Doom 2 Intermission Maps (COMPLETE)

[oliacym]

6 hours ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

 

Absolutely and to the extent I would be psyched to see your take on all 4 episodes of Ultimate Doom and probably Sigil and NRFTL.

 

No Rest for the Living is very likely, as is Final Doom, but Ultimate Doom less so as it has maps already, but at some point I may give them a go :) I have yet to play Sigil actually!

[ludicrous_peridot]

... also perhaps A long trek home? :D

 

On a "more serious" note though - any chance of the maps being released "officially" in Doom patch graphic format in addition to the PNG version you've published?

[LadyMistDragon]

So um, will these work in all source ports then? I guess someone tested this in DOS but official confrimation is always nice:)

[brick]

1 hour ago, LadyMistDragon said:

So um, will these work in all source ports then? I guess someone tested this in DOS but official confrimation is always nice:)

It will only work in GZDoom, and maybe derivatives (LZ, Zandro). Intermissions were not customizable at all in doom.exe, the only thing you could do there was change the actual images used (but you'd have to align them perfectly against the originals so that the markers would appear right, since you can't change the location of those). Intermission behaviour in GZDoom isn't hard-coded, it's done through intermission scripts and that's why you can do things so differently, including adding all those options for backgrounds and animations and markers in Doom II, which by default doesn't have any of this programmed in. But those scripts will not be read and recognized by other source ports. It's possible that at least some other source ports have their own intermission systems that are customizable, the ones most likely IMO are Eternity and EDGE, but you'd have to check, and even if they do you'd have to rewrite the code to function there.

 

21 hours ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

any chance of the maps being released "officially" in Doom patch graphic format in addition to the PNG version you've published?

Unless intermission scripts can be ported to another source port (see above), I'm not sure if that'll be very useful, since they can only be used in GZDoom. Unless you had something specific in mind?

[Gez]

1 hour ago, brick said:

It's possible that at least some other source ports have their own intermission systems that are customizable, the ones most likely IMO are Eternity and EDGE

It's on the TODO list for Eternity: https://github.com/team-eternity/eternity/issues/525

 

I don't know when @printz will get around to it, though, as there's a lot of other work to do and it seems he's currently the only dev still active.

[ludicrous_peridot]

Well the video recorded comes from Tartar. I added support for @oliacym's assets; nothing fancy, all the splats locations are coded in similar to how the intermission for original 3 episodes are done, but graphics assets are pulled from the wad. Now Tartar (and many other source ports) does not support PNGs so I had to perform a manual coversion with Slade for this to work. However, even those source ports that support PNGs would perform a much poorer coercion into Doom palette than the author could potentially do with their artistic tools.

 

Now with regards to usefulness, I believe that a UMAPINFO version of the mod with Doom patches and not PNGs will be very much apppreciated for use with non-XZDoom ports.

[brick]

2 hours ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

Now with regards to usefulness, I believe that a UMAPINFO version of the mod with Doom patches and not PNGs will be very much apppreciated for use with non-XZDoom ports.

I hadn't noticed your video! I'm also such an idiot. Of course the Doom graphics will work with any UMAPINFO port, it's only the specifics of the scripting (and the animations I guess) that won't work, but it's still totally worth it either way, and having both UMAPINFO and ZMAPINFO lumps in the same wad would still ensure everything runs perfectly in GZDoom as it does now, and Tartar/DSDA/Woof/etc still get the fixed graphics. I think keeping the HD versions in PNG would still be better, unless other ports can do HD in Doom graphic format?

[oliacym]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:03 PM, ludicrous_peridot said:

On a "more serious" note though - any chance of the maps being released "officially" in Doom patch graphic format in addition to the PNG version you've published?

 

15 hours ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

Now with regards to usefulness, I believe that a UMAPINFO version of the mod with Doom patches and not PNGs will be very much apppreciated for use with non-XZDoom ports.

 

Consider this on my todo list. I'm not super familiar with the process and likely have a little reading to do, but I'm sure we can at the very least get the static images going, as like Brick says, I don't think the anims and transition foibles for the secret levels will work. I will look into this tonight!

[oliacym]

Added animation for MAP07-11.

[brick]

7 hours ago, oliacym said:

Consider this on my todo list. I'm not super familiar with the process and likely have a little reading to do, but I'm sure we can at the very least get the static images going, as like Brick says, I don't think the anims and transition foibles for the secret levels will work. I will look into this tonight!

If you need help or have questions about converting the images or making the UMAPINFO please let me know, I think I'm reasonably familiar with both processes now and I'd love to help with the project if needed.

 

Very excited to check out the new animations when I get home tonight.

Edited May 16, 2022 by brick

[Lobo]

Might make an add-on for Edge-Classic out of this when I get some time.

Looks awesome!

[oliacym]

Added animation for MAP12-20.

Edited May 18, 2022 by oliacym

[oliacym]

Added animation for MAP21-30. Phew!

 

I'm pretty much considering this one done at this point. I will still do a stripped down static version that plays nicely with other source ports though.

 

Next stop, probably No Rest for the Living!

[brick]

That HD file size! XD

I don't know if it's because my PC is older but when running in HD the first "cycle" of animations runs slower, probably as the animations get loaded in RAM, and then everything is fine on the second cycle and afterwards. I don't care though, they look breathtaking now and feel so alive. I've always wistfully wondered why id didn't make intermission maps for Doom II as well, but I never realized just how much I missed them until now, there's definitely no going back. Thanks for making and sharing these, looking forward to NRFL.

[eharper256]

7 hours ago, oliacym said:

Added animation for MAP21-30. Phew!

 

I'm pretty much considering this one done at this point. I will still do a stripped down static version that plays nicely with other source ports though.

 

Next stop, probably No Rest for the Living!

Super massive congratulations to you, sir!

A few people have started this project in the past, but you are, to my knowledge, the only one to finish it, and in such a short timescale!!

Perhaps I'll commission you to do Hexen Intermissions. XD

[Gez]

7 hours ago, oliacym said:

I will still do a stripped down static version that plays nicely with other source ports though.

An idea would be to "bake" the splats in the images. That means you'd have 31 images in total (one after each map except MAP30).

[oliacym]

2 hours ago, brick said:

I don't know if it's because my PC is older but when running in HD the first "cycle" of animations runs slower, probably as the animations get loaded in RAM, and then everything is fine on the second cycle and afterwards.

 

Yeah I noticed a little of that even on my PC, which runs Doom Eternal fine. I don't know if there's any way around it to be honest, but I've tried to optimise where I can.

[oliacym]

Just now, Gez said:

An idea would be to "bake" the splats in the images. That means you'd have 31 images in total (one after each map except MAP30).

 

Ooh. That is clever. Thank you! :D

[ludicrous_peridot]

6 hours ago, oliacym said:

 

Ooh. That is clever. Thank you! :D

 

Any chance of still having splats, yah arrow and clean images included in the stripped down wad though?

[oliacym]

Okay so I'm trying to get a barebones UMAPINFO version together. Unfortunately when converting the graphics, whether using Slade or Photoshop I'm unable to stop Doom's palette from taking some lumps out of them, but these are how they will look as Doom format graphics:

 

 

Secondly, using Gez's suggestion, I've set it so that the next enterpic has the last splat and the next "You Are Here" baked into it. The exitpic is set to the map with no splats or arrows, so when the stats are cleared with a keypress, the player sees the splats and arrows so far until the next level loads.

 

The issue here is that on the source ports I've tried, there is virtually no delay before the next level loads, like there was for Doom 1. So the player sees the title of the next level and the enterpic for half a second then it disappears. GZDoom has a script command for this for it to require a keypress, but I'm guessing no other source ports do. This also happens for the secret level images, which flash up for a half second then go, which I'd like to prevent if anyone knows a way.

 

Basically, it works, and I've tested it in prboom/Crispy but there's these sharp corners I'd like to round off if at all possible, perhaps someone more familiar with UMAPINFO has any ideas? I've been working from this as a reference: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/UMAPINFO

 

Current download: doom2intmap_nonGZ.zip

Edited May 20, 2022 by oliacym

[brick]

I'm not sure how much was taken out of the graphics when converting to the Doom palette, as far as I can tell from comparing side by side (but without extremely in-depth analysis) the conversions look very good and very faithful!

 

3 hours ago, oliacym said:

The issue here is that on the source ports I've tried, there is virtually no delay before the next level loads, like there was for Doom 1. So the player sees the title of the next level and the enterpic for half a second then it disappears. GZDoom has a script command for this for it to require a keypress, but I'm guessing no other source ports do. This also happens for the secret level images, which flash up for a half second then go, which I'd like to prevent if anyone knows a way.

This is unfortunately how the original exe works, the "entering" screen also flashes for barely a second before going to the level proper. This is hard-coded into doom2.exe, and all of the more faithful source ports have inherited this. I think it's also hard-coded in them, and I don't think it can be changed because that would immediately cause demo desynching, which is a pretty big deal for most of these ports. GZDoom gets around this because it doesn't really care about demo compatibility, and because the way intermissions work is not hard-coded and can be completely customized using the intermission scripts. AFAIK none of the ports allow you to change the delay, though I'm hoping I'm wrong and someone else knows how to do this.

 

Otherwise, the only solution I can think of, though not ideal, is to have the same picture with the splats and arrow be used for both the previous level's exitpic and the next level's enterpic, ie, MAP01 has exitpic = WI2MAP1A, MAP02 has enterpic = WI2MAP1A and exitpic = WI2MAP1B, and so on. At least then the graphic will stay on long enough for it to be visible and appreciated. Unfortunately this will not help with the secret levels.

Edited May 21, 2022 by brick

[oliacym]

7 hours ago, brick said:

I'm not sure how much was taken out of the graphics when converting to the Doom palette, as far as I can tell from comparing side by side (but without extremely in-depth analysis) the conversions look very good and very faithful!

 

Yeah I'm glad it feels that way to someone else's eyes, it's messed with the palette a little but it's not too bad considering.

 

7 hours ago, brick said:

This is unfortunately how the original exe works, the "entering" screen also flashes for barely a second before going to the level proper. This is hard-coded into doom2.exe, and all of the more faithful source ports have inherited this.

 

Ah I suspected so. Doom 2 just wasn't made for maps I guess, and on older PCs the loading time would give you more time to read the name of the next map.

 

7 hours ago, brick said:

Unfortunately this will not help with the secret levels.

 

Yeah not sure what to do there, since there's no way to determine whether the player is leaving MAP15 for MAP16 or MAP30.

 

I think what I'll do, unless there are any objections, is keep it as is for now, with the arrows and splats appearing briefly but at least appearing at the right time. The secret level pics, I dunno, perhaps I'll do the same. Not sure. Important thing is to get it all in a wad.

 

By the way, I appreciate the technical know how very much, thank you!

Edited May 21, 2022 by oliacym

[oliacym]

Also, No Rest for the Living is coming along well, the first half is finished although without animation yet.

[Gez]

13 hours ago, oliacym said:

The issue here is that on the source ports I've tried, there is virtually no delay before the next level loads, like there was for Doom 1. So the player sees the title of the next level and the enterpic for half a second then it disappears. GZDoom has a script command for this for it to require a keypress, but I'm guessing no other source ports do.

It could be suggested as an addition to the UMAPINFO standard if it's missing.

 

@fabian @rfomin @kraflab @bradharding @Graf Zahl @jval

I think that's all the relevant people.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Gez

[oliacym]

On 5/21/2022 at 1:36 PM, Gez said:

I think that's all the relevant people.

 

Thank you for this. :) Definitely worth a try.

[ludicrous_peridot]

 

On 5/21/2022 at 1:50 AM, oliacym said:

but these are how they will look as Doom format graphics

Thank you very much for these as they look very nice indeed.

 

If I still may make couple of suggestions though:

 

1. Having splats and YAH arrows included would be nice as they are missing from DOOM2 IWAD.

2. A 8.3 "lo-fi" filename would be very much appreciated for the non-GZ version.

3. This one I'm not 100% sure about, but perhaps offset of 120 should be applied to each image?

 

On 5/21/2022 at 5:44 AM, brick said:

This is hard-coded into doom2.exe, and all of the more faithful source ports have inherited this. I think it's also hard-coded in them, and I don't think it can be changed because that would immediately cause demo desynching, which is a pretty big deal for most of these ports.

As a person who has been just recently changing things around that particular trait, I believe this is absolutely true. I am amazed however changes to this part of the game influence demo playback...

 

Off to coding in support for wider-than-320 patches now :)

[brick]

1 hour ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

Having splats and YAH arrows included would be nice as they are missing from DOOM2 IWAD.

Do you mean the separate graphics on their own? They're already in the GZDoom version of the wad (if you open it in SLADE they're the last 3 lumps). I'm guessing the reason they're not in the non-GZD one is that none of the other ports would be able to use them so they're baked directly into the images instead and that will work with UMAPINFO. At least it does in DSDA-Doom, I haven't tested the other ports.

(bear in mind only E1 is done for the UMAPINFO version, so only up to MAP07 for now)

 

1 hour ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

This one I'm not 100% sure about, but perhaps offset of 120 should be applied to each image?

The images seemed well centered to me, both in GZDoom, and for the non-GZD version in DSDA. Did anything look out of place when you tried it?

 

1 hour ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

I am amazed however changes to this part of the game influence demo playback...

Yeah the demo format is great in many ways but it's so incredibly sensitive to breaking. Speaking of intermissions and demos, I remember discussions about how to handle secret counts in maps that don't have them, and IIRC one of the reasons the demo ports cannot do what GZD does (count it as 100% if no official secrets exist) is because that one extra tic spent in the intermission while the counter goes up from 0 to 100 is enough to desynch.

[ludicrous_peridot]

8 hours ago, brick said:

I'm guessing the reason they're not in the non-GZD one is that none of the other ports would be able to use them so they're baked directly into the images instead and that will work with UMAPINFO.

 

That's in principle correct and I am asking for this courtesy from the author for my own sake, so that for Tartar which is coded against this particular mod, I don't have to go through the hassle of somehow shipping the assets. I've uploaded a more recent take on the intermission screens to illustrate how Tartar's support is different from those in UMAPINFO ports. I am using a home cooked wad for this at the moment, that contains recently shared high quality conversions but with offsets added and splats from the GZ version. Ideally, I'd just drop in the "officially released" UMAPINFO version though.

Edited May 23, 2022 by ludicrous_peridot

[oliacym]

4 hours ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

 

I've uploaded a more recent take on the intermission screens to illustrate how Tartar's support is different from those in UMAPINFO ports.

 

Thank you for this, I will see about getting this sorted. I'm kind of reading everyone's comments and learning as I go so I appreciate the information. I'll look up Tartar and do my testing with that also, so in future you hopefully won't have to tweak it.

[Gez]

On samedi 21 mai 2022 at 4:44 AM, brick said:

I think it's also hard-coded in them, and I don't think it can be changed because that would immediately cause demo desynching, which is a pretty big deal for most of these ports.

I don't think it's a blocking point actually.

 

Yes, it causes desyncs. But you know what causes desyncs? Loading a different map. Loading a DEHACKED patch. Do conservative ports prevent loading DEHACKED patches or custom maps? No. They rely on the users to load what's necessary to play back a demo, no more no less, and if someone complains that loading superwpn.deh along their vanilla Sunder demo causes desyncs, the answer will be PEBKAC, not disabling DEHACKED support.

 

UMAPINFO already has all sorts of demo-breaking potential if you use it to change regular map behavior. Make one that causes MAP01 to exit to MAP30 instead of MAP02, and see if a full-game demo recorded without it will not desync...

 

So I really see no reason why there couldn't be something to change this intermission behavior in UMAPINFO. Of course it would cause this mod to stop being a merely cosmetic thing, but for a casual playthrough, is it a problem?