Do you think the Icon Of Sin is a good final boss? If not, how would you improve it?

[nerdybunny]

The general opinion on the Icon Of Sin boss fight in Doom II seems to be negative. I've seen a lot of people rag on it for being not fun, buggy, disappointing, etc. but I wanted to gather the general opinions on the map to see if what I've seen matches up with reality?

 

Do you think that the Icon Of Sin is a good final boss and conclusion for Doom II? If you don't think so, how would you improve it? I personally believe it's a serviceable final boss; I like the race against time element it has and the challenge of lining up precision shots to destroy the boss's brain. Ideally if I could go back in time and revise the map, it would be nice to make the Icon's brain-hole wider as it's tough to judge when to fire without wasting rockets to time a shot and, depending on the random monsters that it chooses to spawn, you can get knocked off by a monster you don't have much recourse against.

Edited May 31, 2022 by nerdybunny

[Rudolph]

I feel like Doom 64's Mother Demon is the way to do the Icon of Sin fight.

[thelamp]

The random monsters spawning part of it I like, it puts pressure on the player and adds replay value. It's just that the timed rocket shot is not only annoying to do, but the lack of feedback when you hit it is underwhelming. The rocket just disappears behind a midtex leaving the player wondering "wait... did I get it that time?" until, of course, the level abruptly ends with an explosion that you probably aren't even looking at because you've busy fending off the incoming horde. In short, I'd make the bossbrain easier to hit but with more health (or maybe demonic meat shields) and I'd blow up the whole damn room when it ends

[Rudolph]

3 minutes ago, thelamp said:

The rocket just disappears behind a midtex leaving the player wondering "wait... did I get it that time?" until, of course, the level abruptly ends with an explosion that you probably aren't even looking at because you've busy fending off the incoming horde.

Well, to be fair, the Icon of Sin audibly growls in pain whenever the rocket hits the brain or when it is dying.

[TheLippyServer]

I think a lot of the negativity surrounding the Icon of Sin is due to 3 primary things:

 

1: It's not a full map. It's a single encounter in a single, under-detailed and boring room.

 

2: It being just a wall texture and not an actual enemy with an animated sprite. (This coupled with #1 make it feel rushed and kind of lazy imo)

 

3: The actual mechanics of the encounter, specifically the random enemy generation and elevator riding, grind against each other in a way that can be more frustrating and cheap than challenging and fun. Constantly getting blown off the elevator because you got too many unlucky spawns is just annoying af.

 

The final level of TNT is an actual map and they ditched the whole dumb timed elevator shooting element so I actually like it a fair bit better. Honestly though, I kinda feel like Doom generally isn't that well suited to "boss fights" as a map style. I feel like the sort of "impossible odds crucible" style of something like Scythe or Speed of Doom just works better for this particular game. Even a lot of great custom wads fall flat on their faces when trying boss levels imo.

[Shepardus]

The Icon of Sin is a brilliant commentary on how Doomguy's true nemesis is the neck injury that prevents him from looking up or down. It could only be improved by connecting the Icon's right horn to the rest of its head.

[Lippeth]

I never had an issue with it, it was one of the maps I replayed the most as a kid.

 

I really like how D2TWID did it, having to raise a platform that can be walked onto, firing rockets and teleporting to to flip a switch that quickly gives rockets a clear path into the brain before closing again.

[666shooter]

3 minutes ago, Lippeth said:

I never had an issue with it, it was one of the maps I replayed the most as a kid.

 

I really like how D2TWID did it, having to raise a platform that can be walked onto, firing rockets and teleporting to to flip a switch that quickly gives rockets a clear path into the brain before closing again.

Honestly, D2TWID is one of my least favorite reinterpretations of this fight; I find the timing immensely frustrating to pull off properly and have never been able to finish the level as a result. My favorite IOS remaster is definitely Memento Mori (though I don't wholeheartedly love the rest of the Wad, this fight just feels smart and satisfying; good space to maneuver with a clear direction and goal), followed by something like Running Late, where the IOS is used as an interesting mechanic more than an actual fight. (Though this can be used atrociously as well- see, 1994 Tune Up Project, or, So You Think You Can Speed-Run?)

In general, to relate to this thread, I would have rather seen a new enemy entirely, though outside of something like Winter's Fury, I think a lot of Wads tend to overpower their "boss monsters" in a way that becomes tedious and grindy rather than satisfying to kill.

Maybe something like a teleporting summoning monster, keeping the IOS theme, where you fight it in different arenas, could be an interesting replacement? It would probably need MBF21 or something even more flexible, but it would be nice to have it summon a small grouping of different demons every x-tics, and then teleport when it takes enough damage, summoning a different type of enemy type, until you kill it in the final area.

... And now some psychopath is going to do that from archviles to Cyberdemons for the challenge lolz. :/

[Doomkid]

Underrated-but-flawed boss battle. Literally never gets credit for being 10x more engaging than the laughable “boss fights” of Doom 1, which always annoys me. I guess this proves that players prefer a mostly forgettable pushover of a final fight than one that is a little too frustrating, which is interesting to note.

 

The IoS would be perfect for me if: 1) the surrounding arena actually looked cool and Hellish, rather than being a boring slime box.

 

2), if you want to go above and beyond: Make it a Cyberdemon-like enemy that shoots enemy spawn cubes. This would be WAY less fun since, like literally every other enemy in Doom, it would just be “shoot til it dies”, zero tactics or timing required, boring as all get-out, but would seemingly please players a lot more.

 

Maybe playing NES games as a kid is the reason I was able to beat this boss at 8 years old without cheats - who knows. It’s a piece of piss but a lot of people find it super hard. Even if you die though, because it’s not (yet another) long-ass drawn-out map, you can just try again fairly effortlessly.. You’re not punished all that hard for losing.

 

My idea of fun just sometimes doesn’t jive with other players, and this is probably the boldest “common” example I know of. I’ve made 2 IoS fights myself in wads over the years, thought they were really fun to play personally, but they did change the formula a bit.

[The BMFG]

by making him an actual enemy 

[Captain POLAND]

59 minutes ago, 666shooter said:

Maybe something like a teleporting summoning monster, keeping the IOS theme, where you fight it in different arenas, could be an interesting replacement? It would probably need MBF21 or something even more flexible, but it would be nice to have it summon a small grouping of different demons every x-tics, and then teleport when it takes enough damage, summoning a different type of enemy type, until you kill it in the final area.

... And now some psychopath is going to do that from archviles to Cyberdemons for the challenge lolz. :/

 

Sounds like D'sparil in Heretic to me.

 

 

[thiccyosh]

I don't like the Icon, here's how I would improve him.

 

By not making it a roll of the dice when you start the map. Fighting the Icon always goes like this for the first timer:

 

You start, die maybe because RNG chose to spawn in an Arch-Vile, reload or restart just to pump some stupid rockets into a wall texture. One at a time of course.

 

You can't even 100% this stupid map. Here's an idea to make the boss not a constant pain: Make the demon spawners destroyable, even if they're just in secrets. Puts less pressure on the player if they're nosy enough, and makes the fight somewhat tolerable. And perhaps make the boss map an actual map, not just one room with one Revenant.

[Cinnamon]

1 hour ago, TheLippyServer said:

1: It's not a full map. It's a single encounter in a single, under-detailed and boring room.

 

2: It being just a wall texture and not an actual enemy with an animated sprite. (This coupled with #1 make it feel rushed and kind of lazy imo)

 

3: The actual mechanics of the encounter, specifically the random enemy generation and elevator riding, grind against each other in a way that can be more frustrating and cheap than challenging and fun. Constantly getting blown off the elevator because you got too many unlucky spawns is just annoying af.

(shortened quote for emphasis)

 

I don't mind #2 that much personally even if it's certainly a letdown. The other two hit the nail on the head, however. That's why TNTs version of MAP30 was always my favorite among the IWADs, despite the map being pretty crap... It's funny though; there's a bunch of RNG in DOOM but it never feels as intrusive as it does for the IoS.

 

Another observation I've made is that beating the IoS isn't typically about player movement, which is the most fun part of the game (imo, et.c). No, it's about standing still and "aiming." :')

 

I don't have much in terms of improvement suggestions, but I will add that the most fun I've had with the IoS is on MAP18 (I think) of Ancient Aliens... Where you don't actually fight it. So making the fight less about platforming and more about running is probably a place to start.

[Ludi]

BAHAHAHAHA, HELL NO!
 

But seriously, I feel like the final boss could have been so much better. The Icon Of Sin doesn't really test the skills you learn throughout the wad (movement, weapon and ammo management, target priority, etc.) I would have loved a tough-as-nails demon with similar abilities to the player, like Mr. X from Scythe 2. Alas, that may have been too much for 1994. 

 

Having to plant your ass down on an elevator is not only monotonous, but completely removed from the rest of the game. Id was never really good at bosses, were they? xd

[SilentD00mer]

I'd like if it was a fight similar to D'sparil, with two forms, but with the boss able to do evasive moves (instead of the teleportation, this is the most annoying part of the D'sparil fight). Yeah, a boss with two forms is cliche, but I guess a good boss fight can be made this way, just depending on the execution of the idea.

[Doomkid]

I want to acknowledge that the IoS requires you to learn a new skill that the rest of the game never even touched on. If there were a couple instances where you were riding lifts and needed to time a shot to hit a switch that opens a necessary door, that would have been a good means of somewhat preparing the player for the “timed shot” idea.

 

I also think killable boss cubes would have been badass.

 

I feel like we should keep time constraints in mind, though. Realistically, if the IoS arena looked really cool but was otherwise the same, I think that alone would have left a less sour taste for most players.

[gwain]

what if instead of one room it spanned over multiple open outdoor rooms that you have to shoot it could even build on other skills like doomkid said 

we would probably get more line effects from the boss and it would be more cinematic but still drawing off sandy peterson's nightmare 

Edited May 31, 2022 by gwain

[Maximum Matt]

I agree there should have been a tough level to get through before the final arena, but ol' Sand Man was probably exhausted by that point

[SilentD00mer]

11 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I also think killable boss cubes would have been badass.

Is this possible with ports like GZDoom and some scripts? Or DEHACKED?

[SMG_Man]

15 minutes ago, SilentD00mer said:

Is this possible with ports like GZDoom and some scripts?

 

Looking at the wiki, it should be doable in DECORATE alone.

[7Mahonin]

I like the spawning monsters attack, and don’t mind that it’s a wall monster. I just feel it could’ve used other attacks to keep the player struggling when trying to shoot rockets through the open passage to defeat it. There’s a boss in Duke Nukem Land of the Babes called the motherbrain and it spawns enemies but also has a laser attack that tracks the player’s movement. 

[TheFocus]

i would have The Living End be the final level.

 

[nerdybunny]

48 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I want to acknowledge that the IoS requires you to learn a new skill that the rest of the game never even touched on. If there were a couple instances where you were riding lifts and needed to time a shot to hit a switch that opens a necessary door, that would have been a good means of somewhat preparing the player for the “timed shot” idea.

 

I also think killable boss cubes would have been badass.

 

I feel like we should keep time constraints in mind, though. Realistically, if the IoS arena looked really cool but was otherwise the same, I think that alone would have left a less sour taste for most players.

 

I should have clarified in my OP that yeah, it was 1996 and I think the total development time for Doom II was, what, 6 months? After adding tons of the new custom monsters that each contained hundreds of different animation frames (with the Archvile having around 800+ animation frames) I'm sure the last thing on their mind was to add yet another brand boss monster that behaved like a Cyberdemon or Spider Mastermind.

 

Though honestly, this is a speculative thread. Go nuts. Feel free to act like you time traveled back to 1996 id and had unlimited time and resources to make the best final boss if you want.

[Solmyr]

Honestly it was kind of a disappointment, the final boss and the arena itself looked rushed and poorly thought out, it's understandable given the short development time and some other issues at the time. 

 

How would i improve it? Well, an actual map that doesn't stray far from 94 standards, Plutonia's "Gateway of Hell" comes to mind, maybe add more health to the Boss Brain, just enough to take 6 rocket explosions, then when its health is below 50%, the spawner(s) shoot boss cubes twice as fast.

 

Something else that comes to mind would be to make the IOS into a proper boss monster with 8000 health, invulnerable, cannot be targeted by other monsters and won't infight, his attacks however will harm anything that isn't the icon itself and monster spawners. 

 

The spawners themselves would be visible stationary monsters and invulnerable too, their actual health would be around 2000, when they shoot a spawn cube, they drop their invulnerability for about 15 tics, this would be signaled by a change in their sprite, idk a halo or something simillar that "disappears" Alternatively add a map quirk to provide means for the player to telefrag the spawners like Quake's Shubb-Niggurath, so the battle doesn't stretch for too long for the player to get swarmed by monsters and overwhelmed by the IoS attacks. 

 

Once all the spawners are dead, the IoS drops its invulnerability, to make things more interesting it would shoot 8 floor crawling explosive flames each time it enters its pain state.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Solmyr

[spineapple tea]

Personally, I enjoy the Icon of Sin. Technically speaking, it's a downgrade from Doom 1's (already disappointing) bosses being real monsters you can run around and fight. The process of fighting the Icon feels like a fun game and is fairly satisfying to get good at. The monsters spawning at random kind of sucks though since you almost never fight them and it's pretty much a restart if you get an archvile. If I could change anything, I'd scrap the whole thing in exchange for a new boss monster like Doom 1 had. Maybe it could keep the mechanic of having to time shots as it has a shield or something. The variety it could add to Doom's combat outside of boss maps could be interesting too; you'd have to time your shots to not waste ammo while also having to deal with everything around you. It could have a similar amount of health to a cyberdemon so you could still 2-3 shot it with a BFG, although you'd probably want a larger selection of attacks to make the fight not completely boring. A larger moveset would also help with vanilla dehacked modding. Would this be possible for 1994? Maybe, I'm 16 and don't know all the tech restrains of the 90's. Would it be better than the Icon of Sin? Hopefully. Would it be fun to fight as a normal enemy in other maps? If used sparingly, perhaps, but that's just my idea. The Icon of Sin isn't as bad as everyone says when it comes to the context of Doom 2, personally it's the fact that many high quality megawads end on a sour rehash of the same easy fight from almost 20 years ago.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Spineapple tea

[PeterMoro]

I think he's a great final boss as the unending monster spawning makes the difficulty increase indefinitely, which is perfect for a final boss. Not only do you have to be good but you also have to be fast. 

You can only do so much with the Cyberdemon / Spider mastermind because you can easily avoid their bullets by standing behind cover.

 

(Shameles, narcissistic self-promotion): Coincidentally, my new map (coming soon) has the Icon of Sin as the final boss. I've attempted to make it the best Icon of Sin fight possible. It's a similar concept - by standing on the center lift and going to the top, you can accurately shoot a rocket at the Romero head.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I think it fucking sucks, really. I always let it stay on Earth for too long so I've never been able to beat it.

Edited May 31, 2022 by TheMagicMushroomMan
Seriously, it sucks

[sandwedge]

I've found the best icon of sin fights are rather brief.  They're not great, but at least a quick one can be kind of interesting as a diversion.  I still think crazy setpiece final battles with lots of monsters, maybe verging on slaughter or going full bore, is a better way to have a final encounter.  Heck, even Halo did away with boss monsters which I liked at the time, and I didn't enjoy the bosses in Halo 2.

 

Interesting point on the icon of sin requiring skills that have not been trained in the rest of the game.  I think this is actually a problem in other games, where a final boss has some sort of gimmick or completely different combat style or puzzle solution that feels totally different.

 

Someone get that voxel doom guy to make a 3D icon of sin that moves around, either in the wall or floating around, and we might have something.

[Firedust]

IoS maps are generally skips for me. I like what they did in Speed of Doom - survive the onslaught for a few minutes and you're done.

 

Boss fights are generally tricky to do in Doom - the one I enjoyed the most was in Amuscaria's Hellforged episode. I'd rather mappers just did some badass grand finale fight - those are always fun.

[rzh]

I feel like id was never good at making boss encounters.

All bosses in Doom and Quake suck.

Raven had some pretty cool ones, even if they're easy to cheese.

I'm still excited about fighting an Iron Lich or D'Sparil or the Heresiarch, and Korax is an example of a boss that's integrated into the level much better than the Icon of Sin.