Is it even fun to play Doom without saves?

[Nefelibeta]

4 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

Most Slaughter maps, the well-designed ones at least, don't do this.

Interestingly, a lot of slaughter maps do this. Take MSCP map03 for example, the finale of that map requires a unconventional strategy which needs you to hide in the numerous 64x64 arch-vile closets to wipe down the arch-viles first. I've seen very experienced players having trouble in that fight. Can you really call it a bad fight simply because the fight requires you to try out various strategy/gain a overall sense of the placement/space?

 

If you want to call that a bad design. Then Dimensions is filled with unfair unplayable dickish fights that nobody will ever get the chance to one shot any of them.

Dance on the Water could've been the worst slaughter wad ever designed. You might as well just give Quantum Strike a 1/5 in idgames review because it can't be beaten without foreknowledge.

[Zulk RS]

42 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

Interestingly, a lot of slaughter maps do this. Take MSCP map03 for example, the finale of that map requires a unconventional strategy which needs you to hide in the numerous 64x64 arch-vile closets to wipe down the arch-viles first. I've seen very experienced players having trouble in that fight. Can you really call it a bad fight simply because the fight requires you to try out various strategy/gain a overall sense of the placement/space?

 

 

There is a difference between Unconventional strategy/knowing about the layout and "You need to walk around this instant death pit that is completely indistinguishable from the surrounding floors."

Edited June 9, 2022 by Zulk RS
Gross mistype

[Jizzwardo]

10 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

 

Unconventional strategy/knowing about the layout and "You need to walk around this instant death pit that is completely indistinguishable from the surrounding floors."

I'm not the most experienced player in the world, but honestly I don't know about this take. I've been investing myself in slaughter and harder maps for a while now and I've never even heard of things like this being a feature of any level, not even close. I feel like things like this aren't what people are talking about when they say "can't beat a level without prior knowledge"..

[Zulk RS]

2 minutes ago, Jizzwardo said:

I'm not the most experienced player in the world, but honestly I don't know about this take. I've been investing myself in slaughter and harder maps for a while now and I've never even heard of things like this being a feature of any level, not even close. I feel like things like this aren't what people are talking about when they say "can't beat a level without prior knowledge"..

 

Okay so your quote made me realize I typed wrong. Added something that should convey what I was trying to say.

 

.

[Nefelibeta]

Misread your post, lol sry. But the dickish design choices that you mentioned simply won't be tolerated by many even if it isn't a slaughtermap. Murdoch mentioned "trap or combat encounter that cannot be reasonably anticipated" and to that I was thinking about maybe a very complicated or precise set-piece, instead of the super hyperbolical examples here.

 

There are maps that favor kinds of designs that most people won't enjoy for sure, but "bad design" and "design that I don't like" are completely two different things. If a wad existed and was discussed, there will be people enjoy that wad's type of design simply due to the fact that there are many doomers.

 

[Jizzwardo]

8 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

 

Okay so your quote made me realize I typed wrong. Added something that should convey what I was trying to say.

 

.

Alright, that's no problem, though I still kinda stand by what I said. I feel like there aren't very many wads out there that really do this "instant death floor that's indistinguishable to anything else", or really anything close to that. The vast majority of times maps require prior knowledge it's just things like planning a strategy around a tough section or whatever. In cases like that, I feel like no matter how good you are, you still devise strategies for tough maps, and just because you had to plan out a route or strategy it doesn't mean the map was badly designed, just that it expects you to puzzle it out. 

In cases like your example where it's just an instant death pit with what I assume is like, disguised as a fake floor or something(?), I just don't feel like there are enough wads like that that do this to complain about it, and the wads that do this are probably designed to be troll/meme wads anyway so why get upset over something like that?

Edit: Sorry, I kind of lost the plot on this one XD, I reread your previous post and realised you'd played a wad called "Deathtrap Dungeon" which probably has traps exactly like what you just described lol. That's my bad I didn't really connect the dots on what a wad like "Deathtrap Dungeon" is.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Jizzwardo
Missed an important detail

[Nefelibeta]

1 minute ago, Jizzwardo said:

In cases like your example where it's just an instant death pit with what I assume is like, disguised as a fake floor or something(?), I just don't feel like there are enough wads like that that do this to complain about it, and the wads that do this are probably designed to be troll/meme wads anyway so why get upset over something like that?

Spoiler

In fact I believe almost every people died to that red floor in Wormwood 3 map01.

 

[Jizzwardo]

2 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

  Hide contents

In fact I believe almost every people died to that red floor in Wormwood 3 map01.

 

Spoiler

Haha, maybe I am not quite experienced enough to talk about this lol, I haven't quite got around to playing that wad yet XD, maybe this sort of practice is much more common than I thought.

 

[Zulk RS]

Just now, Jizzwardo said:

Alright, that's no problem, though I still kinda stand by what I said. I feel like there aren't very many wads out there that really do this "instant death floor that's indistinguishable to anything else", or really anything close to that. The vast majority of times maps require prior knowledge it's just things like planning a strategy around a tough section or whatever. In cases like that, I feel like no matter how good you are, you still devise strategies for tough maps, and just because you had to plan out a route or strategy it doesn't mean the map was badly designed, just that it expects you to puzzle it out. 

In cases like your example where it's just an instant death pit with what I assume is like, disguised as a fake floor or something(?), I just don't feel like there are enough wads like that that do this to complain about it, and the wads that do this are probably designed to be troll/meme wads anyway so why get upset over something like that?

 

Ah I'm not complaining that there are too many wads that do this. I'm stating that doing things like this or something that you can't ever expect or react to without knowing that it's there, is bad design. I feel like you indirectly agreed with me here. I said that if a map absolutely requires foreknowledge regardless of skill, it is bad design. You mentioned that meme/troll wads to this. Most meme/troll wads are badly designed.

 

Also I too have not played wormwood. I need to go see it.

[Jizzwardo]

3 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

 

Ah I'm not complaining that there are too many wads that do this. I'm stating that doing things like this or something that you can't ever expect or react to without knowing that it's there, is bad design. I feel like you indirectly agreed with me here. I said that if a map absolutely requires foreknowledge regardless of skill, it is bad design. You mentioned that meme/troll wads to this. Most meme/troll wads are badly designed.

 

Also I too have not played wormwood. I need to go see it.

Yeah I see what you're saying a little more clearly, though honestly my definition of bad design is a bit more nuanced than that. If their intention was to troll you with that trap, then I wouldn't really regard it as bad design. To me "bad design" kind of implies a certain ignorance of the mapper, if they know what they're doing, then who are you to call their creation "bad design" when their intention was realised? And basically as I said earlier, I'd say there are loads of great challenge maps which most certainly aren't designed to be played or solved blind, but by your definition that's simply poor design. If a map's entire point is to be challenging to the best players, how are you as a mapper going to challenge them while also giving them the opportunity to beat it first try? In that case, the map is simply too easy. Though, Nine Inch Heels already pretty much said exactly this so.

[Zulk RS]

1 minute ago, Jizzwardo said:

Yeah I see what you're saying a little more clearly, though honestly my definition of bad design is a bit more nuanced than that. If their intention was to troll you with that trap, then I wouldn't really regard it as bad design. To me "bad design" kind of implies a certain ignorance of the mapper, if they know what they're doing, then who are you to call their creation "bad design" when their intention was realised? And basically as I said earlier, I'd say there are loads of great challenge maps which most certainly aren't designed to be played or solved blind, but by your definition that's simply poor design. If a map's entire point is to be challenging to the best players, how are you as a mapper going to challenge them while also giving them the opportunity to beat it first try? In that case, the map is simply too easy. Though, Nine Inch Heels already pretty much said exactly this so.

 

I think we're delving into the nature of creating a map at this point. You make an interesting point though. "Bad Design" implies that the mapper wanted to do one thing but did it badly. However if what they wanted to do was trolling the player and they succeeded, is it bad design? I guess I can't really call it "Bad design" if the whole point of the design was to be annoying right? I think in that situation, I'll say that the design is good in what it was trying to achieve but the map/encounter is bad because what it's trying to achieve is unfair difficulty.

 

Now I do believe that it is possible to make a challenging map to the best players without robbing them of all opportunity to beat it blind. Sadly I don't know what that alternative is as I myself am not a top-tier mapper. I will say though that just because something can be beaten first try doesn't make it too easy. A map can be hard while also being beatable blind.

[Murdoch]

13 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

Walking over a line and being teleported into a room full of imps that instantly claw your face off because you didn't have the BFG out while you were walking down the hall; walking down a narrow hall, walking over an invisible walk-line and having the walls open up with exploding monsters like the Serious-Sam Kamikazes but moving at the speed of Nightmare Pinkies within arms reach of you, explode you from max health and armor because you didn't move one-step at a time to trigger that walkover line and start running back; Seeing the Yellow key in a room at the end of the hall, walking towards it only to fall through a fake floor into an inescapable damaging pit... these aren't challenging. You WILL die to these when playing blind. This is bad design.

 

Precisely. It's not challenging. It's irritating. You reload/restart, and a big part of the challenge is gone (if not all of it) because you know what to expect now.

 

13 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

Most Slaughter maps, the well-designed ones at least, don't do this.

 

Exactly.

 

8 hours ago, Jizzwardo said:

Yeah I see what you're saying a little more clearly, though honestly my definition of bad design is a bit more nuanced than that.

 

It's a fair point, bad design was probably a poor choice of words on my part. I meant it as "a style of design I dislike" and not objectively bad. There are some objectively bad maps out there. I think we can pretty much all agree that if someone uploads a map that's two rooms split by an oversized door that tiles the door texture, has unpegged doortracks and is filled with 12 cyberdemons and no cover that that could be fairly called objectively bad. If someone doesn't mind having to reload to replay a trap they had no chance in hell of anticipating, that's fine.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Murdoch

[Borg]

If I could not save, I would have missed out on a shitload of great maps because of frustration. Savescum is a term used by chest puffers who either savescummed their way into mastering a map and wont admit it or sat there for hours and hours to prove a point of some kind.

 

[baja blast rd.]

1 hour ago, Borg said:

... Savescum is a term used by chest puffers who either savescummed their way into mastering a map and wont admit it or sat there for hours and hours to prove a point of some kind.

 

You have a lot mixed up here. It's also not actual good players (who are the ones "mastering maps" and grinding runs) who make fun of people who use saves -- because they use them too. The "chest puffers" who do that are people trying to be edgy in YouTube comments or whatever awful Discord servers, and similar types, and they don't really grind runs or beat difficult maps saveless.

 

It's well known and understood among people who "master maps" (as you put it) that saves -- used to break practice into small chunks -- are exactly how you do that. It's also not uncommon for good players to prepare for runs using IDDQD, and more recently, DSDA's rewind feature -- both of which are about as anti-hardcore in its aesthetics as it gets. But that's sort of the point; if "saveless vs. saves" play is something you equate to "hardcore vs. casual," that's basically a fiction, and you're probably mentally arguing with trolls who you assume are good players lol.

 

For the record, it's also pretty toxic to suggest that people who single-segment maps (and log "hours of hours" of attempts doing so) are doing it "to prove a point of some kind" and don't just, y'know, inherently enjoy it. That's equally as toxic as the YouTube commentary crowd who makes fun of people who use saves.

[KeaganDunn]

Quote

Is it even fun to play doom without saves?

 

not really

 

 

 

 

 

I quit speedrunning, playing without saves, and playing very niche stuff (ie Dimensions) on that matter.

I got burned out on Doom last year because of those things, for the next several months.

 

I admire the thought and creativity that gets put into the works of Zzul, Ribbiks, Dubzzz, NoReason, etc, and I'm often inspired by them...but I know my limits.

Edited June 10, 2022 by KeaganDunn

[Doomkid]

I always liked the idea of a "checkpoint saves" system instead, allowing the author to choose when the game auto-saves, and disallowing save states (aka Doom's vanilla behavior). Or hell, maybe even allowing timed saves, where the game auto-saves every 4 minutes or so to a second slot, in case you're stuck in one area forever.

 

I've always felt like save states were a kinda cheap way of saving, but I also felt that having 30 minutes of my time ripped away due to a stray revenant rocket was equally cheap in the other direction. I definitely prefer save states to no saves at all, though.

[Zulk RS]

7 hours ago, Murdoch said:

It's a fair point, bad design was probably a poor choice of words on my part. I meant it as "a style of design I dislike" and not objectively bad. There are some objectively bad maps out there. I think we can pretty much all agree that if someone uploads a map that's two rooms split by an oversized door that tiles the door texture, has unpegged doortracks and is filled with 12 cyberdemons and no cover that that could be fairly called objectively bad. If someone doesn't mind having to reload to replay a trap they had no chance in hell of anticipating, that's fine.

 

I think I'll take it a step further and call it "Bad gameplay"

 

Walking into a slaughter room and having the walls open up to reveal armies of monsters pour in while cybers teleport on to pillars to snipe at you with rockets is very difficult and cruel gameplay but not necessarily bad. Inescapable, invisible death pits is bad gameplay.

[Borg]

9 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

 

You have a lot mixed up here. It's also not actual good players (who are the ones "mastering maps" and grinding runs) who make fun of people who use saves -- because they use them too. The "chest puffers" who do that are people trying to be edgy in YouTube comments or whatever awful Discord servers, and similar types, and they don't really grind runs or beat difficult maps saveless.

 

It's well known and understood among people who "master maps" (as you put it) that saves -- used to break practice into small chunks -- are exactly how you do that. It's also not uncommon for good players to prepare for runs using IDDQD, and more recently, DSDA's rewind feature -- both of which are about as anti-hardcore in its aesthetics as it gets. But that's sort of the point; if "saveless vs. saves" play is something you equate to "hardcore vs. casual," that's basically a fiction, and you're probably mentally arguing with trolls who you assume are good players lol.

 

For the record, it's also pretty toxic to suggest that people who single-segment maps (and log "hours of hours" of attempts doing so) are doing it "to prove a point of some kind" and don't just, y'know, inherently enjoy it. That's equally as toxic as the YouTube commentary crowd who makes fun of people who use saves.

Fair point. I may be taking the term savescum a bit too personally being that I'm in my umpteenth attempt at clearing map 25 of Sunlust. In fact I have savescummed my way right into an impossible situation in the Cac/Revenant yard. I thereby wish to change the tone of my post from serious to tongue-in-cheek.

[BGreener]

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I always liked the idea of a "checkpoint saves" system instead, allowing the author to choose when the game auto-saves, and disallowing save states (aka Doom's vanilla behavior). Or hell, maybe even allowing timed saves, where the game auto-saves every 4 minutes or so to a second slot, in case you're stuck in one area forever.

For big honkin’ maps I started to regard key pickups as an excuse to save as a sorta self-imposed “checkpoint” system. If I get one key real early into the map I usually don’t.

 

It’s worked out more often than not, although I’ve steered towards saving right before I pick up the key with how often them bad boys get spawned when it’s grabbed..!

[DuckReconMajor]

11 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I always liked the idea of a "checkpoint saves" system instead, allowing the author to choose when the game auto-saves, and disallowing save states (aka Doom's vanilla behavior). Or hell, maybe even allowing timed saves, where the game auto-saves every 4 minutes or so to a second slot, in case you're stuck in one area forever.

 

I've always felt like save states were a kinda cheap way of saving, but I also felt that having 30 minutes of my time ripped away due to a stray revenant rocket was equally cheap in the other direction. I definitely prefer save states to no saves at all, though.

 

You probably already know this but there's a ZDoom mod that autosaves after a set amount of time, after beating strong enemies, etc

Something i've done a bit in the past is using that wad's autosaves only, not using any of my own, as my way of replicating what you're talking about here

 

edit: added link

Edited June 10, 2022 by DuckReconMajor

[The BMFG]

On 6/7/2022 at 9:45 AM, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

I genuinely consider switching to dsda-doom only because it lets me rewind time a bit. 

im pretty sure the 20th anniversary edition of duke nukem 3d would let you rewind time also but only when you died.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

8 hours ago, The BMFG said:

im pretty sure the 20th anniversary edition of duke nukem 3d would let you rewind time also but only when you died.

Yeah, it's a thing I noticed with a bunch of the retro console emulators. Like for SNES and what have you. Really neat feature

[Llednar]

I personally play every WAD two times - first time continuously and with saves, second time no save pistol-starting with demo-recording.
At first I tried to do my first playthroughs without saves too(other than a save at the very beginning of each level), but after a number of softlocks because I did something that mapper never guessed player would do, and unfair traps with zero foreshadowing (I play a lot of 1994 WADs currently, and such problems are not a rarity), I decided to save often on blind runs. It allows me to try stupid shit without worrying "Wait, what if the mapper didn't expect it and I would softlock?", It lets me easily check whether the exit is actually the exit, whether some pit is inescapable, and other stuff. I also load a save when I die in battle, but I decided not to worry about it - after all, I would still have a second no save pistol-start playthrough to redeem myself.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Llednar

[Wyrmwood]

When I first got back into Doom I was playing save less but only because that's how I played on Playstation. It only password saved, so you had to.

 

After trying some modern wads, forget that, some maps have taken me over an hour easily and the difficulty level is higher. Now I'm experimenting with timed auto-saves, challenging myself to always try my best to carry on from the save regardless of health levels or situation. I pistol start stages anyway so I don't care if I clear the stage with 2% health and a knuckle duster. 

[Spruce]

To put it simply, I'd say it offers itself as a challenge for the more dedicated Doom fans. Some, though, just find it more 'vanilla,' than what most modern ports of Doom have to offer.

[Majin]

if the level is fun & balanced i'll find myself excited when i die because i get to replay it, mastering the level & trying new things while doing so. however i think saves are necessary for my enjoyment if the map has proven to be unfair in a metric that makes death feel more like a nuisance than a risk. notable factors are maps that aren't balanced for pistol/low hp starts, long & giant maps that are really grindy, extreme linearity, plain gameplay & visuals, & over all any mean stuff like pits with no escape or cyberdemon fights with pistols only. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Majin

[BigBoy91]

I never really save. I just kinda remember what map I was on and warp to it. If it's a super challenging map, I save after each key and replay it until I don't have to. I'm not really one for D2alls.

[enigma101]

Not saving introduces a new challenge, but I only really save when I have to stop playing to do something else.

[Shanoa]

It's just something I enjoy doing and I mean on a casual level too. There's nothing more to it beyond "it's just how I play". That said, if i'm playing a lengthy map I have no problem just saving mid-level. Better that than dying a few times to the point I may end up just skipping the mapset, potentially missing out on amazing maps later on.

 

I have not read the entire thread but I'm also not surprised there's some "save vs no saving" crowd out there. Here, or outside Doomworld. Remind me of those "Easy mode for Dark Souls" thread on other forums, I just simplify it to "who cares as long as people are playing Dark Souls". Except here I'll just simplify it as "Just play DOOM, it's all that matters in the end".

Edited July 14, 2022 by Shanoa

[Solmyr]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:57 AM, Hisymak said:

So, I saw people saying they play Doom wads (on UV, blind run...) without using mid-level saves. And I am wondering, whether it is even fun to play like this?

 

On 6/7/2022 at 6:57 AM, Hisymak said:

So my question is what actually most people find so fun on playing without saves?
I can fully understand it's one form of challenge - like, we have speedrunning challenges, pacifist run challenges and such, so this is another challenge people desire to beat, and feel satisfied and possibly achieving their runs appearing on top-lists. That of course requires dedication, training, and reserving enough time for execution.

You just answered your own questions.

 

On 6/7/2022 at 6:57 AM, Hisymak said:

Especially, if it's a very hard level where it's extremely likely to die often, this method of playing is even completely impossible.
The other point, besides replaying whole level from beginning not being fun, is, that I can't even afford that due to timely restrictions. I'm an adult who has a job and irl matters, so I have pretty much limited time per day to play Doom (like 30-60 minutes max) so I want to finish at least one level per day and move on. And sometimes I even struggle repeating some hard parts 10, 20... or more times so the play time even prolongs. I can't say I'm unskilled or bad player, I finished lot of megawads including hard ones like AV, BTSX E2 etc.

So you're trying to understand why some people find saveless runs fun, but at the same time you lament that as an adult you have far less free time due to your obligations and thus you can't get to experience what's the fuzz about playing saveless runs in high difficulty settings and mapsets. 

 

Unbeknownst to you, you're also insulting people who play saveless runs by saying that, they can also be adults with their own obligations, in fact the average age of this community (well, on this forum) are people on their mid to late 20's. Some people are better at managing their time, and some others also have less obligations or more lenient jobs. But there are people who have a harcore challenge and UV only or bust fetish but they are just one of many types of players from this community ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Solmyr