What Map Format would you suggest for a beginner

[Tyler-J]

Just a quick thread to see the differences between map formats, I've had some argue that UDMF isn't always the best for a beginner but why??

[Dragonfly]

UDMF isn't the best to learn with because of the sheer overwhelming amount of additional features you have access to. I'd recommend vanilla or boom format mapping as these leave you with the essentials and a little extra, locking you into a way of learning how to make a good map opposed to how to abuse 1000's of features. 👍

[Tyler-J]

12 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

UDMF isn't the best to learn with because of the sheer overwhelming amount of additional features you have access to. I'd recommend vanilla or boom format mapping as these leave you with the essentials and a little extra, locking you into a way of learning how to make a good map opposed to how to abuse 1000's of features. 👍

 

that was very decent answer!! thank you! I personally started with udmf because both bridgeburner and chubzdoomer highly suggest it but I was looking for some different views and you make some sense. their reasoning for starting with udmf was because if you start with an older format then decide you want newer features you are shit out of luck and your wad is locked in format. it's certainly a double edged topic.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Tyler-J

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

I'd suggest the classic doom 2 format. The number of things you can do is very much limited compared to udmf but limitations are a good thing. Especially in the beginnings. The same thing applies to textures. Having less choices is great help when you're not really sure what you want to or can make. I'm making maps for a while, and the bigger texture sets still terrify me. Unless you know exactly what you want to make and you can't get it done with the vanilla linedefs, then it's worth going advanced. 

 

Also, that's not to discourage experimentation! If you make something in the vanilla format, and are curious about all the 3D floors, and line portals, and stuff, go to zdoom wiki and have at it! Teleport group? Sounds cool, I wonder what I could do with it. 

 

There's my two cents

[DoomPlayer00]

Vanilla/boom.

Humble beginnings.

[pcorf]

Boom format.

[Doomy__Doom]

Vanilla or Boom. They have enough features to get one started and learn the basics, and then build upon that foundation as desired. Note that I'm not saying one should make a massive map[set] in this format if they want to move on to advanced features.

 

When you're learning (and not just Doom mapping - any sufficiently complex tooling and flows), it's important to balance three things: theory, essential practice and doing what you want/need (need is more for work/obligation learning I guess).

 

Theory gives you understanding of bigger picture so you can make the right choices. It's a good idea to learn a little about stuff like compatibility, some features of engine and ports, capablities and limitations etc - it will let you make informed decisions about what and how you want done in the future.

 

Essentials in case of Doom mapping cover "ways to think in Doom" - it's much more important to get into the overall mindset of linedefs, sectors, floors, ceilings, doors and lifts than it is to worry about fancy slopes or mixng flats and textures because in reality those won't make your map look good by itself. It doesn't help at all when common things you want to play with and experiment a lot like assigning textures are on 2nd/3rd tabs of menus in UDB.

 

It's also important to establish discipline, which fewer features and stricter ports help with - otherwise you end up with scripting basic doors, 0-tagged actions, things stuck in a ceiling and other small errors that will break maps. Don't test beginner playground stuff on gzdoom or otherwise similar ports that try their best to fix your mistakes and make the map playable. While Choco might a a bit too much - I don't think worrying about visplanes or spechits is helpful to a beginner - imo it's better to let the port hit you in the face with errors at this stage rather than silently fix them. As a player it's ok to just want your map to run, but as someone new to the trade - you're here to learn.

 

As an example a bit sideways to map format - I first tried to merge part of texture pack into a pwad by hand for learning value. That way I got some understanding about how patches/textures/boom switches and such come together, even if I'm probably not going to ever do merges without ready-made tools ever again.

 

As to "doing what you want" - imo it's better to bump into limits as a beginner, but I'm a patient person. That's why I said "don't make a massive map" at the start - it's easy to upgrade a more basic map. You can pretty much just copypaste e.g. your small vanilla map into a new boom map if you decide that you want scrolling floors.

Of course, if you want the cool stuff UDMF lets you do and feel like it's a dealbreaker if your map doesn't include it - go ahead. I dived into MBF21 dehacked with 0 experience for my first/only map, and came out with bug reports to like 4 source ports just fine, so have my survivor bias as unshakeable proof :)

[Dexiaz]

Try to create a vanilla/boom map. After that try to create a map in UDMF. You will got an understanding about differences about formats. So it will help you to create more maps.

[Rook]

Boom - all day, every day. Avoid the need to confront vanilla limitations, and the risk of being overwhelmed by UDMF's many features. Personally all my (released) maps have been made in Boom for these reasons, but I would certainly encourage starting with it.

[Bauul]

Just to add, it's worth calling out that "vanilla" has two meanings in this context.

• The "vanilla" map format is the original map format from the Doom engine.  There are two alternatives: Hexen and UDMF.
• Targeting the "vanilla" exe means creating a map that operates within the strict limitations of the original .exe, aka runs in Chocolate Doom.  These limits are set by the engine, not by the map format.

I would echo the above comments that starting with the vanilla map format is the right approach (and I say this has a huge UDMF proponent).  It helps you understand the basics of how the game works without overloading you with the fine-tune options UDMF offers.  Then when you're feeling more confident, progress to UDMF.

 

I would not recommend targeting the vanilla exe limits though.  They add substantial additional limitations that can be hard to get your head around as a new mapper, and for basically no material gain.  More experienced mappers might target vanilla as a fun challenge, or for keeping up a tradition, but it's not conducive to learning how to map.

 

So, if you did use the vanilla map format, but didn't worry about the vanilla .exe limits, that's classed as a "Limit-Removing Map", and IMO is the best place to start.

[Somniac]

The biggest selling point of UDMF for me is I can align flats without worrying about being constrained by the grid. You can just get on with mapping instead of thinking "if I put a ceiling light here, will the texture be in the right place?", or "is this marble floor missing half a tile on the right hand side the entire length of the room going to look crap and will I have to redo the whole bit?"

 

All the advanced features are there but you're not obligated to use them just because, but they are there if you want them.

 

The problem is that you lose compatibility with the majority of ports. In fact I've gotten a bit bored of GZDoom's ultra clean hardware acceleration and prefer playing Doom on ports like Crispy at the moment.

Edited June 14, 2022 by VisionThing

[Azuris]

2 hours ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

I'd suggest the classic doom 2 format. The number of things you can do is very much limited compared to udmf but limitations are a good thing. Especially in the beginnings. The same thing applies to textures. Having less choices is great help when you're not really sure what you want to or can make. I'm making maps for a while, and the bigger texture sets still terrify me. Unless you know exactly what you want to make and you can't get it done with the vanilla linedefs, then it's worth going advanced. 

 

Also, that's not to discourage experimentation! If you make something in the vanilla format, and are curious about all the 3D floors, and line portals, and stuff, go to zdoom wiki and have at it! Teleport group? Sounds cool, I wonder what I could do with it. 

 

There's my two cents

 

I agree, only crashing against too many Visplanes will be a Thing :D

[Frost-Core]

Doom/Doom 2 formats, what i started out with, pretty normal formats

[Codename_Delta]

3 minutes ago, Frost-Core said:

Doom/Doom 2 formats, what i started out with, pretty normal formats

Ye, then go to boom.

 

But don't worry about pure vanilla compatibility for your first maps, as then it'll bog everything down.

 

Don't worry about the limits of pure vanilla doom (DOOM2.EXE, Chocolate Doom) But make sure it runs in everything else.

 

[forgettable pyromaniac]

20 minutes ago, Azuris said:

I agree, only crashing against too many Visplanes will be a Thing :D

Don't forget drawsegs, and the sprite limit, and the blockmap limit.

 

7 minutes ago, Frost-Core said:

Doom/Doom 2 formats

1 minute ago, Codename_Delta said:

Ye, then go to boom.

I'd agree with this. Use Doom/Doom2 format first, make sure it runs okay in Crispy at least (full vanilla compatibility shouldn't be a high priority).
Then try Boom, mess with some of the new features (Colormap stuff, fake sectors, ice physics, stuff like that), and make sure it works with PrBoom(+) at minimum.
If you wanna try going all out after that, you can try UDMF for maximum options.

[Quill]

I'd say Limit-removing would be the way to go. I tried making a big open map for vanilla when I was just a fledgling mapper and realized that millions of drawseg overflows are all over the place.

[IcarusOfDaggers]

I'm on the opinion that you should start with UDMF, BUT develop the first few maps in both DOOM/DOOM2/Boom format and UDMF. It helps you learn the differences, helps you learn the essentials and you will notice what is harder and needs more testing in DOOM/Boom format. (Teleports being one of the main headaches). So I map in UDMF just because it is easier for me, but I do dable in other formats, if the project allows it. 

 

Edit: to clarify: I actually find it harder to map in Doom2/Boom formats

Edited June 14, 2022 by IcarusOfDaggers

[Bauul]

1 hour ago, Azuris said:

I agree, only crashing against too many Visplanes will be a Thing :D

 

1 hour ago, forgettable pyromaniac said:

Don't forget drawsegs, and the sprite limit, and the blockmap limit.

 

As if by magic, a good demonstration of the confusion between the vanilla map format, and targeting a vanilla source port.

 

All the things are functions of targeting a vanilla source port, and nothing to do with the vanilla map format, which is what @Sneezy McGlassFace was advocating.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Bauul

[Kappes Buur]

5 hours ago, Tyler-J said:

Just a quick thread to see the differences between map formats, I've had some argue that UDMF isn't always the best for a beginner but why??

 

I would suggest that far more important than choosing between mapping formats would be to first learn the terminology of DOOM and how that fits into creating a map.

 

Other than that, it depends on one's acceptance of the features which maps for Doom: Doom2 (Doom format) and GZDoom: Doom2 (UDMF) have to offer. It is true that an editor presents many more features for UDMF map. To ease the "clutter" a modern map editor like Ultimate Doom Builder presents different icons for either format, meaning that, for example, icons for features not available for the original Doom format are not shown.

 

However, the greatest difference between mapping for Doom and GZDoom is in the way line specials are named. If one starts out with the Doom map format and then steps up to UDMF, one has to be aware of the difference of how linedef specials are named and their capabilities, although, it is possible to convert a Doom map to UDMF.

 

Since you have started out with UDMF I recommend to stick with it. Sooner or later the advanced features come in handy. :-)

 

Either way, have fun creating your maps.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by DOOM mapping enthusiast

[Walter confetti]

Vanilla format, better the one without caring of the vanilla limits (limit removing). Is simple and fun to map in that way!

[artificialBeaver]

I'm a beginner- haven't really made a map before. I was thinking I'd do Vanilla or Boom, but just a Deathmatch map, so I don't have to worry as much about interactive elements, monster spawners, etc...

[xScavengerWolfx]

Like everyone else said start with Vanilla/Boom format then work your way to UDMF. 

 

I'm still new to mapping but i'm learning UDMF format at the moment, but since i'm going from newbie to slightly mewbish i say Vanilla or Boom to get a feeling for it.  

[Tyler-J]

I do enjoy myself some good ole vanilla maps. I think my conclusion is stick with what I know now because I find it simple enough to grasp. I use Gzdoom builder rev2787 instead of ultimate not sure how much more it offers but I have soft spot for the pinkie demon splash screen lol

[Bauul]

2 hours ago, Tyler-J said:

I use Gzdoom builder rev2787 instead of ultimate not sure how much more it offers but I have soft spot for the pinkie demon splash screen lol

 

If your PC will handle it, there's little reason (other than the splash screen!) not to upgrade to UDB. GZDB hasn't been maintained for a good few years now, and is missing a huge number of improvements added since. Even aside from the new features, UDB runs faster, uses less memory, and is much less prone to crashing.

[Tyler-J]

5 minutes ago, Bauul said:

 

If your PC will handle it, there's little reason (other than the splash screen!) not to upgrade to UDB. GZDB hasn't been maintained for a good few years now, and is missing a huge number of improvements added since. Even aside from the new features, UDB runs faster, uses less memory, and is much less prone to crashing. 

 

good to know thank you. so far I haven't come across any bugs yet but will probably update soon to see for myself the improvements

[Bridgeburner56]

Every format has its own quirks, complexities and eccentricities. You can learn the core principles of level design in any of them. I'd be thinking about what kind of map you want to make and use that to determine what port/format to target. For example if stock style maps don't float your boat then I wouldn't bother with vanilla formats.  You can get distracted by the advanced features/mapping techniques in any port and "less advanced" ports come with more limitations, a lot them not the easiest to understand. Visplane overflows are the bane of many a new mapper. And I'd much rather tackle ACS scripts than voodoo doll closets or self referencing sectors (I still don't know how to use the vanilla stair action).
UDMF might have a lot of features, but it also has the most logical line actions and systematic processes. If that appeals to the way you think or sounds engaging then dive straight in. I jumped almost instantly to doom in hexen format when I started because that seemed like the most fun and at the end of the day, that's the most important thing to consider. Which format sounds the most fun. If you're having fun then you'll keep mapping.

[SiMpLeToNiUm]

16 hours ago, VisionThing said:

...In fact I've gotten a bit bored of GZDoom's ultra clean hardware acceleration and prefer playing Doom on ports like Crispy at the moment.

You do know that things can be done about this if you prefer the look and feel of the software render such as putting on light banding and running in tonemapped palette mode + turning off rendering interpolation (running at 35fps)? This is usually my preferred way to experience hardware acceleration in GZD without compromising on the retro look and feel.

As for the topic of the thread, whichever format takes your fancy the most. Each has its ups and downs, as Bridge said. We've discussed this at length in several Discord conversations, and have essentially come to the conclusion that while UDMF can be overwhelming, so can the at times confounding indirectness of vanilla or limit-removing quirks. At the end of the day, it's your own expectations that determine what port or format you target. If you're easily distracted by fancy features, maybe consider targeting limit-removing/vanilla until you run into another block there. For myself, Boom offers just enough utility to make it fun to use while allowing me to do more or less what I want. UDMF is for when I want to run hog-wild, and your expectations and aspirations have to scale with the featureset you choose; a tough lesson to learn in self-control and discipline.

Edited June 15, 2022 by SiMpLeToNiUm

[roadworx]

i'd personally say to start with limit-removing, as a.) it's simpler to learn (despite the limitations getting in the way, depending on what it is you're doing), and b.) it makes you appreciate the more modern formats so, so much more. while i personally map in vanilla, i'd recommend against it for a beginner simply because it has a ridiculous amount of limitations that may end up driving you away from mapping altogether

[jazzmaster9]

I also go by bridgeburner's method of choosing a starting format. Which one interests you the most? Which one gives you that sense of discovery and drive to keep making stuff?

I started out with Doom in Hexen Format and just rolled with it despite being told that isn't "the right way" and i should just make Boom maps and ditch all the "needless scripting and slopes" cuz Demo compat.

 

I think the real question is what do YOU want to make? and then choose the format you want based on that.

Everyone will tell you to start Boom/Limit Removing because thats whats popular here,  but at the end of the day if the tool allows you to make what you want, choose that.

Edited June 16, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[enigma101]

2 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I also go by bridgeburner's method of choosing a starting format. Which one interests you the most? Which one gives you that sense of discovery and drive to keep making stuff?

I started out with Doom in Hexen Format and just rolled with it despite being told that isn't "the right way" and i should just make Boom maps and ditch all the "needless scripting and slopes" cuz Demo compat.

 

I think the real question is what do YOU want to make? and then choose the format you want based on that.

Everyone will tell you to start Boom/Limit Removing because thats whats popular here,  but at the end of the day if the tool allows you to make what you want, choose that.

I use Doom in Hexen format because I can use it to make the type and complexity of maps I want, but I think that some people, when starting out making maps, will want the simplest option for them like Boom or limit removing so that they can learn what they've used from starting out with those formats to make more complicated maps in Hexen or UMDF format.