JAMAL JONES TRILOGY - Old development thread - [Doomkid's 20 Years Mapping Contest]

[ChippiHeppu]

My map is finally ready for playtesting!

 

Title: Charred Remains

Slot: MAP13

Music: Bleeding Grounds by Jimmy

Tested on: GZDoom, PrBoom+, Chocolate Doom

Skill levels implemented.

 

Download

 

Screenshots:

Spoiler

 

[Vladguy]

Made a quick update fixing up some stuff, mainly including the teleport closets, and also extending the exit.

https://doomshack.org/uploads/Running_Down (quick update).wad

[Doomkid]

On 9/18/2022 at 3:52 AM, jacnowak said:

And just as an interesting curiosity (and maybe advice for people making vanilla maps so that they don't make the same mistake as me):

I used "zokumbsp - Optimize for vanilla" build configuration in Ultimate Doom Builder...

Don't do that :)

Unfortunately it passes "z=0" argument to ZokumBSP which according to its documentation does the folllowing:

 

"This option produces a smaller blockmap. This works flawlessly, in fact
better, when maps are played in the original engine and Chocolate Doom. There
is however a known bug in some ports, like MBF, and those based on this port
where a poor optimization will skip this header without actually checking that
it is a zero-header. Such ports will have very faulty collission detection in
every area in the map. If one is aiming for newer ports where this has been
fixed, classic Doom or Chocolate Doom, this option is generally safe. There is
a fix for this header in newer versions of the Eternity Engine. GZdoom
generally ignores the blockmap, and should work fine with or without this
option."

 

It was working fine for me as I was testing in Crispy, Eternity and GZDoom.

It looks that the bug has also been fixed in DSDA-Doom.

But I checked with prBoom+ 2.5.1.4 and the map indeed has a ton clipping issues everywhere...

 

Sorry for the trouble @Doomkid  - hopefully it's not too late to apply the fix!

E1M13_damneddam.zip

Just now saw this post - it’s no trouble at all, good job identifying what happened!

[Arsinikk]

Here's my review / thoughts on the new map (UV)!

 

MAP13: Charred Remains - @ChippiHeppu

Spoiler

Thoughts:

Don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly don't have a lot to say about this map (I wrote this beforehand... lol it seems I had quite a bit to say), since I found the overall combat and progression of the map to be really solid. It's honestly reminded me of Eternal's maps the way the you overlap across areas and start to open new ones. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

 

Progression wise, the only thing I wasn't thrilled about was the fact that the yellow bars must be opened remotely, while the blue and red skull bars could be opened directly... I'm not really sure how you could fix this, but once I had done the yellow key section and grabbed the blue key, I got confused for a bit looking for the blue switch to use it on, only to end up using the bar directly.

 

I quite liked the way the secrets were laid out and the intuitive to figure out. I played in DSDA Doom and I suggest for the candle / rocket launcher to add a dummy sector nearby so the player can hear the teleporter lowering. I actually thought while playing that what caused the teleporter to lower was interacting with the wall where the candle was, so originally I was gonna suggest adding a SW texture on the upper/lower side so that when the player interacted with it, it'd make the switch sound for an audible cue... Although looking in the map editor I was surprised to learn that it was actually an WR that triggered it... So my dummy sector idea for an audible cue would probably be too obvious in that case.

 

The secret which I found at the end is the lowering floor secret with the hidden switch (which btw the way the secret lowers the floor is super cool). This is just my thought, but I think the shutter covering the switch makes it a little too hidden. In my opinion, most people would miss the switch anyway... It'd either remove the shutter or change the texture to something slightly more noticeable.

 

This is a minor criticism, but I think it would benefit the circle area (with the red torches and the four doors, also lowers as a secret) to have each of the doors be different. This isn't a big deal, but since all the doors / torches look the same, it can be a little confusing which door leads to what area. Symmetry in this case can cause some confusion, and having the doors be slightly different can greatly improve map traversal. I bet that players will have to open multiple doors when looking for the particular route they wanna take, especially when backtracking.

 

Also this is a minor nitpick, but I think it may benefit the outside area if another rock texture was used with STONE6. I noticed that the walls of the outside area, especially where the imp and arachnotron ambush is, was all just STONE6 and I think a little bit of texture variety would make it look better.

 

Bugs:
- the tree next to line 2932 (in the outside area to the red key) clips into the floor of the cliff next to it, I suggest moving the tree slightly away to avoid clipping in software modes / vanilla.

- 2 doors in this map have lines inside them, which makes them not open in complevel 2 / vanilla. Don't put lines inside of doors in Vanilla maps. I know these are action lines, so I'm not sure of where to put them, but like I said doors will not open in Vanilla compat.

- Speaking of doors having lines in them, one of the doors I couldn't open also has another problem. There's a WR crusher start line that actually blocks the door from being opened. In Vanilla, action lines will block other action lines from being triggered even if WR, and currently that line being in front of the door will stop it from opening (if you also removed the line inside the door as well).

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Arsinikk

[ChippiHeppu]

Thank you for the feedback @Arsinikk! I went back and addressed the issues.

 

Spoiler

 

- I added switches next to the locked bars which should hopefully mitigate the confusion. 

 

- The hidden switch for the soulsphere secret is now more visible. I also moved it down a little because I thought removing the shutter alone would make it too obvious.

 

- In the circle room I made it so that the torches for each of the doors are now in different colors. For the fourth one I removed the torches since there's only 3 color choices.

 

- More texture variety for the rocks! I think it looks a lot nicer this way.

 

- All of the mentioned bugs are now fixed. Doors now work as they should in vanilla, and the trees no longer clip into the rocks.

 

 

The Google Drive link has been updated with the latest version.

[Doomkid]

This is a really good map, I'm very pleased with the quality maps everyone is submitting!

 

@NiGHTS108 and @NeedHealth, it's no rush at all, but just wanted to check on your map progress.

[NiGHTS108]

Sorry for keeping you waiting so long DK, I'm kinda a massive procrastinator but I can promise I'll have the map done by the deadline!

 

Anyway here's a screenie of MAP17: Thunder Siege

[Doomkid]

Really cool looking map there, NiGHTS! As only you and NeedHealth haven’t submitted a map yet, don’t stress about meeting the exact deadline. Everyone else has a basically-complete map submitted so most of the hard work is done!

 

After your maps are in, I can get to the more nitty-gritty stuff like final bug fixes, creating a MAPINFO for custom skies in some maps, and making minor changes to each episode’s DeHackEd for map names and story screens. Then this wad trilogy will be just about complete! 

[b0n3]

Hi all,

 

Did a quick sweep through my map and tided up some textures and crusher linedef actions.

I think it's help create a better ambience.

 

https://wadhosting.com/Wad/C3990412F98590CD982BAB2995F44B70176698DF

 

Cheers,

 

[Firedust]

That's really messed up. Is this something a sourceport developer supposed to address or rather the person behind ZokumBSP?

 

This is far from the first time I've experienced this issue as well.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firedust

[Dubium]

Second version. Fixed all known bugs

 

no_man_village_v2.rar

[Jacek Nowak (jacnowak)]

14 hours ago, Firedust said:

That's really messed up. Is this something a sourceport developer supposed to address or rather the person behind ZokumBSP?

I think build configuration supplied with Ultimate Doom Builder should have this flag removed. It is misleading as it says "Optimize for vanilla" so it's easy to assume it's the best option to choose whenever you are making a vanilla map. And this is not the case. In fact, the only scenario I can think of when you would want this flag on is when you hit blockmap limit - you can go a bit further with your map size when you switch this on, at the expense of compatibility with some ports. In all other cases it doesn't make sense to set it, particularly when you are making a vanilla map because you want maximum compatibility. But there is nothing wrong with ZokumBSP offering this optional flag. It's turned off by default and documented.

 

Technically it is a bug that source port developers should address - the bug has been introduced in MBF so all ports that derive from it have it unless they fixed it. Eternity and DSDA-Doom fixed it, GZDoom is not affected at all as it has its own blockmap handling, not sure what is the status of Woof! or Doom Retro for example. But we can't expect this to be fixed in ports that are no longer actively developed and some people use those and they logically assume that vanilla maps should work in them as vanilla maps should work in every port.

[Doomkid]

I've done quit a bit of rebalancing for my map, gonna post a complete update of the whole project soon with all the latest maps included to make further playtesting and bugfixes that much easier to find.

 

@NiGHTS108 and @NeedHealth, could I get an update on where each of you are at with your map? Again not rushing, I'd just like to see/hear what you've got cooking so far :)

 

EDIT: Here's that new beta I promised! https://doomshack.org/uploads/JamalJones_ver_5_WIP.zip

[Doomkid]

Hey folks, the V5 beta is finally ready!

 

DOWNLOAD: https://doomshack.org/uploads/JamalJones_ver_5_WIP.zip

 

This version is only 2 maps shy of complete, although many of the bug reports by Firedust have still yet to be implemented (I still need to get on finishing that). Even with this considered, more eyes on these maps, both for fun and for playtesting, will be immensely helpful!

 

Here's the maplist so far:

 

EPISODE 1: In Judgment of Evil

 

1- Rycuz - To The Site
2- Vladguy - Running Down
3- Earnesttrout - Dark Secrets
4- Astronomical - Initialisation
5- Majipantsu - Shopping Spree
6- Glikkzy - Pollution Plant
7- Evil_scientist - PACKIN' HEAT
8- Origamyde - Wheel of Misfortune
9- HrnekBezucha - Smells Like Cordite
10- Doomkid - Base of Consequences
11- Valkiriforce - The Escapist
12- Big Smoke - Toxic Factory
13- Jacnowak - Damned Dam
14- Origamyde - Derelict Row
15- Weird Sandwich - SINISTER SLUDGE
16- sectrslayr - Corporate Secret
17- Blue Phoenix - Sewage City
18- Anonymous Space Marine - Vile Streets
19- Peccatum Mihzamiz - Inner City Evil
20- Michael Jensen - Warhevil
S1 - Goat-Avenger - FORLORN FANTASY
S2 - Big Ol' Billy - UMRK (UAC Muffin Research Kitchen)

 

EPISODE 2: One Man Jury

 

1- Skronkidonk - Edens River
2- EM - Mucopurulent Mystery
3- Borpo the Wizard - Delta Complex
4- b0n3 - Menagerie Mayhem
5- mgr_inz_rafal - Techbase Damaged By Hell
6- Osmosis Bones - Starflippers Inc.
7- Rymante - Waste 'Em
8- StrangerRanger - Contaminated Purgatory
9- Synus Vader - UAC Delta Labs
10- Doomkid - Base In the Basin
11- phoo - Gloves Off
12- Thatonespymain - Tremors
13- antares031 - Alpha Centauri Techbase
14- Argentum - Corrupted Utopia
15- Finnks13 - Slime Infestation
16- Blexor - Caustic Canyon
17- Large Cat - Final Contact
18- MtPain27 - Ezekiel 25:17
19- Ricola102 - Industrial Revulsion
20- Yumheart - Death Leap
S1 - CBM - 1World
S2 - TVdinnermasterchef - UAC R&D Weapons Facility

 

EPISODE 3: Hell's Executioner

 

1- Joe-Ilya - BASILICA
2- DrJordo - The Jury is In!
3- MEMEAIDS - Ironclad Fortress
4- NeilJohnRips - Reading the Demonic Scriptures
5- Elto Gaming - Bloodshot Sunshine
6- Jastrzab Trzeci - Babylon 1816
7- Hitboi - Devilish Belly
8- Velvetic - Amongst Blood and Fire
9- ShadesMan - BLOOD FOZZLE
10- b0n3 - Underside
11- (claimed by NeedHealth)
12- RastaManGames - Scorched Debris
13- Chippi Heppu - Charred Remains
14- Vladguy - Rocky Rumble
15- Doomkid - Brimstone Basics
16- Arsinikk - Technobabel
17- (claimed by NiGHTS108)
18- Mark Bloom - The Cauldron
19- Cammy - Grilled Billions
20- LGMaire - Future Hometown
S1- Dubium - No Man Village
S2- cannonball - Peyote Ugly

 

 

Enjoy and let us know any thoughts and observations you might have!

[TVdinnermasterchef]

Hey man, I'm not sure exactly how to increase compatibility of my map with other ports (the issues with your DSDA playthtough vs. my GZdoom playtesting leading to faulty doors, etc.). 

 

What are the main issues usually, considering my map is in Doom II format, with no ACS coding or other Vanilla incompatible resources (ignoring visplane limits)?

 

Thanks for the new beta. I'll give this a playthtough now the song is complete and I have more spare time.

[Doomkid]

Hey TVdinner, I think all that’s happened here is that some select Doom1 textures somehow got into the mix in your map, which are the ones that weren’t showing up - I can easily replace those in Doom Builder, or add the missing textures in, that’s no problem. As for things not working that do work in ZDoom - usually stuff left unintentionally tagged 0. ZDoom will still allow it to work unlike other ports. I think that’s all that’s wrong, the map is actually very close to being perfectly functional in all ports, last I checked!

[cannonball]

Just a small update;

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j33ckn3lz92sk5n/Peyote ugly.3.wad?dl=0

 

I have moved some ammo around as per the suggestion made above that gave away the final fight. I had left this update to see if any other suggestion were going to be made to improve this. Unless there are some unexpected issues then this could be close to the final version.

[NiGHTS108]

On 10/5/2022 at 2:57 AM, Doomkid said:

only 2 maps shy

 

Minor update: Yeah, I'm getting there, you ever have this banger idea for a map but then just have no time with UDB? That's me right now

[TVdinnermasterchef]

3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Hey TVdinner, I think all that’s happened here is that some select Doom1 textures somehow got into the mix in your map, which are the ones that weren’t showing up - I can easily replace those in Doom Builder, or add the missing textures in, that’s no problem. As for things not working that do work in ZDoom - usually stuff left unintentionally tagged 0. ZDoom will still allow it to work unlike other ports. I think that’s all that’s wrong, the map is actually very close to being perfectly functional in all ports, last I checked!

 

That makes sense. My first experience of Doom was the PS1 version, which came with Doom 2, Master Levels, TNT and Plutonia, with Doom on another disk I think.

 

Until a few months ago, I always thought all those maps were part of, or expansions of the original game, so added them all as resources when building the map.

 

If you'd rather replace the textures to have it  with Doom 2 textures only, I'm fine with that. Whatever is easiest for you mate.

 

I'll keep the sector tags in mind when designing maps in the future, thanks.

[zokum]

I don't have much time or energy to code much these days, but I do try to provide a bit of 'support' for zokumbsp when people encounter issues.

In more recent versions I have set most of the potentially troublesome options in zokumbsp as disabled as the default setting. This includes some things that Zennode had on as default. The tool should now act more like other node builders in that regard.

As for the vanilla-compatible, that's a bit more complex. The vast majority of ports have poor compatibility with vanilla doom2.exe. The ports will run doom2.wad and doom.wad etc just fine, but they will often fail on custom maps. They're only vanilla compatible on the smaller feature set used in the original games. They are basically vanilla wads compatible, not vanilla executable compatible nor fully pwad compatible.

I have a fair amount of unpublished data about very esoteric stuff that is broken in some ports. It's not in any file or sensible format, I just managed to trigger weird behavior with test maps. I did publish one map set, Block Rocking Bytes to let port authors test more advanced blockmap stuff that doom2.exe handle just fine.

The nasty blockmap bug was added in Boom or MBF and it is clearly a bug (faulty optimization). Maps built with that setting in zokumbsp work on a lot more ports if you turn on some sort of compatibility setting. Without the fix/compatibility setting on, there's a good chance that vanilla lmp demos will desync, so any setting you use for demo playback should work better with these blockmaps. I think PRBoom(+) has settings that allow you to play the maps just fine.

You can find posts and probably web pages that describe why the bug happens in boom/mbf-derived ports and why they most likely added this piece of code.

[NiGHTS108]

Update: Should have map done in the next few days (For real this time, sorry DK)

 

[Vladguy]

Something tells me @NeedHealth went silent since Sep 9th. Wonder where they've gone?

If they don't respond soon, somebody else might have to take their place.

[Mark Bloom]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:36 PM, Vladguy said:

Something tells me @NeedHealth went silent since Sep 9th. Wonder where they've gone?

If they don't respond soon, somebody else might have to take their place.

I'm available in case if no one else want. I'm checking posts almost daily, but sign in only to write something.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Mark Bloom

[NiGHTS108]

On 10/26/2022 at 2:35 PM, NiGHTS108 said:

Update: Should have map done in the next few days (For real this time, sorry DK)

 

 

Second update: I may or may not be a day or two late but it is genuinely just about done, all I need to do is get one small area finished and then I'll be handing this to you and some playtesters, again sorry for holding this up big time

[Doomkid]

Don’t worry, you’re not holding anything back! I felt kinda garbage last week and I’ve been working out of town this week, so I’m a little backed up in terms of getting JJ stuff done.

 

Since NeedHealth has sadly not appeared in over 2 months (hope he’s ok…) I’m going to have to free up his slot. In the interest of doing this as diplomatically as possible, I’ll start by offering the slot to @Mark Bloom as he was the first one to express interest in making an E3 map when Cammy first floated the idea of extending the campaign :)

[Cammy]

I would like to express my excitement in the prospect of another Mark Bloom map, considering the exceptional quality of his first one. :)

 

That reminds me, I have some fixes to my own map I'd like to make...

[Mark Bloom]

On it! Will report progress on the weekend. I'll try to do a short map resembling Gusta's PL2 maps.

[Vladguy]

Hey @Doomkid, just noticed that in Beta 5 the old version of MAP14 is used. Could you fix that? Thanks.

[phoo]

12 hours ago, Mark Bloom said:

On it! Will report progress on the weekend. I'll try to do a short map resembling Gusta's PL2 maps.

Sounds really cool!

[Mark Bloom]

The layout is almost done, then detailing and placing stuff. @Doomkid Is "KeenDie" state is unused? I cannot use tag 666 to open doors? Not that it'll stop me, I'll just have to re-arrange some switches, but with Keens it'll be much easier