About usage of alpha stuff

[bobstremglav]

I heard that now it's not acceptable to use textures from iwads (for example, importing doom1 textures for doom2 wad, or hexen to heretic, etc), but what about usage of stuff from alpha and beta versions? Including unused ost

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

Is it not acceptable? I don't know, I've seen plenty uses of the doom 1 waterfall and monitors textures in doom 2 maps. Where have you heard it's not ok? And people are also using the alpha/beta sprites freely too. Why would that be wrong? 

[Koko Ricky]

What is considered unacceptable in terms of graphics usage in mods is generally using any graphics from other sources without crediting them.

[Donowa]

8 hours ago, HrnekBezucha said:

...I've seen plenty uses of the doom 1 waterfall and monitors textures in doom 2 maps...

i don't think Doom 1 had waterfall textures, also iirc the monitor textures were also used in doom in e2

[gwain]

alot of wads use alpha weapons sprites I dont see why you wouldn't use alpha textures

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

26 minutes ago, Donowa said:

i don't think Doom 1 had waterfall textures, also iirc the monitor textures were also used in doom in e2

Okay, I had to look it up, COMPUTE1 2 and 3 are only in DOOM.wad and not in DOOM2, and you're right about the waterfall. I would swear I've seen it there but nope.

[Doomkid]

Just to be crystal clear, wads have been using Heretic, Hexen and Duke3D assets in their Doom wads since the dawn of time. As long as you don’t try to sell the wad or something, you’ll be just fine.

[Trar]

7 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Just to be crystal clear, wads have been using Heretic, Hexen and Duke3D assets in their Doom wads since the dawn of time. As long as you don’t try to sell the wad or something, you’ll be just fine.

 

I think this implies that if you use wholly Doom-sourced (or wholly original assets nowadays I guess with Bethesda's lawyers always watching) you can still create and sell a megawad like Final Doom or Hell To Pay/Perdition's Gate. It would just have to be utterly amazing to justify the cost versus the community-created wads we see now.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Trar

[Dubbag]

one time I sent a Doom 2 Map to idgames and it got rejected because there was a single Doom 1 texture in it. So they can be really ridiculous sometimes.

[Doomkid]

Idgames has an automatic detector of any and all iwad assets, and you can’t upload unless you ask for an exception in your email (something as simple as “this map uses some Doom1 assets, could it please be accepted anyway?”).

 

Another alternative (if you’re using a true boatload of external iwad resources) is to use ketmar’s wadcheck tool: https://doomshack.org/~doomkid/Utilities/wadcheck_gui.zip

 

You can load in all the assets from doom.wad, Doom2.wad, Plutonia etc, then check your PWAD against them to see if any unmodified resources are used. You can then do slight edits and recolours (almost unnoticeable to the human eye if you wish) to make sure every asset is modified, which will also mean it’ll be accepted to idgames.

[Hitboi]

17 hours ago, bobstremglav said:

but what about usage of stuff from alpha and beta versions?

It's acceptable, I've seen alpha/beta resources in a few wads including this one. Most of them are in Xaser's and NaturalTvventy's Lostres.

About unused music, I have 95% no clue if you should use them, however most of them are Bobby Prince's MIDI renditions of already existing copyrighted songs. You can probably tell why some of those MIDI renditions (excluding opening.mid, un08.mid, un37.mid and un28.mid) were altered to be in the final 2 games.
 

5 hours ago, Donowa said:

i don't think Doom 1 had waterfall textures

5 hours ago, HrnekBezucha said:

and you're right about the waterfall. I would swear I've seen it there but nope.

The waterfall textures were originally from Plutonia but I also think they were reused in TNT?
 

5 hours ago, Koko Ricky said:

What is considered unacceptable in terms of graphics usage in mods is generally using any graphics from other sources without crediting them.

Yes this is true in some cases, ^{(I'm not exactly sure if the the statement I'm gonna say here is right)} but you forgot the part where asking permission to use graphics is sometimes required, because ID Software may not accept a modder for using their graphics even if credit was applied.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

11 minutes ago, Hitboi said:

The waterfall textures were originally from Plutonia but I also think they were reused in TNT?

Not to hijack the topic, but Plutonia and TNT had slightly different waterfall textures. I believe TNT's is called TYFALL1-4 and Plutonia's is the normal WFALL1-4 but I could be wrong. Both look great and I've used them both in multiple wads.

[Frost-Core]

Its probably accepted, i mean id wouldnt even care about you using a texture from like the stone age (as long as you dont get rich from it or some thing idk)

[Azuris]

On 4/30/2022 at 3:20 AM, Doomkid said:

Idgames has an automatic detector of any and all iwad assets, and you can’t upload unless you ask for an exception in your email (something as simple as “this map uses some Doom1 assets, could it please be accepted anyway?”).

 

I had no Idea (but haven't uploaded much there in the first Place :P)

Why are Doom 1 Textures forbidden?

 

Can't see what is the Difference between the Need to have the Doom2.wad to the Need of having (also) the Doom.wad :>

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

6 hours ago, Azuris said:

 

I had no Idea (but haven't uploaded much there in the first Place :P)

Why are Doom 1 Textures forbidden?

 

Can't see what is the Difference between the Need to have the Doom2.wad to the Need of having (also) the Doom.wad :>

I guess it's because the textures are id property. When you make a map, you're using the assets of the iwad, that people presumably bought. If you import the textures yourself, you're redistributing id's IP without permission. 

Whether it makes any sense at all to worry about 29 year old IP is a debate I'd get a lot of hate for, so I'll leave it at that. 

[Azuris]

5 hours ago, HrnekBezucha said:

I guess it's because the textures are id property. When you make a map, you're using the assets of the iwad, that people presumably bought. If you import the textures yourself, you're redistributing id's IP without permission. 

Whether it makes any sense at all to worry about 29 year old IP is a debate I'd get a lot of hate for, so I'll leave it at that. 

 

Hm ok, i am understanding, it literally adds them, my Thinking was just wrong.

 

Haven't mixed D1 and D2 in Maps until now (coincidently i wanted to do it in my next Map),

i was thinking that it "Links" it if i add both Files as Sources and the Player must own both Maps and Wads.

[Hitboi]

12 minutes ago, Azuris said:

Haven't mixed D1 and D2 in Maps until now (coincidently i wanted to do it in my next Map),

i was thinking that it "Links" it if i add both Files as Sources and the Player must own both Maps and Wads.

No, it won't work properly, because the programmers of Doom couldn't try to/didn't choose to implement this feature, same thing goes to the most popular (or perhaps all) source-ports. The only proper way I know to do this is by merging the Doom 1 content that didn't appear in Doom II and vice versa (while keeping the duplicate content from either one of these games). Most Doom map authors use edited Doom 1 textures to bypass --(or intend to make their wad look better)-- a rejection from IDGames or any wad-hosting website against adding unmodified D1 resources.
 

12 hours ago, Azuris said:

Why are Doom 1 Textures forbidden?

Because some people playing the IDGames Doom II file might not own Doom 1, and some of the textures they are seeing are from a game they don't own, which is kinda like playing a tabletop game someone stole, but you can only play a half of the stolen tabletop game. Also Doom II and 1 have some different textures.

[Xaser]

There's some misinformation floating around in this thread -- the /idgames archive does not reject wads for importing textures from other IWADS, but for having unmodified duplicate lumps from the target IWAD.l -- i.e. if a map is for Doom 2, it's checked to make sure there's nothing copy+pasted from doom2.wad in there (midis excepted, since that's how you change music in vanilla wads).

 

When in doubt, use SLADE's "Remove Duplicate Lumps" feature +or whatever the option is called -- on my phone so I can't check :P ) -- that's what th archive maintainers use.

[Doomkid]

32 minutes ago, Xaser said:

When in doubt, use SLADE's "Remove Duplicate Lumps" feature +or whatever the option is called -- on my phone so I can't check :P ) -- that's what th archive maintainers use.

There’s every chance this has been fixed in the latest Slade,  but every time I’ve used this feature it removes a ton of non-duplicate entries and generally just breaks the wad. Not sure why, and again this could be limited to older versions.

[Avix]

5 hours ago, Doomkid said:

There’s every chance this has been fixed in the latest Slade,  but every time I’ve used this feature it removes a ton of non-duplicate entries and generally just breaks the wad. Not sure why, and again this could be limited to older versions.

tried it out now and it made floors switch through a bunch of the different flats

[ChopBlock223]

On 5/3/2022 at 5:02 PM, Xaser said:

(midis excepted, since that's how you change music in vanilla wads).

I've seen people complain about Doom 1 midis getting a Doom 2 .wad rejected.

 

On 5/3/2022 at 5:02 PM, Xaser said:

When in doubt, use SLADE's "Remove Duplicate Lumps" feature +or whatever the option is called -- on my phone so I can't check :P ) -- that's what th archive maintainers use.

This feature always breaks my textures lumps and patch tables, and it has exactly zero regard for animation frames, ergo it'll claim any frame of an animated texture or flat which isn't the first one as unused.

I don't really understand why it doesn't check animated lumps and switch lumps.

[Xaser]

Now that I'm not on my phone: The option the maintainers use to prune/check is the one called "Remove Entries Duplicated from IWAD", not any of the "Remove unused [x]" ones, which are the more troublesome ones.

 

Not that I understand why all of y'all are replying to me just to say this this anyway -- I'm not a SLADE developer, and if y'all want to not bother to use it and get your wads rejected for preventable reasons, then be my guest I guess.

[Doomkid]

I only said what I said to prevent potential future readers from accidentally destroying their wads, that's all

[Wadmodder Shalton]

Any user who has the Unity port on PC: For reuse of Hexen, Heretic and Strife textures in Doom 1 & 2 PWADs released for free, that's instant copyright infringement and instant BRUH moment for Bethesda/Zenimax's lawyers, and those MegaWADs need to be remodded in order to be accepted for the Unity port.