I don't enjoy Doom anymore.

[Misty]

Tastes change, mindset changes and you're not the same person as you used to be yesterday. It's perfectly okay to move on from things that don't bring you enjoyment anymore and embrace new things and hobbies. There's no real obligation to stay in community, especially if you're tired and need time for yourself. People will always welcome you back like a lost child. It's more a general advice for everyone who feels that way. 

[Grieferus]

14 hours ago, MFG38 said:

Now that I've caught your attention with my unapologetically clickbaity thread title, allow me to explain.

 

I've played Doom for almost 15 years, and in that time, I've played through almost every official Doom game at least once, as well as hundreds, if not thousands, of user-created wads. The latest of them was Hell Revealed 2, which I just finished. While I did enjoy some of it, a lot of it especially towards the end was frustrating to the point where I wanted to be done with it ASAP and unashamedly resorted to cheats to get past some parts. MAP28 and MAP29 stood out as particularly unenjoyable maps, the former with its switch hunt design tendency and the latter with its borderline unfair gameplay, especially when it introduced hitscanners in open areas with no cover whatsoever. I could talk a whole lot more about the problems that Hell Revealed 2 has, but I'll save the space.

 

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make with this thread is that my preferences in level design have become extremely specific over the years. Of course, they've been shaped by all the wads I've played, but how specific those preferences are has become a bit of a problem. Reason being that they've become so specific that I lose almost any and all enjoyment of a map if its design shows the slightest hint of deviating from them. If I press a switch and can't immediately see what it did and where, my enjoyment decreases. If I have to somehow deal with 50 hitscanners in an open area with no cover, my enjoyment decreases. If I'm forced to pick up an entire medikit at 96% health because it's smack-dab in the middle of a 64-wide corridor, my enjoyment decreases. If a key or switch mandatory for progression is behind an unmarked secret wall, my enjoyment decreases.

 

As long as those design tropes occur in rare and isolated instances, I can put up with them, but have them occur enough times in a single map and I start to lose my temper. Thankfully level design philosophies have changed over the past 20 years and those level design annoyances are at least a lot less common. That said, not every Doom wad was made in the past 20 years. Every time I run into a level design trope I don't agree with (or downright loathe), my enjoyment of a particular wad decreases slightly. And it honestly shocks me how badly so many pre-2010s wads hold up when it comes to their level design because of how frequently they employ those tropes.

 

Am I the only one who feels this way?

It's easy.

Just leave Doom for a while.

[hybridial]

You're definitely not alone in wanting fairly specific gameplay from Doom WADs. I mean, I personally play games to have fun; fun for me is not some of the design some WAD designers like to use, under the assumption everything they do has to be ball busting to challenge players. For me a great WAD is like Doom Zero, clever ideas peppered throughout with a difficulty level just a little bit above Doom 2. 

 

I can enjoy replaying the stuff I do like quite a bit but recent I have decided not to play any Doom for a while. This is with the knowledge I will return, but right now I'm catching up on some major releases on the Series X I recently got. 

[Roofi]

For my part, I appreciate Doom as much but in a different way. I can't spend hours on it as a simple player anymore, that's why I do mapping, reviews or longplays which allow me to have a much less passive way of enjoying Doom.

 

As for my taste, I'm always happy when high quality wads come out today. However, there are no longer any great classics that I like to play over and over again. I can't count the number of times I played Hell Revealed, Alien Vendetta or Kama Sutra. 

 

On the other hand, the big modern wads leave me quite indifferent. I like to play them the first time, but I usually don't play them again. I played Eviternity , Sunlust , Valiant or Ancient Aliens only once for instance. They definitely have their qualities but I have the impression to feel less the "spirit of Doom" (highly subjective) when I play them.

 

As the others said, tastes change, that's normal. For my part, I like to remember that Doom is a game that will soon be 30 years old, so I'm more interested in the 90', 2000 era.

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Roofi

[Rudolph]

4 hours ago, MFG38 said:

I have. About 150 of them.

Any megawads in the lot? If not, have you considered making them into ones?

 

9 hours ago, 666shooter said:

The one with all the precision running around the pit, where you have to stay inside the candles, running around the alter, and hit all four switches and then time your run through the lava pit to get past the elevators, I think it was 24? Except the linedefs didn't seem to match up exactly where the borders with the candles were, so I would always hit a teleport line and never could get the switches in time.

That is odd. Jimmy usually makes quality maps.

 

Unless he has since disavowed the mapset, it might be worth bringing up the issue to him.

[Rudolph]

EDIT: Double-post, sorry!

 

2 hours ago, hybridial said:

For me a great WAD is like Doom Zero, clever ideas peppered throughout with a difficulty level just a little bit above Doom 2.

Yeah, despite its title, Doom Zero feels in many ways like Doom 2.5 with its new enemy and boss.

 

All it lacks is a new weapon or power-up!

Edited May 24, 2022 by Rudolph

[MFG38]

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Any megawads in the lot?

 

A few. Most of the stuff I've released is either single maps or sets of less than 10, though.

[Rudolph]

10 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

A few. Most of the stuff I've released is either single maps or sets of less than 10, though.

Maybe you could try putting them together into megawads. With about 150 maps, I reckon you could make about five of them.

 

If your design preferences made their way into your maps, I would definitely be interested in checking them out! :)

[MFG38]

6 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Maybe you could try putting them together into megawads.

 

Eh, too many different styles and map formats for that to really be feasible. Though an idea I thought up the other day and am contemplating is packaging (almost) all of the wads into a compilation of sorts, complete with a hub map and some fun facts you could read as you play. How I'd pull off the latter would likely be by way of either hidden extra switches or special markers you'd walk into.

[Rudolph]

9 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

Eh, too many different styles and map formats for that to really be feasible. Though an idea I thought up the other day and am contemplating is packaging (almost) all of the wads into a compilation of sorts, complete with a hub map and some fun facts you could read as you play. How I'd pull off the latter would likely be by way of either hidden extra switches or special markers you'd walk into.

Good idea! Let us know if you go forward with it.

[Zero Master's Clone]

5 hours ago, MFG38 said:

Don't worry, I don't plan on leaving this community anytime soon. I still love Doom and the people here too much to consider it.

that's good to hear :)

 

In my experience it has always been once a member of the DOOM community always a member of the DOOM community.

[Csucskos]

OK, I've realized, that you were not looking for solutions but for empathy. Unfortunately I'm not really good with the latter. Hopefully the others can satisfy your needs and I'm sorry for my first response.

[LadyMistDragon]

Speaking as someone with a far broader pallete, that's really too bad. But I've definitely started to experience some of that over the past month or two (and going even further back to some degree). Thankfully however, I'll be shifting priorities soon for a reason you might soon become aware of (I could come out to say it but I like people finding things on their own in some cases).

[vdgg]

23 hours ago, MFG38 said:

If I'm forced to pick up an entire medikit at 96% health because it's smack-dab in the middle of a 64-wide corridor, my enjoyment decreases.

 

Maybe the mapper wants to give more reward for an aggresive player and less for a cautious player.

Maybe it is a bonus for having completed some parts of the map.

Would no medikit in this spot be better than a medikit?

 

For me the supporters of this point of view represent a certain school of thought. "A health item is there so you can pick it up any time you want". I disagree and I am sure Sandy Petersen with his E2M6 nukage section would disagree :)

[DuckReconMajor]

From the OP it sounds like something most people can relate to.

Like an album you really enjoy, but as you repeat it over and over again there's certain tracks you skip, until it's just your favorite song on repeat, and then eventually you just have to take a break from it. The parts you don't like as much feel like BS and you are less willing to go through them.

For Doom and other games, in my case instead of searching out maps that give a perfect experience, I just play around with cheats or mods or something.

But in the end, if you start feeling this way sometimes you just gotta walk away for a few months.

[ChopBlock223]

I understand that you played Hell Revealed 2, and that you weren't satisfied. This reaction is perfectly normal and healthy, and nothing to worry about, my recommended course of action is to not play Hell Revealed 2.

[Biodegradable]

Sounds like classic burnout to me, fam. Just take a break from the game for a while.

[zokum]

It would be interesting to have some sort of "wads like this" feature on a rating site. With enough data it should be able to recommend maps for you that you would enjoy based on your preferences. If someone curated meta data it could become very attractive very quickly. It's still possible without this, but you would need a lot more data. You would have to figure out patterns based on what a user likes and from that cross reference it with other users to find factors a map have in common with other maps.

[Andromeda]

11 hours ago, alackoftrust said:

:donkeykongwhat:

Indeed, Hell Revealed II is awesome!

[ChopBlock223]

I'm being cheeky about it, but I really don't find HR2 to be all that enjoyable, and never really got what people liked about it.

[zokum]

6 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

I'm being cheeky about it, but I really don't find HR2 to be all that enjoyable, and never really got what people liked about it.

Loads of a very specific type of game play with some interesting tributes, homages, variations and so on. It's a map set catered to those who know the original games and the original Hell Revealed.

 

It is by no means perfect and a bit quirky at times, but it has a lot of old school charm. The map quality is a bit uneven. The level of visual quality is different from map to map. Some look quite decent while others have a more 1994-1996 aestethic to them. There is overall a feeling of retro nostalgia to gameplay we don't find in the games and most of the wads released around the time HR2 was released. Very few games are made in the Doom 2 style of gameplay, most are more like Half Life. They all tend to have a lot of story, few enemies at once, slotting, etc loads of cut scenes and linear progress. Hell Revealed is nothing like that.

Personally I am not a big fan of the gameplay puzzles that require you to do something in a weird manner you couldn't foresee, and HR 2 has some of those. Typical of that kind of gameplay is:
Monster blocking lines making some locations much safer than they appear to be.
Secrets that are mandatory in a hectic arena that you can't see until you go there.
Secrets that open up just before you enter an area, requiring you to backtrack to get ammo/power ups.
Untelegraphed traps that are very unforgiving (Rick Dangerous style).

In a way many of these maps are catered to those who like to study a map in an editor, rather than just play it in order to beat it. It favors methodical efficiency and good doom map knowledge as well as skill at playing the game. Mount Pain 27 in his Dean of Doom series didn't like having to go to the wiki to figure things out. This is a bit like complaining a puzzle game is too hard and requiring a guide to quickly win it. A competent doomer could study the map in an editor and find it out themselves how to beat encounters. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

Map sets like HR2 are often built around the idea that you should speedrun/record demos for the map. Gameplay is designed with that in mind, not with the first time player plodding around trying to figure out where to go next. It allows for a player to carefully plan and master a series of difficult challenges without any problem and with great speed. They are usually designed for pistol starts. When playing for a longer run over multiple maps, continuous play lowers the difficulty per map (usually), but the overall challenge might be harder since there are multiple maps where everything needs to be done well in order to succeed.

For all we know, a certain location in a map might be a homage to another map, but we don't recognize it, this can also affect the design choices. Mappers often pull inspiration and referenced from all over the wad landscape.

Update: I rewrote some paragraphs and made it more clear what I meant. Also added afew points. Sorry for any initial confusion.

Edited May 29, 2022 by zokum
Logic fixes, updated some points, added minor things.

[ZeroTheEro]

it's fine to move on. I don't play Doom as often when I have games I do play with other people (Arma 3, Zomboid, Barotrauma to name a few), and I would pull up my Switch for Doom if I am that bored.

I wish I'd stream Doom but I just can't be arsed to.

 

[StalkerBlade]

Usually I don't play very many custom maps or map sets because of these exact reasons. I tend to get more enjoyment from creating custom things in Doom then playing them these days, unfortunately. Imo, a lot of maps I've played tend to have the issues you listed or they put too much weight on the monsters and combat...Without any breaks or anything in between, they start to feel exhausting to play through and I eventually just quit and never touch them again..

 

It is possible to create interesting encounters and events in a map without any monsters or combat through simple exploration or scripting, but I feel it gets over looked a little bit...

[Budoka]

On 5/25/2022 at 1:44 PM, zokum said:

It would be interesting to have some sort of "wads like this" feature on a rating site. With enough data it should be able to recommend maps for you that you would enjoy based on your preferences. If someone curated meta data it could become very attractive very quickly. It's still possible without this, but you would need a lot more data. You would have to figure out patterns based on what a user likes and from that cross reference it with other users to find factors a map have in common with other maps.

Completely agreed. Doom Radio was discussing the idea a few years back and they eventually dismissed it because of the potential for say, Alien Vendetta to skew the results into irrelevance, but when using less universally praised WADs as a basis it should work just fine.

 

Also OP... why would you play Hell Revealed 2, there's the cause of your entire problem. ...Well, not really, but still, as someone who still likes the first Hell Revealed in spite of its faults, I have to say I never warmed up to the fan sequel. I get you generally speaking, I'm also one of those people who prefer 2015 and later style WADs to the older stuff, with some exceptions like Erik Alm and Joshy's works(which I guess are precursors to modern mapping styles anyway, just a lot less refined in comparison). 

 

I've caught flak on this forum before for stating many of the 90s and early 2000s mapping style quirks amount to defectively unprofessional design and are irritating as hell for no benefit(even in recent WADs that deliberately emulate old-school gameplay and/or aesthetic sensibilities which I tend to skip for that reason - and I'm growing increasingly frustrated that they seem to be the more common sort of megawads people produce - or in old WADs i actually like such as HR), but I've never stopped thinking so. Sometimes I feel like I revel in having the most cookie-cutter taste in PWADs possible, but that's fine, in fact I think being unoriginal is an underrated quality these days.

[MFG38]

8 minutes ago, Budoka said:

why would you play Hell Revealed 2, there's the cause of your entire problem.

 

It was a channel point redemption on my Twitch channel. I didn't want to feel bad for the guy who requested it by leaving it unfinished.

Edited June 8, 2022 by MFG38

[Gregor]

Hell Revealed 2 just plain sucks. Always has. I'd argue that after playing it you're unable to objectively judge how you feel about Doom because you still suffer from the aftereffects of having endured through one of the worst well-known megawads ever made that will make anyone question their faith in Doom.

Just wait for the clouds to clear and the joy to play to rekindle.

 

"Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, wir betreten, feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!"

Edited June 8, 2022 by Gregor

[Captain POLAND]

Well then, maybe play something else?

[princetontiger]

Dude I know exactly how you feel.

 

I answer the same conundrum with long pauses (years) between picking classic Doom back up again.

 

At a certain point, all I want to do is play techbase maps circa 1997-2007... Once I hit that phase, I take a long break.

Edited June 8, 2022 by princetontiger

[stinkfist]

I go in and out with doom. Some weeks that’s all I’m playing weather it be some sort of mega wad, or maybe I found some cool people on zandronum. Then there’s weeks or months where my attention is just elsewhere (rgj Xbox, hl-1 mods, or even the newer doom titles) there has been times a year will pass and I haven’t touched doom. But when I do, it scratches that itch like no other. I think it’s important to not force yourself to play just cause you like it. Same with level design, if you’re just not in the mood, put it down for now. When you force it, the feeling just isn’t the same