How do I modify Heretic iWad to insert different (and better) weapons?

[Nikoka]

Hi. I would like to use some realm667 resources to replace the weapons present in Heretic. Since I use cheretic.nds, a DS/DSi port of the simple ms-dos version of Heretic, this is the only method I can use: directly change the iwad. 

So I would have to modify the original iWad by overwriting the old weapon sprites with the new ones (some shown below). Is this an easy thing to do for a newbie like me? Using Xwe (or other wad editor) how should I proceed?
Thank you.

 

 

[Redneckerz]

This isn't an easy thing for a newbie like you.

[Ar_e_en]

Doing it through SLADE might be a way. However - SLADE prevents you from modifying the IWAD by default, there might be a way to disable that option tho. Just make sure to keep a clean IWAD copy in case you screw it up!

Edited June 10, 2022 by Ar_e_en

[Nikoka]

16 minutes ago, Ar_e_en said:

Doing it through SLADE might be a way

Up to here, I would have gotten there too...But I mean, I don't think it's enough to just copy the new sprites inside the iWad; I suppose they have to have the same names and frame numbers for them to replace the ones already in the game or do they?

Edited June 10, 2022 by Nikoka

[Ar_e_en]

Just now, Nikoka said:

Up to here, I would have gotten there too...But I mean, I don't think it's enough to just copy the new sprites inside the iWad; I suppose they have to have the same names and frame numbers for them to be replaced in the game, or do they?
 

They have to have the same names and they have to be converted to the Heretic palette. They probably have to be in the exact same position of the IWAD as well, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

[Ar_e_en]

You should probably also test your changes in Vanilla/Chocolate Heretic as well, just to make sure that the original game works with the changes.

[Nikoka]

If I'm honest, I was hoping someone else had done this before: a vanilla Heretic-compatible weapon mod. So I'm going to try to do it myself, but I already know I'm going to get a big headache....😖

[Gez]

1 hour ago, Ar_e_en said:

SLADE prevents you from modifying the IWAD by default, there might be a way to disable that option tho.

Yes. IIRC it's called "iwad_lock" and you'll find it in the advanced settings.

 

52 minutes ago, Nikoka said:

Up to here, I would have gotten there too...But I mean, I don't think it's enough to just copy the new sprites inside the iWad; I suppose they have to have the same names and frame numbers for them to replace the ones already in the game or do they?

Just being in the proper namespace (after S_START and before S_END, since they're sprites) should be enough.

 

28 minutes ago, Nikoka said:

If I'm honest, I was hoping someone else had done this before: a vanilla Heretic-compatible weapon mod.

Keep in mind that you'll only get fancy new sprites out of the deal. The weapon behavior cannot be changed; sprites have no influence on what happens.

 

(Well, okay, they do have an influence on how fast weapon switching works. Since weapons are switched once they're fully lowered, and ready to work once they're fully raised, using weapon sprites that are vertically small will save you a few tics on weapon switching. But that's all.)

Edited June 10, 2022 by Gez

[Hitboi]

2 hours ago, Nikoka said:

So I would have to modify the original iWad by overwriting the old weapon sprites with the new ones

Yes, but also modifying the original IWAD is mostly redundant (but still works), you can put the new weapon sprites into a PWAD under the same names as the original ones and put them inside the S_START/END lumps easily without having to replace the original ones in Heretic's IWAD.
 

2 hours ago, Nikoka said:

Is this an easy thing to do for a newbie like me?

Not sure, it mostly depends on how much you know about Doom editing, obviously, but my answer will probably be no.
 

6 minutes ago, Gez said:

Well, okay, they do have an influence on how fast weapon switching works.

Wait, really? I haven't tried that but won't they make the weapon switch look seemingly shorter? I thought non-vanilla Dehacked and a few scripting languages were the only thing that can do this.

[Nikoka]

1 hour ago, Hitboi said:

you can put the new weapon sprites into a PWAD

Hmmm..... cheretic.nds supports the argv procedure, and via command line arguments, you can load a single wad and possibly the related deh file. So if loading this weapon mod as a pwad I could not use it with a custom oblige megawad, what I am most interested in. So I just have to edit the original Iwad.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Nikoka

[Ar_e_en]

If that port supports loading in extra .wad files, then modifying the IWAD might not be necessary.

As for changing Heretics weapons with .deh files - I've heard that the implementation of Heretics DeHackEd system is very limited. I could be wrong on this, but I think that Vanilla Heretic is the only "port" that supports patching via DeHackEd, no other port supports Heretics DeHackEd system, so you might not be able to change the weapons in any port via DeHackEd.

[Gez]

There's a Heretic equivalent of DeHackEd called HeHackEd but it is a lot more limited than DeHackEd in the kind of changes you can make to the exe and, as said, its patches are not supported by any Heretic port out there except Chocolate Heretic.

 

Also while DeHackEd has a modern version in the form of WhackEd, HeHacked has no such things. You'd have to run the old original one in DOSBox.

[Nikoka]

2 hours ago, Ar_e_en said:

I think that Vanilla Heretic is the only "port" that supports patching via DeHackEd....

 

2 hours ago, Gez said:

There's a Heretic equivalent of DeHackEd called HeHackEd but it is a lot more limited than DeHackEd...

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, I barely know what a .deh file is but I wouldn't know how to use it at all. Given my limited knowledge, I can only try to modify Heretic weapon sprites, overwriting the old ones with the new ones.
I am surprised that no one has done this yet in all these years....🤔

[Redneckerz]

5 hours ago, Nikoka said:

 

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, I barely know what a .deh file is but I wouldn't know how to use it at all.

 

On 6/10/2022 at 3:00 PM, Redneckerz said:

This isn't an easy thing for a newbie like you.

 

5 hours ago, Nikoka said:

I am surprised that no one has done this yet in all these years....🤔

Because it is a incredibly clumsy and time consuming experience that only would have made sense in the 90's and even then it was pretty useless because HeHacked is far more limited than DeHacked was.

 

The only product that comes close to what you want to do is Eternal Doom, which had an option to merge itself with the Doom IWAD and be its own semi-standalone game. Remember, this was before the source code was released.

 

I don't want to demoralize your intent, but this is rather a road you rather want to invent a car for than to walk the entire distance.

[Ar_e_en]

3 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Because it is a incredibly clumsy and time consuming experience that only would have made sense in the 90's and even then it was pretty useless because HeHacked is far more limited than DeHacked was.

How limiting is Heretics DeHackEd equivalent? I explored the idgames archive a few months back for Heretic and Hexen wads, and the only Heretic wad with a .hhe patch that I found only changed a few text strings (level names on the automap and one of the key pickup messages was changed). Are most .hhe patches like that or is there a Heretic .hhe patch that has more complex changes?

[Nikoka]

8 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

...it is a incredibly clumsy and time consuming experience that only would have made sense in the 90's...

It makes sense even today, for those using cheretic.nds, a simple DS port of the original, bare bones ms-dos version, not limit removing, and with no other possibility of changing its graphics. 

[Redneckerz]

10 hours ago, Ar_e_en said:

How limiting is Heretics DeHackEd equivalent? I explored the idgames archive a few months back for Heretic and Hexen wads, and the only Heretic wad with a .hhe patch that I found only changed a few text strings (level names on the automap and one of the key pickup messages was changed). Are most .hhe patches like that or is there a Heretic .hhe patch that has more complex changes?

Good thing Doom's Resident obscurologist @fraggle researched this bit for Chocolate Heretic and came up with a list.

As you can see, he covered 10 HHE patches and i'd reckon there is not much more that use it.

 

Notes:

• HereHacked is specifically built for Heretic 1.0. If you want 1.2 and 1.3 support, you will have to do that yourself.
• @Ichordid a few HHE patches, built for 1.3. In general Ichor's work is also quite sophisticated, including batch files to create a custom HereHacked-based executable and with ini parameters.
• HHE is equivalent (somewhat) to DeHacked 2.3.
• WADS that use HHE are Ichor: Blood of The Gods, Nitemare Isle, and Shadowcaster.
• Fraggle's HHE research is in this tree on GitHub.

Useless trivia:

• Hexen also had a DeHacked like editor called Hex. But even less WADS rely on that.

4 hours ago, Nikoka said:

It makes sense even today, for those using cheretic.nds, a simple DS port of the original, bare bones ms-dos version, not limit removing, and with no other possibility of changing its graphics. 

If built from original 90s code, the same limits apply, yes.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Redneckerz