JAMAL JONES TRILOGY - Old development thread - [Doomkid's 20 Years Mapping Contest]

[Blue Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Earnesttrout said:

scratch that. Apparently different source ports act differently and some still have the tall steps.

just use the 1.1 version for the final one for now.

if your using the step texture as a midtexture then make sure your using V6 of the resource pack and use stepp that should fix things up for you.

[Goat-Avenger]

-Forlorn Fantasy-

--Update--

Minor Changes

Bug Fixes

https://wadhosting.com/Wad/A7E690E02C1F808245D10DC6E87DB2BDCBA35567

[Mark Bloom]

I finally present my first hell map. Tried to make a big and challenging map for 24-29 slot, but being relatively new to the mapping - the result is far from perfect. Like vanilla limits don't cope with large open areas. And the secrets were basically an afterthought. So any feedback would be welcome!

 

 

Title: The Cauldron

Author: Mark Bloom

Theme: Abstract kind of Hell

MIDI: Gut Wrencher by Bobby Prince (Duke Nukem 3D OST, also used on PL2 map28 'The Bloodwall')

Difficulty settings: Yes

Multiplayer: Some additional cyberdemons

Deathmatch: Yes (sort of)

Average playtime: ~28 minutes (pb is 24 minutes)

Build time: ~50 hours over a month

Tested with: Chocolate Doom, Chrispy Doom, DSDA-Doom, GZDoom

Known bugs: Crash on Chocolate Doom in the second room (I've tried to find the reason on the internet, but cannot understand which limitation I break here, so any help is welcome)

 

>>Wadhosting Link<<

 

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Starting View

 

The Library

 

Revenant Stairs

 

Blue Key Guards

 

On the way to Yellow key

 

The Exit

 

[Blexor]

Well, I was once again aiming to be totally caught up with all the posted maps before I made another post talking about them, but ah... that's proving to be more difficult than I first imagined. So here's my thoughts on these 8 maps for anyone who's interested. If I do another one of these, it will surely be sooner and without the burden of some ever-distancing goal point.

 

"Reading the Demonic Scriptures" (NeilJohnRips)

Spoiler

Well, right off the bat I feel I should say that I like the MIDI. The level itself is pretty nice-looking, too. The library (where the demonic scriptures can be found, I assume) is the highlight of the map in my opinion. My one gripe is that the final area is a little tight on space, especially with a Cyberdemon stomping around. Supplies are in no shortage, but sometimes they're clustered together and it can be difficult to grab what you want without grabbing everything else around it. Whoops, I guess that's two gripes. That's it, though.

 

"Dark Secrets" (earnesttrout)

Spoiler

Played both versions of this one (with and without the custom midi). Breezed through on the first play, but on the second it took me a while to realize jumping through the window at the top of the stairs is required. Since that tripped me up, I figured I'd mention it. Additionally, I found a small untextured ledge right by the exit door after the wall lowers. Not huge, but it's there. And my final bellyache (promise) is the red key room. I know 'dark' is right there in the title, but I found it a little hard to see the enemies in there. Besides all that, this is a solid, simple level. That imp in the exit such a classic Doom thing; I can't help but laugh.

 

"Corrupted Utopia" (Argent Agent)

Spoiler

Gutsy move to start with the plasma and rocket launcher, but I respect it. They're not for show, either: I found this one pretty tough (I might just be bad at this game). The beefy enemies are on parade, here, and some of those traps are meat grinders (the blue and red keys come to mind). Only drawback I can point to were some overflows I found when exploring with Chocorenderlimits, one of them being in the big area with the two bridges. Not sure if that's altogether a huge issue, but there it is. Oh, and nice helipad, by the way. I'm no 90s map scholar, but that seems pretty 90s to me.

 

"Sewage City" (Blue Phoenix)

Spoiler

Tried both versions here, as well. Cool that you got Optimus Prime to guest star for version 2. There's a lot of options for how to approach this map, and that's pretty cool, though it does feel like if you don't grab the shotgun/chaingun first you'll be hard pressed to survive the rest. The building that holds the super shotgun is tough, and give me trouble more than once. It was enough to make me stop and question if I really needed an SSG or not (the answer was still yes). Ammo availability gave me trouble on first play, but not so much on the second, so I guess you must have addressed that already. Last point: The final arena is cool. I like the way the castle seems to burst out of the ground.

 

"Babylon 1816" (Jastrzab Trzeci)

Spoiler

This one's pretty abstract, no mistake about that. Together with the title I can't help but wonder if there's some context that I'm missing. I had some shenanigans involving monsters and teleporters a couple times during my playthrough. Most notably in the room with the rocket launcher, where a mancubus followed me through one... and got stuck on the other side. I'm no expert on vanilla limits, but some reason I couldn't get this map to boot in Chocolate Doom, so I guess it must be in excess of some one. Finally, you expressed doubts about the MIDI, but honestly I think it fits the strange environments here pretty well.

 

"Final Contact" (Large Cat)

Spoiler

Since you asked, I tried this one on all 3 skill levels. The enemy opposition does seem a little tough on skill 2, but it's mostly during the first half. Really, I think that the first few encounters in and around the 'Wormhole' section are the toughest in the map since weaponry is sparse (I eventually did find the secret Plasma, though). Maybe drop an early chaingun for the lower skills? The only progression hiccup I can think of is remembering to go back through the portal after grabbing the yellow key.

 

"Amongst Blood and Fire" (Velvetic)

Spoiler

This is just dang solid map right here. The texture work is simple but not undetailed, progression is smooth, and the enemy placement is thoughtful without being cruel. It's hard to say if this map has any one facet which stands out, but at the same time, I'm not sure if it lacks anywhere, either. The only thing I can come up with is that there aren't too many of the resource pack exclusive monsters. I'm not saying that's some big flaw, far from it, but if a man gives you green imps it seems a shame not to use them.

 

"Forlorn Fantasy" (Goat-Avenger)

Spoiler

Alternate title: The Pepsi Realms. Imaginative and weird, it's not a stretch to see this as a secret level. Challenge-wise, I think it's good for it, too: There were some tricky spots, but nothing too wild. The red rock areas can get pretty hairy, but I'm glad you didn't low-ball the monster count. Do I have any complaints? Well... I know that it adds to the extra-dimensional feel, but the use of fireblu seems a tad overzealous at times. Riding the elevator near the super secret exit makes my eyes bleed just a wee bit.

 

I tried playing all of the updated versions, including for maps not listed above, but I'm not confident that I got them all and I apologize if I missed any. I don't recall finding any issues in any of them, and in @jacnowak's Damned Dam, specifically, I feel I should mention that I didn't run out of ammo this time, so that's got to be an improvement.

[Blue Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Blexor said:

"Sewage City" (Blue Phoenix)

 

Tried both versions here, as well. Cool that you got Optimus Prime to guest star for version 2. There's a lot of options for how to approach this map, and that's pretty cool, though it does feel like if you don't grab the shotgun/chaingun first you'll be hard pressed to survive the rest. The building that holds the super shotgun is tough, and give me trouble more than once. It was enough to make me stop and question if I really needed an SSG or not (the answer was still yes). Ammo availability gave me trouble on first play, but not so much on the second, so I guess you must have addressed that already. Last point: The final arena is cool. I like the way the castle seems to burst out of the ground.

Thank you.  The shotgun/chaingun situation was a deliberate design choice, which I can see why some wouldn't like, I am however going to reduce the difficulty of the level by smidge.

I suspected the library would be overly harsh, If you could tell me what gave you the most trouble would be quite helpful: ex.

• Shotgunners draining  your health without enough armor
• Higher tier monsters cornering you in the big fight
• getting caught on geometery
• not enough health and/or ammo
• the way to the exit after the main fight
• yes, all of the above

Edited February 18, 2022 by Blue Phoenix
addet bullets

[El Jeff]

Alright i've worked on it more and added a cave section because i like them and they're easy too map. also question has anyone found a way too use each custom monster too there max abilities because all i've found is that fire caco's are dangerous up close so i teleport them behind players when they open a door to a big fight. anything else like that with the other monsters?

[StrangerRanger]

Man where are y'all finding these MIDIs that don't sound like crap with chocolate doom OPL midi? Whatever music I use, half of the sounds are missing and it doesn't sound as good. I have zero musical knowledge and too little time to compose something myself. Any ideas?

[Blexor]

9 hours ago, Blue Phoenix said:

I suspected the library would be overly harsh, If you could tell me what gave you the most trouble would be quite helpful: ex.

• Shotgunners draining  your health without enough armor
• Higher tier monsters cornering you in the big fight
• getting caught on geometery
• not enough health and/or ammo
• the way to the exit after the main fight
• yes, all of the above

I think that the biggest hurdle I encountered with that fight was not getting mauled/pinned by the other monsters while trying to focus on the arch-vile. Ducking for cover from the vile's attack also gives the other monsters plenty of time to close in and block your exit. The couple of times I was able to clear that fight with just the SSG/Chaingun I had some lucky infighting and was able to stay in the open for the most part. I say 'just the SSG/Chaingun' because I tried coming back with the rocket launcher and plasma gun and had an easier time of it, so I suppose that exists as a valid strategy.

I guess all this is to suggest lessening the number of monsters that appear in that area, especially on the lower skills. I don't think that ammo is much of a concern, with the shotgunners potentially being revived, and I never noticed not having enough health or armor. Well... outside of, y'know... dying, that is.

 

5 hours ago, Thatonespymain said:

also question has anyone found a way too use each custom monster too there max abilities because all i've found is that fire caco's are dangerous up close so i teleport them behind players when they open a door to a big fight. anything else like that with the other monsters?

Don't take my word as gospel but here's what I've found:

• Flame Cacos (like you said) are dangerous up close but weak far away. This is in contrast to the standard Cacos (or Toxicacos in this version), who's long-range projectile is stronger and therefore threatening even from a distance. Flame Cacos also infight like crazy with other monsters, and since they have more health, they can keep them busy for a good amount of time. This is just generally good information to have whether you're fighting them or trying to make a map with some of them in it.
• The Green Imp's double projectiles make them surprisingly dangerous, especially in tight confines as it makes it all that more difficult not to get hit. They can easily chip away at you in large mobs, as it's less about how strong their projectile is and more about how many of them there are. These guys are also prone to infighting, but unlike the Flame Cacos they have much less health and are likely to get murderkilled if they pick a fight with someone beefy like a mancubus or a baron. They infight with regular imps, too, so mixing them together often doesn't work out.
• Plasma Guys are great snipers. They're slower than arachnotrons but also aren't the size of a city block, so they're easily tucked away on ledges or behind groups of other enemies. They haven't got too much health, so they're a little weaker in an up-front fight, but their projectiles hurt. I think they're kind of the opposite of the Flame Cacos where they're stronger when they're further away from you.

[Goat-Avenger]

Thnx for the review Blexor, and the criticism.  Yeah, fireblu was kind of my go to, a bit.

 

I'm pretty burnt out on messing with the map; but, if you have any other suggestions on where you think fireblu is too much, let me know, if you want to.

 

I'm just stoked to have actually completed and submitted a map, heh.  I've only ever released one wad on doomworld, and haven't done any mapping for about a decade.

 

Thnx again, Blexor, and to everyone.

 

As for your name suggestion, it got me thinking, "Pepsi Challenge."  lol.  I'd prefer to avoid trademarked stuff tho. :p  "Fizzy Fugue."  perhaps?  heh

 

Maybe Jamal Jones has a thing for sugary fizzy drinks and finds himself dozing off after hosing so many demons, he begins to have a nightmare about vending machines always being nearly just out of reach.

[StrangerRanger]

 

Oh. My. God.

[Cammy]

47 minutes ago, StrangerRanger said:

 

Oh. My. God.

 

Don't worry about that limit, it's insanely strict and ignored by even some of the most conservative vanilla projects out there. Getting big maps to fit within its restrictions is a huge pain in the ass and thoroughly not worth it; virtually every source port disables it by default, so you should be in good shape to just ignore that limit and keep going.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Cammy

[Gibbon]

9 minutes ago, Cammy said:

 

Don't worry about that limit, it's insanely strict and ignored by even some of the most conservative vanilla projects out there. Getting big maps to fit within its restrictions is a huge pain in the ass and thoroughly not worth it; virtually every source port disables it by default, so you should be in good shape to just ignore that limit and keep going.

Unless it is played using the original DOS binaries...  Having a buffer overrun would mean no saving on that map.

 

But that looks sweet though!  Can't wait for this to be done

Edited February 19, 2022 by Gibbon

[StrangerRanger]

5 minutes ago, Cammy said:

 

Don't worry about that limit, it's insanely strict and ignored by even some of the most conservative vanilla projects out there. Getting big maps to fit within its restrictions is a huge pain in the ass and thoroughly not worth it; virtually every source port disables it by default, so you should be in good shape to just ignore that limit and keep going.

 

Well normally I would ignore it, but since the point of the project is to:

 

On 1/5/2022 at 4:35 AM, Doomkid said:

put yourself in that "90's mapping headspace"

 

and

 

On 1/5/2022 at 4:35 AM, Doomkid said:

to stay within vanilla limits!!

 

I suppose there are people who want to run this WAD in DosBox or Chocolate Doom, so I managed to amputate the insignificant part of the map that was just there to "look nice" and "tell the story", and also other small details, so the savegame is now ~160kb. I will release the uncut version of the map too, so it's not gonna be all for nothing.

[phoo]

7 hours ago, StrangerRanger said:

 

Oh. My. God.

Darn, I'm getting the same thing on my map as well.... and I'm so close to wrapping it up :(
Is there some way to calculate how close I am to being within the limit? No clue how much I would need to cut, might be significant

Edited February 19, 2022 by phoo

[StrangerRanger]

14 minutes ago, phoo said:

Darn, I'm getting the same thing on my map as well.... and I'm so close to wrapping it up :(
Is there some way to calculate how close I am to being within the limit? No clue how much I would need to cut, might be significant

Try to play your map on other source port such as Crispy Doom, save game in various places and see what's their file size. The savegame buffer limit is 180kb, but it may also crash on ~175kb as well.

[Earnesttrout]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:38 PM, Blexor said:

Played both versions of this one (with and without the custom midi). Breezed through on the first play, but on the second it took me a while to realize jumping through the window at the top of the stairs is required. Since that tripped me up, I figured I'd mention it. Additionally, I found a small untextured ledge right by the exit door after the wall lowers. Not huge, but it's there. And my final bellyache (promise) is the red key room. I know 'dark' is right there in the title, but I found it a little hard to see the enemies in there. Besides all that, this is a solid, simple level. That imp in the exit such a classic Doom thing; I can't help but laugh.

Extremely helpful, thank you. I might make the dark section a bit lighter and move the blue key monster closet trigger

[Earnesttrout]

https://doomshack.org/uploads/Dark secrets 1.3.zip

This version fixes the container (finally) and also makes the red key room a bit lighter.

I also moved the green armour on hard so look out for that. :)

(Edit) I moved the blue key trigger so it should happen even if you don't jump out of the window.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Earnesttrout
forgot to mention something

[phoo]

1 hour ago, StrangerRanger said:

Try to play your map on other source port such as Crispy Doom, save game in various places and see what's their file size. The savegame buffer limit is 180kb, but it may also crash on ~175kb as well.

Yeah, not sure how strict this limit is being enforced? I'm getting ~424 kb (in PrBoom+ UM) and that's just saving as soon as you start the map. :(

Honestly, I'd probably have to scrap this entirely, not seeing a feasible way to reduce this lmao

Edited February 19, 2022 by phoo

[StrangerRanger]

10 minutes ago, phoo said:

Yeah, not sure how strict this limit is being enforced. I'm getting ~424 kb (in PrBoom+ UM) and that's just saving as soon as you start the map. :(

Honestly, I'd probably have to scrap this entirely, not seeing a feasible way to reduce this lmao

Yeah the statics limits aren't fun but you can still release it as a limit removing map. I'd play it

[Gibbon]

59 minutes ago, phoo said:

Yeah, not sure how strict this limit is being enforced? I'm getting ~424 kb (in PrBoom+ UM) and that's just saving as soon as you start the map. :(

Honestly, I'd probably have to scrap this entirely, not seeing a feasible way to reduce this lmao

What I always do is open up the maps in Doom 2 and take the sizes there as a rough estimate for vanilla complexity and go from there.  Something like every sector, test.  If ok, new sector, test..  vanilla mapping is fun but can be tough if you just go all out and blow through the limits :D 

[phoo]

4 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

What I always do is open up the maps in Doom 2 and take the sizes there as a rough estimate for vanilla complexity and go from there.  Something like every sector, test.  If ok, new sector, test..  vanilla mapping is fun but can be tough if you just go all out and blow through the limits :D 

I mean I'm within limits regarding visplanes and drawseg, it's really just the save file limit that's being exceeded here. 499 monsters and quite a bit of action, so that seems like that's the main culprit. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by phoo

[Gibbon]

11 minutes ago, phoo said:

I mean I'm within limits regarding visplanes and drawseg, it's really just the save file limit that's being exceeded here. 499 monsters and quite a bit of action, so that seems like that's the main culprit. 

Highly likely yes.  That's a ton of monsters!

[Doomkid]

Guys, please don’t beat yourselves up over the save game limit. It’s absurdly low - too low if you want to go beyond “Fava Beans” in terms of creativity.. Practically all of my favourite wads from 1996-1999 break the limit: Hellrun2, Bermuda, Area51, DeepAtak, etc etc.. The savegame buffer, drawseg limit, and even to a certain degree the sprite limit have always been “soft limits” as far as myself and my projects are concerned. Saving aside, if the wad doesn’t outright crash Vanilla Doom, I’m fine with that.

 

If you want to go oldschool and play in DosBox with saves, grab a copy of Doom32, Boom, or DOS Doom Legacy (or several other DOS exes that I’m failing to recall right now). You can get those lovely crunchy pixels while not worrying about the game going EEEEEEEEE soon as you try to save :)

[StrangerRanger]

Spoiler

35 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Guys, please don’t beat yourselves up over the save game limit. It’s absurdly low - too low if you want to go beyond “Fava Beans” in terms of creativity.. Practically all of my favourite wads from 1996-1999 break the limit: Hellrun2, Bermuda, Area51, DeepAtak, etc etc.. The savegame buffer, drawseg limit, and even to a certain degree the sprite limit have always been “soft limits” as far as myself and my projects are concerned. Saving aside, if the wad doesn’t outright crash Vanilla Doom, I’m fine with that.

 

If you want to go oldschool and play in DosBox with saves, grab a copy of Doom32, Boom, or DOS Doom Legacy (or several other DOS exes that I’m failing to recall right now). You can get those lovely crunchy pixels while not worrying about the game going EEEEEEEEE soon as you try to save :)

 

Well, that's very relieving to hear! Just when I thought my map is almost finished, the savegame buffer error appeared again, then you posted this. Thank you, Doomkid!

[Anonymous Space Marine]

Hello!

 

I've only ever made a handful of maps, but here goes:

 

Title: Vile Streets

Time: About 2 weeks, on and off

MIDI file: Doomkid_Riff

 

Tested in Chocolate Doom and GZDoom

Co-op compatible
Multiplayer compatible

 

"Jamal Jones peers down an alleyway and spots an Archvile rapidly closing in. He ducks into a derelict structure and readies his bayonet. It's time to get up close and personal!"

 

Link: https://wadhosting.com/Wad/2545C1EA1244966315C99A0E5A29FDD2561DC238

 

Thank you Doomkid, for inspiring me to get into mapping! I learned a lot and had fun making it.

[Sectorslayer]

Hello! My map reached the playtesting phase. Posting to finally grab a slot!

It's currently balanced around UV and runs on Chocolate Doom. Although I hit the dreaded savebuffer limit.

I will continue working on it and send updates, adding difficulty levels, multiplayer starts and a more detail. So feedback is welcome!

 

Title: Corporate Secret

Author: @sectrslayr

Theme: Techbase with a hellish basement

MIDI: "Stealth Mode" by Jimmy (Plutonia MIDI Pack)

Difficulties: not yet implemented

Download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ye_IFDVjNyewFu97jEe6fUWjL6ue4Y--/view?usp=sharing

 

[Jastrzab Trzeci]

On 2/18/2022 at 5:38 PM, Blexor said:

 

"Babylon 1816" (Jastrzab Trzeci)

  Hide contents

This one's pretty abstract, no mistake about that. Together with the title I can't help but wonder if there's some context that I'm missing. I had some shenanigans involving monsters and teleporters a couple times during my playthrough. Most notably in the room with the rocket launcher, where a mancubus followed me through one... and got stuck on the other side. I'm no expert on vanilla limits, but some reason I couldn't get this map to boot in Chocolate Doom, so I guess it must be in excess of some one. Finally, you expressed doubts about the MIDI, but honestly I think it fits the strange environments here pretty well.

Thanks for the feedback :)

.

 

[mgr_inz_rafal]

Hi!

This is my attempt. IRL issues stole some free time so I was a bit in a rush. But maybe that's ok because the map is already too big IMHO. The most recent version of the map is in the following post: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2461726

 

Theme: hell + techbase + caverns :D
Designed for a rather bright kind of sky (the blue one doesn't fit well).

Title: "Techbase Damaged By Hell"

So unique!

 

Few highlights:

• It's a map for rather a skillful player
• It promotes exploration - secrets help a lot, but they are easy to spot.
• Can be finished w/o secrets. I did it, so can you :)
• Should not crash vanilla (maybe except the savegame limit), but I encourage you to play in Crispy, since vanilla has a bug so that when you reload the monsters became inactive, which makes the teleport traps broken :(
• May look dull in gzDoom and in other high-resolution setups - the amount of detail is just enough not to crash vanilla

Now I'm gonna have fun playing some of the great entries I've seen in this thread :)

 

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

 

Have a great week!

 

PS. I forgot to add deathmatch starts - will fix it tomorrow.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by mgr_inz_rafal
Map has been updated

[Clippy]

22 hours ago, sectrslayr said:

Hello! My map reached the playtesting phase. Posting to finally grab a slot!

It's currently balanced around UV and runs on Chocolate Doom. Although I hit the dreaded savebuffer limit.

I will continue working on it and send updates, adding difficulty levels, multiplayer starts and a more detail. So feedback is welcome!

 

Title: Corporate Secret

Author: @sectrslayr

Theme: Techbase with a hellish basement

MIDI: "Stealth Mode" by Jimmy (Plutonia MIDI Pack)

Difficulties: not yet implemented

Download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ye_IFDVjNyewFu97jEe6fUWjL6ue4Y--/view?usp=sharing

 

 

Great map as always - hitscanners gave me grief at the start - still not the most familiar with the resources here but when I found the over powered cattle prod it was a delight to poke ppl with lol - good times

 

 

[Mark Bloom]

I should've made a smaller map...

 

Well, I fixed my crash in the second room. This was related to sound propagation, so I shuffled monster closets, and it's fine, until I reach certain point of map (first 2 barons), where it just crashes no matter what :(. I'm afraid it's somehow related to the nodebuilder - so some parts of the map are just "corrupted" and any act within them leads to crash (come to think of it - my closets were linked to these parts as well).

 

Anyway - here is V2 of The Cauldron.

- Fixed several oversights with visplane overflow

- Changed geometry of Blue Key maze and added visual responce that it is required to find 4 switches

- Rebalanced ammo and health pickups

- Added a few monsters to empty spaces

 

>>The_cauldron_V2<<

 

Edit: I think that the crash could occur because of Blockmap overflow but if it's actually what's happening - I don't know yet how to fix the map besides lol just make it smaller

Edited February 21, 2022 by Mark Bloom
Found a clue