2 ENEMY COMMUNITY PROJECT [DEVELOPMENT THREAD]

[knifeworld]

13 minutes ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

The megawad should be finished - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_y1ScdVftPw8VEM9ETcmGB2VV-d7DXov/view?usp=sharing. So far i have simply edited the UMAPINFO to skip over the non-existant maps. I'm particularly interested in MAP18 since i have made small edits to make it beatable, but i would like to know if there are any bugs in general. 

 

I will start the single-segment playthrough tomorrow.

Thank you for helping to compile the wad!

One thing though, I've just checked the map list and I hope you had permission from @StarfishCommand to edit Map18, or that these "small edits" were fixes to genuine issues with the map that made it unbeatable or near-unbeatable, and that it's not just subjective changes.

[DoctorNuriel]

Glad to be a part of this project! Thanks, all!

[ONETAPPYBOI]

7 hours ago, knifeworld said:

Thank you for helping to compile the wad!

One thing though, I've just checked the map list and I hope you had permission from @StarfishCommand to edit Map18, or that these "small edits" were fixes to genuine issues with the map that made it unbeatable or near-unbeatable, and that it's not just subjective changes.

the exit room for some reason was disconnected from the rest of the map, so i dragged it to behind the yellow door. The only other change i did was to align the textures in the exit room because the switch near the floor REALLY bothered me.

[Noiser]

9 hours ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

The megawad should be finished - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_y1ScdVftPw8VEM9ETcmGB2VV-d7DXov/view?usp=sharing. So far i have simply edited the UMAPINFO to skip over the non-existant maps. I'm particularly interested in MAP18 since i have made small edits to make it beatable, but i would like to know if there are any bugs in general. 

 

I will start the single-segment playthrough tomorrow.

Hi! Just want to warn you that my map is still on slot 30, which will cause those issues you mentioned earlier. You or @Thatonespymain can move it to whatever position you feel more appropriate if you want.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Noiser

[ONETAPPYBOI]

i decided not to change map positions until i've played through the entire thing. i will do it later though

1 minute ago, Noiser said:

Hi! Just want to warn you that my map is still on slot 30, which will cause those issues you mentioned earlier. You or @Thatonespymain can move it to whatever position you feel more appropriate.

 

[SuperPecanMan]

18 hours ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

The megawad should be finished - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_y1ScdVftPw8VEM9ETcmGB2VV-d7DXov/view?usp=sharing. So far i have simply edited the UMAPINFO to skip over the non-existant maps. I'm particularly interested in MAP18 since i have made small edits to make it beatable, but i would like to know if there are any bugs in general. 

 

I will start the single-segment playthrough tomorrow.

 

I realize that I hadn't included a UMAPINFO entry for my MAP23 submission, although the only thing missing is the map name, which should be "Hot Dog Combo". Can you add this in?

[ONETAPPYBOI]

3 minutes ago, SuperPecanMan said:

 

I realize that I hadn't included a UMAPINFO entry for my MAP23 submission, although the only thing missing is the map name, which should be "Hot Dog Combo". Can you add this in?

yeah sure. btw i'm right now on your map and have found a cheese. you can press the switch without dropping down.

[scwiba]

I've poked around the current build a bit. A lot of maps are missing titles, though I'm not sure if that's an oversight or just because they weren't given names by their creators. There's also definitely a lot of room to shuffle maps around. In particular we need a much punchier map for the 01 slot. The one that's in that slot now is extremely long for an introductory map, as well as being a bit confusing and slow-paced. A map01 should be short and exciting, and two maps that immediately jumped out to me as good candidates were maps 47 and 59. I actually think 59 would be perfect as the first map -- it's super concise, action-packed, and has a fantastic opening vista.

[ONETAPPYBOI]

4 minutes ago, scwiba said:

I've poked around the current build a bit. A lot of maps are missing titles, though I'm not sure if that's an oversight or just because they weren't given names by their creators. There's also definitely a lot of room to shuffle maps around. In particular we need a much punchier map for the 01 slot. The one that's in that slot now is extremely long for an introductory map, as well as being a bit confusing and slow-paced. A map01 should be short and exciting, and two maps that immediately jumped out to me as good candidates were maps 47 and 59. I actually think 59 would be perfect as the first map -- it's super concise, action-packed, and has a fantastic opening vista.

the fact that the maps are missing titles is because they weren't given them originally in UMAPINFO. As for shuffling maps around, i am actually thinking about map slots as i'm playing through.

[SuperPecanMan]

26 minutes ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

yeah sure. btw i'm right now on your map and have found a cheese. you can press the switch without dropping down.

 

Well we can't have that, here's an updated version (hopefully) removing the cheese and with the UMAPINFO included.

hotdogcombo3.zip

[El Jeff]

11 hours ago, DoctorNuriel said:

Glad to be a part of this project! Thanks, all!

Thank you for participating

[ONETAPPYBOI]

Something REALLY wrong is going on in MAP36

Edited October 19, 2022 by ONETAPPYBOI

[scwiba]

7 minutes ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

Something REALLY wrong is going on in MAP36

There's a screwed up sector there but if you jiggle the lines around a little they'll merge correctly and remove it. And then linedef 1823 just needs to be assigned to sector 271 instead of 27.

[knifeworld]

2 hours ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

the fact that the maps are missing titles is because they weren't given them originally in UMAPINFO. As for shuffling maps around, i am actually thinking about map slots as i'm playing through.

Individual mappers providing their own UMAPINFO lump for titles or anything else was never mentioned in the OP.
Usually, I've seen that that lump is handled by whoever compiles the wad, either on a map-by-map basis while maps are being submitted, or after.

[ONETAPPYBOI]

4 minutes ago, knifeworld said:

Individual mappers providing their own UMAPINFO lump for titles or anything else was never mentioned in the OP.
Usually, I've seen that that lump is handled by whoever compiles the wad, either on a map-by-map basis while maps are being submitted, or after.

I'll probably go through and do it later.

[Rabbid]

Neat.

oh wait I was responding to a old post.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Rabbid

[ONETAPPYBOI]

hey @MooseFart045 have you only playtested your map in GZDoom?

[ONETAPPYBOI]

I'm done with the megawad playthrough, ended prematurely because of a softlock in MAP63. An updated version of the wad is also included, updating MAP23, fixing the weirdness in MAP36, fixing the softlock in MAP63 and fixing the wrong flat being displayed in MAP58 due too a mistake when assembling the megawad. Along with the wad there are notes included, which contains bugs/issues that i've found along with my thoughts on which slot each map should go in.  

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Tx_kTGx29RG_YSBAuahgi1RNOul0vc7m?usp=sharing

 

Edit: Forgot to include the demo; here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1styTjvXiXq-5fZH17nWBzM0ShtfgYFsO/view?usp=sharing

(play with the initial release)

Edited October 20, 2022 by ONETAPPYBOI

[Rabbid]

I'm surprised that 10-20 is early game... but considering its 1-64... it makes sense... but if it was doom normally nobody would understand what you are talking about  XD

[Rabbid]

otherwise... idk WHAT happened in map36... (I tested it on odamex and that didn't happen)

But you know this is probably because I'm not the best mapper... and plus... Idk when that happened...

Edited October 20, 2022 by Rabbid

[Emperor S P O O N]

8 hours ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

Edit: Forgot to include the demo; here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1styTjvXiXq-5fZH17nWBzM0ShtfgYFsO/view?usp=sharing

(play with the initial release)

Just watched the demo. I don't think I accounted for people to play my map from continuous, which is probably why it was pretty easy for you. Do you think it's fine the way it is, or should I make some changes making it more challenging for continuous players?

Also, If you're wondering what that weird teleporting stuff was with the cyberdemon crusher apparently its blood splatters were teleporting across the teleport line which I've never seen before until I was testing out the map myself.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Emperor S P O O N

[ONETAPPYBOI]

31 minutes ago, Emperor S P O O N said:

Just watched the demo. I don't think I accounted for people to play my map from continuous, which is probably why it was pretty easy for you. Do you think it's fine the way it is, or should I make some changes making it more challenging for continuous players?

Also, If you're wondering what that weird teleporting stuff was with the cyberdemon crusher apparently its blood splatters were teleporting across the teleport line which I've never seen before until I was testing out the map myself.

I wasn't wondering about the blood teleporting since the same thing occurs in my own map - the crushed pain elementals give off blood that teleports into the places lost souls would be teleported later.

As for the continuous, maybe you should somehow prevent the player from camping in the room with the lift, since from this room you can easily kill the revenants around the walkway, thus making the final fight much easier.

[Doomy__Doom]

13 hours ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

Along with the wad there are notes included, which contains bugs/issues that i've found along with my thoughts on which slot each map should go in.   

Sorted maps into mostly your suggestion buckets (order by current number), added short description of pair+visual theme+gameplay theme (don't eat me alive if you think I didn't get map X 100% right, that's just how I saw'em). Trying to organize thoughts on how to arrange this, idk maybe this will help.

Spoiler

1-10
01 - shot-imp, techbase, exploration, long
07 - pinky-rev, fleshy, punchy
08 - zombie-shot, heck, short
18 - shot-imp, heck cave, exploration
33 - manc-cg, techbase, very short
45 - spectre-soul, techbase, very short
49 - imp-vile, brown base, short, player-friendly combat puzzles
55 - zombie-imp, nature, exploration puzzle
56 - zombie-soul, doomcute base, exploration, very short
62 - arach-soul, techbase, very short

 

10-20
04 - chain-rev, techbase, short/punchy
09 - chain-rev, brown brick indoors, short/punchy
12 - shot-caco, marble/lava, exploration
16 - spiders, city/techbase, exploration
19 - caco-cg, wood/nature cave, crowd control
36 - HK-cg, city+heck, exploration, power fantasy
40 - manc-pe, marble/grand, s*nic movement puzzle
47 - imp-cyber, techbase, pressure exploration, short/punchy
54 - imp-manc, techbase, short
57 - zombie-pinky, outdoors techbase, power fantasy

 

20-30
03 - spectre-cyb, marble/crate, open
11 - spiderdemon-zombie, grand cave, platforming, death by 1000 cuts
17 - rev-caco, marble/lava, arena gauntlet, punchy
20 - pe-zombie, maze?, fodder slaughter, death by 1000 cuts
23 - pinky-spiderdemon, resource conservation? I honestly didn't beat this one from pistol start yet
26 - caco-vile, wood/metal, combat puzzle, arena gauntlet
39 - rev-spiderdemon, abstract? heck, resource gathering puzzle?
58 - IoS-cyb, heck, movement arena

 

30-40
05 - pain-arach, brown/toxic cave, arena gauntlet
14 - caco-imp, techbase, crowd control, combat puzzle
15 - HK-cyb, brown/toxic cave, combat puzzle, very short
22 - HK-rev, computery tech+marble, combat/conservation puzzle
30 - cyb-spiderdemon, bfg arena, short/punchy
35 - pinky-rev, abstract castle, arena gauntlet, combat puzzle
51 - cyb-vile, marble, single hard combat puzzle arena
59 - rev-cyb, outdoors techbase, combat puzzle, short/punchy

 

40+/secret???
34 - pain-vile, abstract, hard
31 - wolfSS-spectre, wolf maze, exploration, death by 1000 cuts
64 - wolfSS-cyb, wolfinspace, gauntlet
41 - wolfSS-soul, more wolf maze, exploration, resource conservation
42 - wolfSS-caco, abstract, death by 1000 cuts

Overall notes:

- I don't think "secret" maps are a sensible concept in a 42-level umapinfo wad with hodge-podge map themes. Umapinfo lets us arrange exits however we want, (re)move text screens etc.

- 4 wolfSS maps could work as a minisode (31-41-42-64?) or be spread around.

- theme-wise, I got roughly 14 techbase-adjacent, 8 marble themes, 5 caves, 6 heckish

- 8-9 maps I can describle as combat puzzles, mostly gathered in the 30-40 bucket

- "death by 1000 cuts" is basically hitscan x relatively limited health pickups, exploraton is for "my pace/chill" maps

 

I'm honestly lost as to what to do atm, since the variety is pretty epic. I feel like confining all very short maps to super early slots and hard combat-driven maps toward the end isn't the way here though, change of pace is always nice.

 

Unrelated, I've made a limited soft-randomizer (Magnolia style, via monster rng) for my map's chessboard arena just for fun, but it won't make the cut today. Want to test that it's robust a little more, but got sidetracked for hours with the above T_T

 

[Stabbey]

This is a neat idea. I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to the WADs forum recently (or Doom at all in the last several months until September), but I might give a try at making some 2-enemy maps for individual release.

[ONETAPPYBOI]

6 minutes ago, Doomy__Doom said:

Sorted maps into mostly your suggestion buckets (order by current number), added short description of pair+visual theme+gameplay theme (don't eat me alive if you think I didn't get map X 100% right, that's just how I saw'em). Trying to organize thoughts on how to arrange this, idk maybe this will help.

  Hide contents

1-10
01 - shot-imp, techbase, exploration, long
07 - pinky-rev, fleshy, punchy
08 - zombie-shot, heck, short
18 - shot-imp, heck cave, exploration
33 - manc-cg, techbase, very short
45 - spectre-soul, techbase, very short
49 - imp-vile, brown base, short, player-friendly combat puzzles
55 - zombie-imp, nature, exploration puzzle
56 - zombie-soul, doomcute base, exploration, very short
62 - arach-soul, techbase, very short

 

10-20
04 - chain-rev, techbase, short/punchy
09 - chain-rev, brown brick indoors, short/punchy
12 - shot-caco, marble/lava, exploration
16 - spiders, city/techbase, exploration
19 - caco-cg, wood/nature cave, crowd control
36 - HK-cg, city+heck, exploration, power fantasy
40 - manc-pe, marble/grand, s*nic movement puzzle
47 - imp-cyber, techbase, pressure exploration, short/punchy
54 - imp-manc, techbase, short
57 - zombie-pinky, outdoors techbase, power fantasy

 

20-30
03 - spectre-cyb, marble/crate, open
11 - spiderdemon-zombie, grand cave, platforming, death by 1000 cuts
17 - rev-caco, marble/lava, arena gauntlet, punchy
20 - pe-zombie, maze?, fodder slaughter, death by 1000 cuts
23 - pinky-spiderdemon, resource conservation? I honestly didn't beat this one from pistol start yet
26 - caco-vile, wood/metal, combat puzzle, arena gauntlet
39 - rev-spiderdemon, abstract? heck, resource gathering puzzle?
58 - IoS-cyb, heck, movement arena

 

30-40
05 - pain-arach, brown/toxic cave, arena gauntlet
14 - caco-imp, techbase, crowd control, combat puzzle
15 - HK-cyb, brown/toxic cave, combat puzzle, very short
22 - HK-rev, computery tech+marble, combat/conservation puzzle
30 - cyb-spiderdemon, bfg arena, short/punchy
35 - pinky-rev, abstract castle, arena gauntlet, combat puzzle
51 - cyb-vile, marble, single hard combat puzzle arena
59 - rev-cyb, outdoors techbase, combat puzzle, short/punchy

 

40+/secret???
34 - pain-vile, abstract, hard
31 - wolfSS-spectre, wolf maze, exploration, death by 1000 cuts
64 - wolfSS-cyb, wolfinspace, gauntlet
41 - wolfSS-soul, more wolf maze, exploration, resource conservation
42 - wolfSS-caco, abstract, death by 1000 cuts

Overall notes:

- I don't think "secret" maps are a sensible concept in a 42-level umapinfo wad with hodge-podge map themes. Umapinfo lets us arrange exits however we want, (re)move text screens etc.

- 4 wolfSS maps could work as a minisode (31-41-42-64?) or be spread around.

- theme-wise, I got roughly 14 techbase-adjacent, 8 marble themes, 5 caves, 6 heckish

- 8-9 maps I can describle as combat puzzles, mostly gathered in the 30-40 bucket

- "death by 1000 cuts" is basically hitscan x relatively limited health pickups, exploraton is for "my pace/chill" maps

 

I'm honestly lost as to what to do atm, since the variety is pretty epic. I feel like confining all very short maps to super early slots and hard combat-driven maps toward the end isn't the way here though, change of pace is always nice.

 

Unrelated, I've made a limited soft-randomizer (Magnolia style, via monster rng) for my map's chessboard arena just for fun, but it won't make the cut today. Want to test that it's robust a little more, but got sidetracked for hours with the above T_T

 

1) I sorted the maps purely on difficulty, nothing else, so there is still room for edits.

2) What i think we can do is 2-3 short/punchy maps followed by 1-2 power fantasy/long exploration based maps (so, for example, 04-49-01 - 2 maps with a lot of combat followed by more relaxed exploration) to give the player time to relax while also ramping up the difficulty.

[knifeworld]

2 hours ago, Doomy__Doom said:

Sorted maps into mostly your suggestion buckets (order by current number), added short description of pair+visual theme+gameplay theme (don't eat me alive if you think I didn't get map X 100% right, that's just how I saw'em). Trying to organize thoughts on how to arrange this, idk maybe this will help.

  Hide contents

20 - pe-zombie, maze?, fodder slaughter, death by 1000 cuts

 

Nice description, although I wouldn't exactly say it's a maze, perhaps "walled garden" or something similar?

[Emperor S P O O N]

8 hours ago, ONETAPPYBOI said:

As for the continuous, maybe you should somehow prevent the player from camping in the room with the lift, since from this room you can easily kill the revenants around the walkway, thus making the final fight much easier.

I only just got home an hour ago. I don't think I can do that in time. Well, crap... Live and learn, I guess?

[Bob9001]

Thank you for letting me make a map for this, hope everyone enjoys my map :)

 

Looking forward to seeing some demos for this megawad aswell.

[Doomy__Doom]

Ok finally got to test map 63. @MooseFart045

 

Technical:
- sky HOMs - it's done right on the left canyon path, why not elsewhere
- missing textures - lift to BSK, stairway to secret BFG
- blue room sequence uses W1 teleport back, which can softlock if taken by accident before completing the room and then back in, or if a monster takes it
- rocks protruding out of lava in the right pathway are damaging
- berserk in rightmost pillar sequence hole is very hard to pick up (and definitely not under fire). I'm assuming it's a "tested on GZDoom" moment, just like the sky HOMs.
- type 77 hanging corpses above the circle - these are movement-blocking on Prboom+
- health bonuses and medkit in the lava drift away on scrolling floor. They also end up in different places depending on source port - in Pr+ they stop at wall/rock protrusion, whereas in GZ they drift as far as the rightmost pillars.
- SSG secret is broken
- softlock in blood pit
- inconsistent damaging floor sectors in caged skeletons RSK sub-section
- random switch in right canyons that opens the exit and has a drop to BSK - old idea leftover?.. I don't see a legal way to get there
- unreachable Vile in the sector that sets up scrolling lava?

Design:
I'm going to preface this by saying I'm assuming this is intended to be a "learn by dying a lot" experience and it's not really supposed to be "maxable".

 

- The start run is RNG-frustrating - you force the player to path in reach of many viles, which creaters pure RNG failure moments. Using the gates to pause does increase consistency, but still ultimately I feel like I was graciously allowed to continue rather than got through with skill. Also, the gates kinda force you to collide with enemy in the pit immediately after. UV version felt somewhat better when I replaced blue armors with blue faces. There's little point in replenishing armor that you have no health to back up with. Removing floor viles on lower diffuculties helps for sure.
- There's 0 indication that you should drop right to progress.
- Mandatory 20 damaging floors seriously need to go. This map is already really rough on health. Especially the left-side tunnel - there's no armor in the entire 3-key section, so you can totally expect your average player to get back to start with 3 keys at 100/0 and there's no guarantee that both blue armors in the run survived the RNG.
- Speaking of health - while I'm generally in favor of "make UV as hard as you want", HMP and HNTR need help. Like, a lot of help. As it is, I would unironically recommend ITYTD for most players.
- RL existing only on HMP draws a ? from me, considering 4 boxes of rockets make up the bulk of crowd control capability in the 3-key section.
- caged AV corridor occasionally feels like RNG fiesta. I ran back and forth for a while, it's not super bad but maybe consider crushing/closing them for the way back.
- Blue tables fight again needs help at least on lower difficulties. Lower Rev count, drop Viles, add Mega/Invuln... idk, something. As is, any form of getting stuck = ded, or even not stuck but just a point blank high damage roll or two. Not to mention the Vile who can just decide to go to a far corner and zap your butt. I can get behind the idea of awkward terrain, but the deck is definitely stacked hard against the player atm.
- Outside of HNTR, I don't see the player being equipped to get the secret BFG. Need to clear too much, including stuff in *cough* 20 damaging floor *cough* for the sloooow stair climb to be viable at all.

 

Sorry it took so long, got kinda swamped with work past 2 weeks. Aight, now to think about slots again...

[Doomy__Doom]

Alright, I came up with a slotting draft:

Spoiler

04 - cg-rev, techbase, short/punchy
01 - shot-imp, techbase, exploration, long
49 - imp-vile, brown techbase, short, player-friendly combat puzzles
45 - spectre-soul, techbase, very short
55 - zombie-imp, outdoors, exploration puzzle
33 - manc-cg, techbase, very short
56 - zombie-soul, doomcute techbase, exploration, very short
08 - shot-imp, heck, short
23 - pinky-spiderdemon, brown/marble, resource conservation, crowds
12 - shot-caco, marble/lava, exploration
34 - pain-vile, metal/cave abstract, combat puzzle
40 - manc-pe, marble/grand, s*nic movement puzzle
47 - imp-cyb, techbase, pressure exploration, short/punchy
54 - imp-manc, techbase, short, exploration
14 - caco-imp, techbase, crowd control, combat puzzle
36 - HK-cg, city+heck, exploration, power fantasy
03 - spectre-cyb, marble/crate, exploration
62 - arach-soul, techbase, very short
59 - rev-cyb, outdoors techbase, combat puzzle, short/punchy
16 - arach-spiderdemon, city/techbase, exploration
41 - wolfSS-soul, more wolf maze, exploration, resource conservation
31 - wolfSS-spectre, wolf maze, exploration, death by 1000 cuts
64 - wolfSS-cyb, wolfinspace, arena gauntlet
42 - wolfSS-caco, abstract, death by 1000 cuts
07 - pinky-rev, fleshy heck, punchy
26 - caco-vile, wood/metal, combat puzzle, arena gauntlet
22 - HK-rev, computery tech+marble, combat/conservation puzzle
20 - pe-zombie, abstract garden/abandoned techbase, fodder slaughter, death by 1000 cuts
09 - cg-rev, brown brick indoors, short/punchy
51 - cyb-vile, marble, single hard combat puzzle arena
19 - caco-cg, wood/nature cave, crowd control
35 - pinky-rev, abstract castle, arena gauntlet platforming, combat puzzle
11 - spiderdemon-zombie, grand cave, platforming, death by 1000 cuts
15 - HK-cyb, brown/toxic cave, combat puzzle, very short
05 - pain-arach, brown/toxic cave, arena gauntlet
18 - shot-imp, heck cave/marble, exploration
17 - rev-caco, marble/lava, arena gauntlet, punchy
39 - rev-spiderdemon, abstract heck, resource gathering puzzle
57 - zombie-pinky, outdoors techbase, power fantasy
63 - vile-rev, heck canyon, combat puzzle
30 - cyb-spiderdemon, heck, bfg arena, short/punchy
58 - IoS-cyb, heck, movement arena

I tried to ensure map transitions make at least a modicum of sense for this one. Theme-wise, we take turns working through techbase/reality until somehow ending up in heck and finding a way out several times.
Other than SS, Revs and Imps, monsters are spread around pretty well I reckon, even Cybers and Viles are all over the place. There's a bit of a lean towards exploration in first half and combat-oriented stuff in the second half.
First 3 slots were chosen to be different in theme - a punchy opener in 04, the long exploration of 01 and light puzzles of 49.

 

I have no idea what I'm doing btw, so feel free to suggest improvements. Sorry for double post, but I figure getting this conversation going is important enough.