the "End Normal" kill gimmick. Otherwise, cut this map entirely. 

 

MAP11: Beginning ambush wasn't too difficult, but low health might create a softlock. I had to crouch to reach the button in the first medical lab. Wasn't expecing the "End Normal" gimmick kill.

 

MAP12: I paused the game and stared at the screen for a good 30 seconds before deciding I wanted to attempt it. Several Cacos and Arachnotrons were set to friendly. I tried to make a mad dash to the ending to get this over with, but the map had no formal exit switch. Again, another "End Normal" kill gimmick on a Cyberdemon. I see no conceivable way to salvage this map. 

 

MAP13: Obviously, hallways have been touched on in previous maps. The lava floor should probably be removed due to insufficient health(floor damage is set to max per damaging game-tic). Another "End Normal" kill gimmick on a Cyberdemon. Being forced to end a level like this is quickly growing tedious. 

 

MAP14: Change of scenery is a positive. The narrow hallways make more sense on this level since it's tied to its theme. I appreciate the occasional Hellknight in the buildings as opposed to potentially a lot of them, and any of them being Barons. Rooftop fights were a little tight, but enjoyable. Nice, quick, and fun map. Definitely keep/salvage this one. 
Additional Note: Looking at the map in Ultimate Doom Builder after-the-fact, I realized there were two whole buildings I didn't even get to go inside of. The teleporter in one of the buildings definitely rushed me to the end of the map. 

 

MAP15: This map feels unnecessarily long. Key hunting through lots of enemies in hallway mazes isn't fun. Red Skull Key hallway didn't open up with the Lost Souls hidden inside, so 100% kills isn't possible on this map. The Cyberdemon at the midpoint was unexpected. Didn't care for the Arch-Vile hallway. The Arch-Vile is an enemy for special occasions/encounters. Throwing him around randomly will make a map tiring very quickly. Again, another "End Normal" kill gimmick on a Spiderdemon this time. 

 

MAP16: FINALLY, THE BFG9000! The map up to that point has still been narrow hallways and Barons, but I honestly wasn't expecting the BFG whatsoever. It made the Cyberdemon encounter easy, but it was ultimately unnecessary. 

 

MAP17: Shotgunner ambush isn't necessary. The maze is fucked. Had I not found the invulnerability, I wouldn't have managed to rush straight to the end. 

 

MAP18: Not sure what caused it, but the teleporter stopped working for a minute once the Arch-Vile was telefragged. Found the beginning BFG secret by complete accident looking for the final enemy. 

 

MAP19: I liked the reference to Entryway from DOOM 2. The lava pit is inescapable at the normal/blue key door. The Cyberdemon fight can be tedious if you have to fight him with rockets only. 

MAP20: The beginning wasn't too bad. Texture/Floor height could be adjusted for aesthetics. Once past the Imp/Revenant room, I didn't care for the rest of the map. "End Normal" kill gimmick on the Spiderdemon wasn't expected, and not something I was looking forward to. 

 

MAP21: Map was alright until the massive enemy pit and the "End Normal" kill gimmick on the Spiderdemon came about. 

 

MAP22: Nothing special about this map. The Revenant closet after picking up the key had me zoning out. I'm writing notes after playing and trying to remember anything else besides the unnecessary Cyberdemon at the end that I dashed past. 

 

 

MAP23: Starting this map with low ammo/wrong weapon will almost definitely get you killed. The teleporter into the Hellknight ambush is too much. The blinking room was difficult to navigate. Might be a photosensitivity issue? The Arch-Vile in the maze is fucked. I was hoping the switch would kick on the lights, but it just got worse. I God moded my way to the end. I couldn't be bothered to take the rest on with patience. Also, the Chasm room glitched and I ended up inside a wall as if I were noclipping. 

 

MAP24: This is the 3rd? map to start with the same 4 pillars in the center of the room. The map layout is a little better than the usual hallway mazes, but it still retains elements of that. The repeating maze of rooms with hitscanners everywhere is an absolute slog and wholly unncessary. There is so much to this map that I don't understand, like why is the ending a fall jump into zero health? Not gonna lie, I noclipped and God-moded trying to find the exit. 

 

MAP25: Not at all happy that I'm being forced to Pistol start. I think I'm burned out on this mapset at this point. Yeah, naw. 596 monsters at pistol start and nothing but a shotgun? Nope. God mode and Give All cheat was used to at least explore. I got lost after 200 kills. Went straight to the exit out of frustration. 
 

holy fuck

 

[EPICALLL]

As a whole, I need to take a step back. I'm going to put this wad on the backburner until I feel confident enough in my ability to make a good map.
But some exit notes:
- keep encounters in the room, not in the door to the room.
- subvert. expectations. always.

- Gimmicks are cool, but they are just gimmicks, not something the whole level should revolve around
- City maps CAN be executed well if given enough enemy and environmental variety
- Map14 and map01 are FAR better than the rest
- "End Normal" Should be avoided
- Always remember to clearly indicate exits
- Use the outdoors.
- Attention to detail is a tool.
- Claustrophobia can either be executed very well or very poorly
- Try to vary hallway width
- stay off of the grid lines
- Atmosphere is cool, obviously
- Find the right amount of enemies, and stick with it. Always refrain from adding enemies on different difficulties, but rather change the items that spawn.
- Take time
- Skill issues only apply in generalized situations, not specific encounters or maps.
I'm going to make a 11 map miniwad. (10 maps and 1 secret) to test my qualitative steel.

Edited April 19, 2022 by EPICALLL
detail

[kalensar]

 

8 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

As a whole, I need to take a step back. I'm going to put this wad on the backburner until I feel confident enough in my ability to make a good map.
But some exit notes:
- keep encounters in the room, not in the door to the room.
- subvert. expectations. always.

- Gimmicks are cool, but they are just gimmicks, not something the whole level should revolve around
- City maps CAN be executed well if given enough enemy and environmental variety
- Map14 and map01 are FAR better than the rest
- "End Normal" Should be avoided
- Always remember to clearly indicate exits
- Use the outdoors.
- Attention to detail is a tool.
- Claustrophobia can either be executed very well or very poorly
- Try to vary hallway width
- stay off of the grid lines
- Atmosphere is cool, obviously
- Find the right amount of enemies, and stick with it. Always refrain from adding enemies on different difficulties, but rather change the items that spawn.
- Take time
- Skill issues only apply in generalized situations, not specific encounters or maps.
I'm going to make a 11 map miniwad. (10 maps and 1 secret) to test my qualitative steel.

AS an aside, you definitely have the ropes of map making. You seem to have no lack when it comes to map building floor foundations or executing ideas. Those are excellent skills. With just a tiny bit more practice, and less rushing of level building, you will definitely produce some excellent and fun maps. Your style of mapping was very fun to explore for the mostly. Map01 had me hooked and I liked the classical style aesthetic you are oriented around. You have a Sandy Petersen quality to your map making, as in not afraid to get experimental and try different ideas, and that is a hard modality to find. 

[EPICALLL]

3 hours ago, kalensar said:

 

AS an aside, you definitely have the ropes of map making. You seem to have no lack when it comes to map building floor foundations or executing ideas. Those are excellent skills. With just a tiny bit more practice, and less rushing of level building, you will definitely produce some excellent and fun maps. Your style of mapping was very fun to explore for the mostly. Map01 had me hooked and I liked the classical style aesthetic you are oriented around. You have a Sandy Petersen quality to your map making, as in not afraid to get experimental and try different ideas, and that is a hard modality to find. 

map18, hence it's name, was made with the same level design rules as john romero.
(
1. claustrophobic paths open into large areas
2. strict texture alignment
3. obvious secrets
4. make everything just BARELY possible
)
just a sidenote.

[magicsofa]

2 hours ago, EPICALLL said:

I'm trying not to be an asshole to people

It's ok, I didn't think you were. Just keep in mind at all times that criticism, while important, is subjective - and something that you get to decide when to follow it, and when to depart from it.

[knifeworld]

Played a bunch of times thru GZDoom 4.7.1 but got bored after map 14 or so. I liked the atmospheric parts of some maps, or rooms that were more elaborate.. but a lot of this mapset was just linear tunnels + key hunting over and over again.
I didn't find the ammo too lacking tbh, but that's probably because I typically play continuously rather than pistol starting.
Every map up until "The Labyrinth" was generally quite easy.. they were often just frustrating to complete.


Feedback on specific maps:
There is a missing texture outside in MAP01


MAP02 would have been saved if you added the SSG, but otherwise it's boring to fight the revenants and this useless group of hellknights that just drain your ammo


in MAP03 The last of the 3 doors here can only be opened once, There's also no point in the doors being there anyway because you pick up the yellow key right before you enter the hallway.

Instead you could remove the 3 yellow doors and turn the hallway into a room that once cleared acts like a shortcut to the yellow exit door, you could have a door that is only openable from inside this new room (so you can't just walk in there early and grab the yellow key anyway).. Perhaps the new room has ammo or health in it, some reason to stick and around in there, some tougher enemies to block your path because you picked up the key that opens the exit.
Example:


On MAP05 this secret is completely unclear BTW, there's no slightly different texture, no candle, or mysterious item placement either.
There are a few secrets with absolutely no hints in other maps, too..


Some of these Mancubi are still stuck since Decino's video about the map.
That entire valley is annoying TBH, there is nowhere to go until you kill quite a lot of the ground level monsters.. The trees block your path and are even more obnoxious because you get stuck when trying to avoid lost souls that emerge from above, and the revenants at the end, and (i think) one revenant higher up that can snipe you.


This room in MAP07 is frustrating and seems mostly pointless, the cyberdemons in the lava pits are useless and near unkillable without mouselook and they can snipe you when you're trying to walk around the edge to grab keys and ammo. I had to slowly kill all the imps and HKs from far away to avoid getting blocked and eating a cyber rocket

This exit door never opened with any keys, use actions, or shooting.. with any compat settings..


This switch on MAP11 is unreachable and can't be pressed, i gave up here on my first playthrough, I noclipped to the switch during the second playthrough..


Back to Darkness:
I think you could make great use of the only dark area in Darkness, you could set up a fight in there or a visual spectacle that adds to the atpmosphere, evil eyes, dramatically bright or dark pillar or gore decorations.. just anything but a completely empty room.. A second dark room could be a good replacement for that annoying canyon, too.



The GOOD/not too bad parts that I liked: (Spoliered because long post)

Spoiler

Other than the levels feeling unfinished or repetitive, there is the issue that you still have IWAD content, from TNT and DOOM..
(Also spoliered because long post)

Spoiler

And the sprites for every monster are still there too:


The organization of all the lumps is also a total mess, TBH, I can only guess that GZDoom is managing to search for stuff without regard to markers, or is clever enough to just pull stuff from the TNT IWAD itself. Pretty sure other ports would instantly refuse to load this wad, with this level of disorganization.


For example, what on earth even happened here?!?
My only guess is that you might have copied stuff from an IWAD during testing and then accidentally messed up a bunch of lumps somehow.



A screenshot proving this wad used to contain the TNT and DOOM IWADS for some reason:

As shown in decino's video:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

(spoilering because this reply is already becoming too long)

You only need to tell people to load TNT as the IWAD, and I suppose to also run with a DOOM 1 graphics patch loaded too, I know there is one around but I forgot the name and author.. I personally haven't needed to use it yet.
You really do need to clean this wad up, remove the IWAD stuff, improve the maps based on feedback.. In other words, it needs to go back in the oven!!


Oh yeah BTW, invulnerabilty spheres completely crash GZDoom for me in this wad, no matter what IWAD i load or what compat settings I choose.. I don't know what's going on with that.
One more thing... the doomguy face is somehow misaligned, wonder what's happening there too.


I hope you understand the constructive feedback people are giving you here, we're trying to help you get better at mapping, all in all you made a decent attempt, it's not totally crap but it's not groundbreaking or well organized either. Good luck with your next WAD!

Edited April 19, 2022 by knifeworld
clarifying some points and spoilering stuff to shorten length

[ANonThingie!]

ANon: *Sighs* Thanks to a very bad attempt at gathering rest, we're back to conclude earlier than intended. We're going to try and organise our thoughts for the remainder of the levels and possibly add some two cents to something in the thread, as it provoked a thought. Roll up, it's time to go through a big list, generalising where possible. Artie was mostly indifferent or in some specific areas not a fan of the presentation, so in general an improvement to focus on transitions and be more freeform is the best advice there. Mapping's like art really, it comes in different flavours. 
This point was something we felt like we needed to say. as we did get reminded of it. Some design choices can possibly confuse or provoke feelings of illness. Be careful about your choice of lighting. What @magicsofa said about criticism being subjective is actually what brought up this point. We are 90% in agreement to that statement, but then sometimes a design choice might actually cause outliers' issues [stuff like colour-blindness, motion-sickness, etc]. Just an important point as some of these maps for us became very difficult, without lighting adjustment to move on. Anyway, review time [We'll be combining points to save space], Let's go!

Map 06: Monké thought the final Chain gunner pit was a neat idea. Thingie! didn't really like the fact the secret was pretty much near the end of the level. This level would be a good point to help try and break up the corridor effect. An Improvement would be to provide a few rooms as part of the routes through the section. Another improvement can be to provide two routes to start with, offering players a choice in dealing with the level.

Map 07: Thingie! found the level's busted but that seems to be reported. They also liked the fact that the level is somewhat optional. The secrets are connected to the optional paths. This is actually rather cool, liked the idea. Monké found that when going for the Kills. The lift switch for the Yellow Key... It's repeatable and can cause a soft lock. Artie had problems with this level in terms of the overuse of sliver. Dark areas were used, but thankfully small enough here.

Map 08: Monké salutes the people who had the patience to UV-MAX this. We've got a fair bit of training ahead it seems. Biggest problem can be seen either as not enough ammo or too many spawners [Pain Elementals]. Artie is going to give credit to you for not pegging the elevator support tex. It actually helps work out how far you've moved down.

Map 09: Everyone thinks the excess trees here, bad choice. They became a navigation problem. Level itself was alright.

Map 10: Even Monké got angry and as one who likes battles and combat focused maps... focusing fire on a single Cyber demon became a chore and this is one of the few maps, we HAD to veto. The EASY skill setting is the fairest fight but there's a fair few problems. Let's talk fixes. If you're sticking with conventional EASY/NORMAL/HARD skill settings by choice. Doing 1 Cyber = EASY, 2 Cybers = NORMAL and 3 Cybers = HARD would be a good start. Let's try a couple more improvements: Using line blockers to control Cyber demon placement, you can easily control quadrants and restrict their movements and allow focus shots and still have overlapping fire easy. Varied towers can be used to promote harder engagements and make it interesting. Super important, as some players will play Pistol Start or Continuous. Ensure all ammo placed isn't wasted.

Map 11: It's a rather simple breather map. Some people might suggest curves of difficulty, others 'peaks and valleys'. This is a nice valley map, detailing is low but does make a good basis for a short encounter. Suggestion would be take maps like this and play with them in the editor, make additions and see how adding a few extras might make a big difference.

Map 12: Monké: "Didn't like, Invulnerabilities made it too easy". Artie: "The Invulnerabilities made it easy for us to play" Thingie!: *too busy collecting the items*
We're indecisive about how this map played. We definitely think it's on the lower detailing side. Apart from the main room, everything's the same shape, texture, size... Maybe a simple edit is play with the verticality of the map. Struggling to think of much to say.

Map 13: Thingie!: Consistency issue, perhaps. Shootable triggers can sometimes be a thing people might miss [We've gotten a fair bit of experience with that trick].

Map 14: Concluding Part 2. We are going to go back to our normal feedback/review standard for this level.

Artie: Ah! A rather attractive city based map, complete with some form of terrain damage and clear aura of corruption. The buildings and interiors do leave a sense of emptiness, but that can be indicative of the fact the city's block is completely destroyed and abandoned. This, with the skybox is rather charming. We loved this little area. Nicely done.
Thingie!: So, truth be told, we weren't really sure about the secret. We had to jump up to tag it and if your note is true about the levels, then we didn't find the activator. Still though nice attempt at a 3D space. Cool :D
Monké: Combat's tame.

ANon: [Love/Play/Hate]: This would be a play, maybe a replay to admire the location one more time.
Anyway, this concludes the second or three updates... back very soon with the conclusion.

Edited April 20, 2022 by ANonThingie!
Modifying Presentation for Effect. [No Text Change]

[EPICALLL]

39 minutes ago, ANonThingie! said:

ANon: *Sighs* Thanks to a very bad attempt at gathering rest, we're back to conclude earlier than intended. We're going to try and organise our thoughts for the remainder of the levels and possibly add some two cents to something in the thread, as it provoked a thought. Roll up, it's time to go through a big list, generalising where possible. Artie was mostly indifferent or in some specific areas not a fan of the presentation, so in general an improvement to focus on transitions and be more freeform is the best advice there. Mapping's like art really, it comes in different flavours. 
This point was something we felt like we needed to say. as we did get reminded of it. Some design choices can possibly confuse or provoke feelings of illness. Be careful about your choice of lighting. What @magicsofa said about criticism being subjective is actually what brought up this point. We are 90% in agreement to that statement, but then sometimes a design choice might actually cause outliers' issues [stuff like colour-blindness, motion-sickness, etc]. Just an important point as some of these maps for us became very difficult, without lighting adjustment to move on. Anyway, review time [We'll be combining points to save space], Let's go!

Map 06: Monké thought the final Chain gunner pit was a neat idea. Thingie! didn't really like the fact the secret was pretty much near the end of the level. This level would be a good point to help try and break up the corridor effect. An Improvement would be to provide a few rooms as part of the routes through the section. Another improvement can be to provide two routes to start with, offering players a choice in dealing with the level.

Map 07: Thingie! found the level's busted but that seems to be reported. They also liked the fact that the level is somewhat optional. The secrets are connected to the optional paths. This is actually rather cool, liked the idea. Monké found that when going for the Kills. The lift switch for the Yellow Key... It's repeatable and can cause a soft lock. Artie had problems with this level in terms of the overuse of sliver. Dark areas were used, but thankfully small enough here.

Map 08: Monké salutes the people who had the patience to UV-MAX this. We've got a fair bit of training ahead it seems. Biggest problem can be seen either as not enough ammo or too many spawners [Pain Elementals]. Artie is going to give credit to you for not pegging the elevator support tex. It actually helps work out how far you've moved down.

Map 09: Everyone thinks the excess trees here, bad choice. They became a navigation problem. Level itself was alright.

Map 10: Even Monké got angry and as one who likes battles and combat focused maps... focusing fire on a single Cyber demon became a chore and this is one of the few maps, we HAD to veto. The EASY skill setting is the fairest fight but there's a fair few problems. Let's talk fixes. If you're sticking with conventional EASY/NORMAL/HARD skill settings by choice. Doing 1 Cyber = EASY, 2 Cybers = NORMAL and 3 Cybers = HARD would be a good start. Let's try a couple more improvements: Using line blockers to control Cyber demon placement, you can easily control quadrants and restrict their movements and allow focus shots and still have overlapping fire easy. Varied towers can be used to promote harder engagements and make it interesting. Super important, as some players will play Pistol Start or Continuous. Ensure all ammo placed isn't wasted.

Map 11: It's a rather simple breather map. Some people might suggest curves of difficulty, others 'peaks and valleys'. This is a nice valley map, detailing is low but does make a good basis for a short encounter. Suggestion would be take maps like this and play with them in the editor, make additions and see how adding a few extras might make a big difference.

Map 12: Monké: "Didn't like, Invulnerabilities made it too easy". Artie: "The Invulnerabilities made it easy for us to play" Thingie!: *too busy collecting the items*
We're indecisive about how this map played. We definitely think it's on the lower detailing side. Apart from the main room, everything's the same shape, texture, size... Maybe a simple edit is play with the verticality of the map. Struggling to think of much to say.

Map 13: Thingie!: Consistency issue, perhaps. Shootable triggers can sometimes be a thing people might miss [We've gotten a fair bit of experience with that trick].

Map 14: Concluding Part 2. We are going to go back to our normal feedback/review standard for this level.

Artie: Ah! A rather attractive city based map, complete with some form of terrain damage and clear aura of corruption. The buildings and interiors do leave a sense of emptiness, but that can be indicative of the fact the city's block is completely destroyed and abandoned. This, with the skybox is rather charming. We loved this little area. Nicely done.
Thingie!: So, truth be told, we weren't really sure about the secret. We had to jump up to tag it and if your note is true about the levels, then we didn't find the activator. Still though nice attempt at a 3D space. Cool :D
Monké: Combat's tame.

ANon: [Love/Play/Hate]: This would be a play, maybe a replay to admire the location one more time.
Anyway, this concludes the second or three updates... back very soon with the conclusion.

I am very appreciative of your commitment. 👍

Thank you:)

[ANonThingie!]

ANon: Time to bring it home! Final Part! To illustrate how drained we got, very little chime ins with the others here.

Map 15: Thingie! found a break. It's the area where Lost Souls hide in the walls, believe with the SLADWALL tex. [can't remember the exact name]. The trap doesn't spring. Apart from that, this is one of the Wolf-Corridor maps, which dragged on a tad too long. This also used the monster death exit calls and if we're reading the notes properly... You can use monster death exits, but it's handy to somehow convey that in order to beat the level, a monster needs killed. ACS Print statements before entering the final chamber, or custom message texture can help here.

Map 16: Ah yes! The level which the 100% run started causing us grief. Now we can't speak for everyone, but two-tapping BFG Cyber kills aren't always something we can do on command. Monké enjoys the final spike a little, Thingie! and Artie blew a gasket at that bit. This definitely felt like a valley map at first and when this came up, it became unfun for us. This level also was where the "Where will the Cyber demon be in the level?" minigame started popping in our heads. Now this can be an argument for player skill ruining it and it's possible to just ignore them... But open arenas can be a problem.

Map 17: *snaps pencil* All we are going to say here... This maze was not fun! The only thing that we can't verify is continuous players MIGHT have an easier experience.

Map 18: We managed to beat this one. However, this shares a problem with Map 05. Without the secret, can't imagine doing the level. The claustrophobia in this map is ridiculous! *sighs* Since now we know why the level was designed and named the way it was, we'll leave a note to talk about that another day. We can't think of an easy fix for this. 

Map 19: We, unlike most people, don't like call back maps. There's something off about the map in general... it's incredibly hard to convey. So, what what we can say is this. This was much simpler to approach than the previous one. If you can find a happy medium between your easy and your hardest moments... Some of these encounters might actually be addressable, as there's a fair bit of foreshadowing. Other than the advice, this map was okay...

Map 20: No... The amount of Cybers in this was just unnecessary.

Map 21: Almost glad we didn't try to stream this... Our favourite bit rate killer texture is back. FIREBLU! Our playthrough of this ended up Door Fighting a lot just by the massive arena door. Also, a note about the Invulnerability by the Spider Mastermind. This is why we think your encounter structure is oddly misplaced. The Spider Mastermind at this bit is incredibly weak to you, thanks to the retreat passage you came from. It's also possible to Zerg Rush a Spider Mastermind with the Plasma Gun at high health... chances are, she's gonna get stunned. A LOT! This is one of the lower rated maps for sure.

Map 22: One of the secrets was just barely able to be tagged! A valley map with a twist [at least it might have worked if Cybers weren't common in the set]. The final room could have been a nice wake up call for the final act in this mega-wad. But, we were expecting it & now it's like clockwork.

Map 23: Excuse us a sec! *goes outside and screams profanities into the sky and comes back composed* Needed that scream! We're giving you a visual picture of how things went in this level. So, consider this us contextualising our feelings. We hated this! This... is just mean spirited and frankly too annoying to bother... BUT we did! with "GIVE INFRARED" because we needed it.

Baron Bodyguards, close range, with Rockets as nearby available ammo!
Darkness which we personally needed to use the visor cheat in order to see ANYTHING!
Chasm-like level design near the end with platforming and a range of Hitscan and Projectile threats along with rude awakening enemies at last door.
Inescapable pits.
Starting room with Hitscanner advantage [DEFINITELY FUN IF YOU USE UV+]
Multi monster closeted enemy exit! [Few enemies, sure. But after Hell Knights that we very likely able to kill us just outside...]

Sad thing is... We also think, you were starting to change your approach and improve a little too, by this point!
The sector train! It is admittedly cute and simple, but you HAD to take time to add that in.
Room variation and as much as we hate strobe/flicker lights, you still tried a moodier presentation.
There's stuff here to indicate capability, but consider we're deep into the marathon this level does quite a few infuriating elements... This is where our collective patience broke.

Map 24 and 25: In the sake of fair play, since Map 23 was TIME TO STOP!. Map 24 is and for now, will be the last Map to mention properly. We were heavily fatigued but there were some nice elements to this map. Map 14 demonstrated that you had an eye to present an environment and do something striking. Map 24 demonstrates [not perfectly] that you're getting more mechanically knowledgeable about how spaces should/n't work. Now the wooden E1M4 Card Hunt Area, you have to understand with most of the feedback we've given. This section felt copy pasted like the Wolf-Corridors. It stuck as a weak element. The 'ending' [we think, based on the Map Clue and others here on the thread. Thanks to everyone else, your insight definitely assisted us during our playthrough and our write-up :D] was somewhat cute but that would have worked better as an ACS feature where you read a book giving you the proverb and hinting more what to do. Map 25 again was impressive for what we saw, that 3D elevator was rather cosily executed. Now as to why we aren't playing it... We feel drained, bored and frustrated from the majority of this particular playtest request + it's definitely more slaughter heavy and that takes time! We sadly don't have much more left for this.

Conclusion: Even though you've got a lot of obstacles to start looking at and considering... this is far from the worst thing we played :| It suffers from repetition which is why we abandoned the review format we like to do and have the others talk more. These maps left us saying the same points over and over. So it's up to you how you wish to engage fixing/improving. Couple pointers...

1) Please try and ensure a EASY and NORMAL setting. What we mean is, ensure there's a setting YOU think is perfectly viable. Then make one which lessens the blow. You don't need to dive straight into difficulty adjustment. Everyone's got their way to do it, think of it like Training Mode and Normal Mode.
2) For playtests in the future, try and have a possible MUST TEST list ready. If you want to deploy a Beta and just gain whatever feedback possible. That's alright. But, if you know there's a few encounters/difficulties or something specific you want tested. Please write it in the original request for better transparency!
3) See the things that we have complained about and maybe others too... DONT be afraid later to revisit those ideas... You might have more tools later to make it work in a more fun way! We prefer hard and annoying encounters to bland and boring ones, even if it angers/upsets. There's more to emote, to discuss and debate in those situations. Boring elements are much harder to talk about. So, in short KEEP EXPERIMENTING & don't settle for the IKEA DOOM MAPPING TUTORIALS! Good basis, but eventually, write your own rules!

There's probably more to talk about, but right now... We need to stop! Hope the raw emotive parts aren't too disheartening [or maybe you're one of those evil mappers who like watching people lose to your creations, we don't know *shrugs*] But we wanted to try and *slams the table* put our points down hard! Goodbye! Done!

[reefer]

I've played a bit of it, and I can say this:
I second what others have said about not doing a full megawad: start with something small

You have a lot of really great design choices and ideas, but they are watered out by a lot of not-so-good maps that are definitely product of just being tired out

By no means am I an experienced Doomer, but I've seen my fair share of wads and I can certainly say that some of these maps were pretty good

I haven't played all the maps in the wad, but my favorite map is #24. It had a lot of really great design choices. I say you should quit working on this and take all the knowledge you've gained from making it and put it into a solid mapset with a lot less levels- I'd, for one, be really interested in it

Edited April 20, 2022 by PrismaticFrog

[EPICALLL]

48 minutes ago, ANonThingie! said:

ANon: Time to bring it home! Final Part! To illustrate how drained we got, very little chime ins with the others here.

Map 15: Thingie! found a break. It's the area where Lost Souls hide in the walls, believe with the SLADWALL tex. [can't remember the exact name]. The trap doesn't spring. Apart from that, this is one of the Wolf-Corridor maps, which dragged on a tad too long. This also used the monster death exit calls and if we're reading the notes properly... You can use monster death exits, but it's handy to somehow convey that in order to beat the level, a monster needs killed. ACS Print statements before entering the final chamber, or custom message texture can help here.

Map 16: Ah yes! The level which the 100% run started causing us grief. Now we can't speak for everyone, but two-tapping BFG Cyber kills aren't always something we can do on command. Monké enjoys the final spike a little, Thingie! and Artie blew a gasket at that bit. This definitely felt like a valley map at first and when this came up, it became unfun for us. This level also was where the "Where will the Cyber demon be in the level?" minigame started popping in our heads. Now this can be an argument for player skill ruining it and it's possible to just ignore them... But open arenas can be a problem.

Map 17: *snaps pencil* All we are going to say here... This maze was not fun! The only thing that we can't verify is continuous players MIGHT have an easier experience.

Map 18: We managed to beat this one. However, this shares a problem with Map 05. Without the secret, can't imagine doing the level. The claustrophobia in this map is ridiculous! *sighs* Since now we know why the level was designed and named the way it was, we'll leave a note to talk about that another day. We can't think of an easy fix for this. 

Map 19: We, unlike most people, don't like call back maps. There's something off about the map in general... it's incredibly hard to convey. So, what what we can say is this. This was much simpler to approach than the previous one. If you can find a happy medium between your easy and your hardest moments... Some of these encounters might actually be addressable, as there's a fair bit of foreshadowing. Other than the advice, this map was okay...

Map 20: No... The amount of Cybers in this was just unnecessary.

Map 21: Almost glad we didn't try to stream this... Our favourite bit rate killer texture is back. FIREBLU! Our playthrough of this ended up Door Fighting a lot just by the massive arena door. Also, a note about the Invulnerability by the Spider Mastermind. This is why we think your encounter structure is oddly misplaced. The Spider Mastermind at this bit is incredibly weak to you, thanks to the retreat passage you came from. It's also possible to Zerg Rush a Spider Mastermind with the Plasma Gun at high health... chances are, she's gonna get stunned. A LOT! This is one of the lower rated maps for sure.

Map 22: One of the secrets was just barely able to be tagged! A valley map with a twist [at least it might have worked if Cybers weren't common in the set]. The final room could have been a nice wake up call for the final act in this mega-wad. But, we were expecting it & now it's like clockwork.

Map 23: Excuse us a sec! *goes outside and screams profanities into the sky and comes back composed* Needed that scream! We're giving you a visual picture of how things went in this level. So, consider this us contextualising our feelings. We hated this! This... is just mean spirited and frankly too annoying to bother... BUT we did! with "GIVE INFRARED" because we needed it.

Baron Bodyguards, close range, with Rockets as nearby available ammo!
Darkness which we personally needed to use the visor cheat in order to see ANYTHING!
Chasm-like level design near the end with platforming and a range of Hitscan and Projectile threats along with rude awakening enemies at last door.
Inescapable pits.
Starting room with Hitscanner advantage [DEFINITELY FUN IF YOU USE UV+]
Multi monster closeted enemy exit! [Few enemies, sure. But after Hell Knights that we very likely able to kill us just outside...]

Sad thing is... We also think, you were starting to change your approach and improve a little too, by this point!
The sector train! It is admittedly cute and simple, but you HAD to take time to add that in.
Room variation and as much as we hate strobe/flicker lights, you still tried a moodier presentation.
There's stuff here to indicate capability, but consider we're deep into the marathon this level does quite a few infuriating elements... This is where our collective patience broke.

Map 24 and 25: In the sake of fair play, since Map 23 was TIME TO STOP!. Map 24 is and for now, will be the last Map to mention properly. We were heavily fatigued but there were some nice elements to this map. Map 14 demonstrated that you had an eye to present an environment and do something striking. Map 24 demonstrates [not perfectly] that you're getting more mechanically knowledgeable about how spaces should/n't work. Now the wooden E1M4 Card Hunt Area, you have to understand with most of the feedback we've given. This section felt copy pasted like the Wolf-Corridors. It stuck as a weak element. The 'ending' [we think, based on the Map Clue and others here on the thread. Thanks to everyone else, your insight definitely assisted us during our playthrough and our write-up :D] was somewhat cute but that would have worked better as an ACS feature where you read a book giving you the proverb and hinting more what to do. Map 25 again was impressive for what we saw, that 3D elevator was rather cosily executed. Now as to why we aren't playing it... We feel drained, bored and frustrated from the majority of this particular playtest request + it's definitely more slaughter heavy and that takes time! We sadly don't have much more left for this.

Conclusion: Even though you've got a lot of obstacles to start looking at and considering... this is far from the worst thing we played :| It suffers from repetition which is why we abandoned the review format we like to do and have the others talk more. These maps left us saying the same points over and over. So it's up to you how you wish to engage fixing/improving. Couple pointers...

1) Please try and ensure a EASY and NORMAL setting. What we mean is, ensure there's a setting YOU think is perfectly viable. Then make one which lessens the blow. You don't need to dive straight into difficulty adjustment. Everyone's got their way to do it, think of it like Training Mode and Normal Mode.
2) For playtests in the future, try and have a possible MUST TEST list ready. If you want to deploy a Beta and just gain whatever feedback possible. That's alright. But, if you know there's a few encounters/difficulties or something specific you want tested. Please write it in the original request for better transparency!
3) See the things that we have complained about and maybe others too... DONT be afraid later to revisit those ideas... You might have more tools later to make it work in a more fun way! We prefer hard and annoying encounters to bland and boring ones, even if it angers/upsets. There's more to emote, to discuss and debate in those situations. Boring elements are much harder to talk about. So, in short KEEP EXPERIMENTING & don't settle for the IKEA DOOM MAPPING TUTORIALS! Good basis, but eventually, write your own rules!

There's probably more to talk about, but right now... We need to stop! Hope the raw emotive parts aren't too disheartening [or maybe you're one of those evil mappers who like watching people lose to your creations, we don't know *shrugs*] But we wanted to try and *slams the table* put our points down hard! Goodbye! Done!

Thank you! And about your not trying to sound rude, personally... I like it when people have no filter. It shows me exactly what they thought, how they thought of it, when it happened and why it happened.

[EPICALLL]

3 minutes ago, PrismaticFrog said:

I've played a bit of it, and I can say this:
I second what others have said about not doing a full megawad: start with something small

You have a lot of really great design choices and ideas, but they are watered out by a lot of not-so-good maps that are definitely product of just being tired out

By no means am I an experienced Doomer, but I've seen my fair share of wads and I can certainly say that some of these maps were pretty good

I haven't played all the maps in the wad, but my favorite map is #24. It had a lot of really great design choices. I say you should quit working on this and take all the knowledge you've gained from making it and put it into a solid mapset with a lot less levels- I'd, for one, be really interested in it

Funny thing, because that'd EXACTLY, word for word what I'm going to do.

[reefer]

btw if you're on gzdoom, open the console by pressing the ` key (should be under your esc key) and it'll tell you if something's messed up in your level

also, most editors have a 'debug' mode where they check for things like stuck actors, unneeded linedefs, etc