Why wasn't the 4th episode based on DOOM II?

[Rudolph]

@Graf Zahl Really? Is it that simple? Will that not lead to a lot of missing textures, though?

 

By "remake", I mean replacing the custom assets with better ones, of course. 

[A Nobody]

Romero should have made Sigil for Doom 2 instead to be honest.

[LexiMax]

To try and not get into the tired Doom vs Doom 2 debate again, I personally think it would be really cool to see a Shores of Hell remake done with Doom 2 enemies.  This is Doom, so of course it's probably been done at some point, the question is has it been done well?

[Redneckerz]

5 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I am surprised nobody has tried remaking Hell to Pay using either vanilla or better-looking assets.

Once again you are surprised about something that nobody else is surprised about.

 

Hell to Pay relies on a lot of pre-rendered 3D that is converted to a sprite. The pre-rendered 3D was/is done with stuff like 3D Studio for DOS. They are raytraced animations, but back then PC's were orders of magnitudes slower, to the point that even a single ball with a reflection would take some time to render offline.

 

Oddly enough the limited rendering power does come with a look unique of its own: Many game covers utilized raytracing and today people attempt to recreate this retro-CGI look.

 

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

@Graf Zahl Really? Is it that simple? Will that not lead to a lot of missing textures, though?

Yes Rudolph, if you remove the sprite replacements and do nothing else that will lead to a lot of missing textures.

 

So naturally, if you want to fix it as what Graf is implying, you need to replace those sprite replacements with higher quality ones. Exactly what you are saying a sentence later.

 

1 hour ago, The Strife Commando said:

Romero should have made Sigil for Doom 2 instead to be honest.

Romero should have made what he wanted to make.

And he chose to make SIGIL for The Ultimate Doom.

 

He doesn't owe the community anything.

[Graf Zahl]

29 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Yes Rudolph, if you remove the sprite replacements and do nothing else that will lead to a lot of missing textures.

 

So naturally, if you want to fix it as what Graf is implying, you need to replace those sprite replacements with higher quality ones. Exactly what you are saying a sentence later.

 

 

Actually, if you just remove the new sprites, you'll get the original ones instead. Just removing them is really all you need to do here.

Been there, done that 21 years ago and never had to look at this weird shit again. :D

 

 

[Rudolph]

7 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Actually, if you just remove the new sprites, you'll get the original ones instead. Just removing them is really all you need to do here.

Been there, done that 21 years ago and never had to look at this weird shit again. :D

I considered doing that at first, but then I guess I ended up getting used to the new graphics. Ironically, some of the levels were designed around the new sprites (e.g. MAP10: The Liquid Metal Labs), so the vanilla enemies end up looking more out of place than their Hell to Pay replacements.

 

Besides, I reckon that just replacing the textures might not be enough: the level design and the geometry would have to get touched up as well, as some areas are quite goofy-looking or downright awkward. The cafeterias that serve demonic food and the cozy crew quarters, the numerous ambushes where enemies just pop out of nowhere without a teleporter effect as well as the "space walk" sequence in a later level come to mind...

 

It is funny in a way, as Hell to Pay has easily one of the darkest premises for a Doom megawad, yet its execution - at least, visually - feels so juvenile. Still a great mapset that definitely deserved to be included in Final Doom, mind you!

Edited May 14, 2022 by Rudolph

[7Mahonin]

Because episode 4 was how they could sell Doom to retail when Doom II came out. 

[Woolie Wool]

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Once again you are surprised about something that nobody else is surprised about.

 

Hell to Pay relies on a lot of pre-rendered 3D that is converted to a sprite. The pre-rendered 3D was/is done with stuff like 3D Studio for DOS. They are raytraced animations, but back then PC's were orders of magnitudes slower, to the point that even a single ball with a reflection would take some time to render offline.

 

Oddly enough the limited rendering power does come with a look unique of its own: Many game covers utilized raytracing and today people attempt to recreate this retro-CGI look.

That would be a pretty amusing aesthetic, a retro game that use RTX to look like ReBoot or the D!Zone box art.

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

That would be a pretty amusing aesthetic, a retro game that use RTX to look like ReBoot or the D!Zone box art.

Does this qualify?

 

 

[zokum]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:28 AM, Dark Pulse said:

As others have said, it was basically a way to get the original Doom into retail. However, given that there was a considerable amount of engine changes, tweaks, and additions between Doom and Doom II (for example, the map intermission stuff is pretty much nuked), it wouldn't have quite worked right with the Doom II engine/executable.

 

No. The excecutable for Doom 2 is perfectly capable of running Doom 1. The Doom 2 1.9 executable is the same as the 1.9 Doom executable. Let me quote the Doom wiki:

Latest version of Registered DOOM

The executable distributed with the DOS version of Registered Doom 1.9 is identical to the one distributed with Doom II 1.9 & Shareware Doom 1.9.

Version 1.9 is 709,905 bytes in size, is dated 1995-02-01, and has the following hashes:

The changes for Final Doom and the Ultimate Doom are very minor, it would not have been hard to keep it in a unified executable. Having just one executable makes it much easier to implement bug fixes and improvements to the engine. Doom basically has a sub set of Doom 2's features.

[Woolie Wool]

4 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Does this qualify?

 

 

No, I mean a modern D3D12/Vulkan game engine with ray-tracing and all the modern features, not a GZDoom mod. Something like the new System Shock remake, but it looks like Beast Wars.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Woolie Wool

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

6 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Does this qualify?

 

 

I'm not seeing how this looks anything like 90's cgi or how it even attempts such a look except for the short part at 0:20.

[Dark Pulse]

4 hours ago, zokum said:

No. The excecutable for Doom 2 is perfectly capable of running Doom 1. The Doom 2 1.9 executable is the same as the 1.9 Doom executable. Let me quote the Doom wiki:

Latest version of Registered DOOM

The executable distributed with the DOS version of Registered Doom 1.9 is identical to the one distributed with Doom II 1.9 & Shareware Doom 1.9.

Version 1.9 is 709,905 bytes in size, is dated 1995-02-01, and has the following hashes:

The changes for Final Doom and the Ultimate Doom are very minor, it would not have been hard to keep it in a unified executable. Having just one executable makes it much easier to implement bug fixes and improvements to the engine. Doom basically has a sub set of Doom 2's features.

My mistake then. I assumed that they'd modified core elements like that on the executables, but if it's essentially IFDEF'ing then yeah, I guess it's possible.

 

The rest of my point, however, still stands - they'd want to protect the sales of Doom II, so having Thy Flesh Consumed have all the Doom II content would've most definitely cannibalized it. The games are only seven months apart, after all, so Doom II was presumably still making reasonable sales and would continue to do so until Quake came out the following year.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[zokum]

1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

My mistake then. I assumed that they'd modified core elements like that on the executables, but if it's essentially IFDEF'ing then yeah, I guess it's possible.

 

The rest of my point, however, still stands - they'd want to protect the sales of Doom II, so having Thy Flesh Consumed have all the Doom II content would've most definitely cannibalized it. The games are only seven months apart, after all, so Doom II was presumably still making reasonable sales and would continue to do so until Quake came out the following year.

#ifdefs are checked compile time. That would make for different executables. The code simply checks things like what is the wad we're loading called etc to determine the behviour. A lot of the stuff like titlepic, demo playback etc are the same, so there aren't that many changes. Since doom doesn't contain any doom 2 monsters, the code for loading the graphics for them is never run etc. Doom 2 is also a bit simpler when it comes to things like the intermission screen so all in all, it is probably a simpler code path. You could take a look at the released source code to determine the specifics of how it is handled.

[Rudolph]

8 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

No, I mean a modern D3D12/Vulkan game engine with ray-tracing and all the modern features, not a GZDoom mod. Something like the new System Shock remake, but it looks like Beast Wars.

The game above is not a GZDoom mod as far as I am aware, but point taken.

 

What about this one?

 

 

Or this one?

 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Rudolph

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

8 hours ago, Rudolph said:

The game above is not a GZDoom mod as far as I am aware, but point taken.

 

What about this one?

 

 

Or this one?

 

 

Again, how are those similar to a 90's cgi/magazine cover aesthetic? Neither one of those even look remotely similar to each other.

[out_of_service]

A 32-map Thy Flesh Consumed? Oh lordy. They would have had to make a mad scramble naming all the maps after bible phrases.

[Rudolph]

@Piper Maru Maybe John Romero could do that for Sigil 2! :D