Is Doomworld secured for the future ?

[Endless]

Hi and sorry for the paranoid doomer (pun) way of thinking, but some doubts have been creeping in my mind and I thought to make a thread for it so I can get some clarification/confirmation about some things, either for the best of worse.

 

The Doomworld Forums are, no questions asked, the biggest Doom forums in the internet and probably among the oldest still active game forums in the entire web. There's thousands of threads and thousands of thousands of posts here. Not only that but it also hosts various other doomers sites out there, some as old as this one. In other words, there's a substantial amount of Doom history here.

 

So then my fears crept in...

 

Uncertain future?

Is there a possibility that, randomly, Doomworld could cease to exist? I don't really understand much about website/forums management (so some clarification would be appreciated it), but this post by Linguica kinda made me think that DW is on a thin line.

 

If Doomworld dies, is there any backup or a way to save all the data here? In other words, can we preserve the data in the worst case scenario? All the threads, posts, attachments, the /newstuff Chronicles, Cacowards, Top 100 WADs, hosted sites and any other file or feature.

 

On the other hand, I know that Doomworld and the /idgames archive are unrelated, DW only supplies the frontpage, so even if DW were to die, /idgames would still remain, but in a more rustic way.

 

Stagnant forever?

The absence of the majority of the staff members or no new staff is also a bit depressing, since there's no way to tell if somebody is actually doing or working something, Doomworld is pretty much without a ''head''. There's also the fact that the downloads page has been stuck since 2017, as well as the News section, and the frontpage, now that I think about. So no moving forward, and not moving forward means we'll be going backwards at some point.

 

The site hasn't seen any major upgrades/movement that isn't made by non-staff members, and while yes, the WAD and modding community is absolutely thriving, the rest of the forums aren't to proper shape compared to the years when there were efforts to move the community and showcase its works. There has been some movements to better organize the subforums, like the work Doomkid did, but, other than that, I wish I could see more proper upgrades, but then again, that's probably not possible even if there were people willing to it, due to the way the software works (or perhaps I'm wrong).

 

To make matters more depressing, lots of veteran members have left the community quietly, and their lack of presence is felt, and while this is unrelated to the software or the like, it does beg the question if the activity is actually increasing, or it has reached a point where there's a polarity of old doomers leaving while new doomers come, and we're in a flat line that's slowly descending regarding engagement.

 

I care about this community and try to give some of the love back to it, and while I understand that people getting tired of it and leaving is common, I do wonder why, despite the growth of the community on its own, there's still no new community stewards, maintainers or staff.

 

The ingredients are set for a slow decay, and we've had previous eras of inactivity before, I know, but I don't think we've ever had one where it's the main forum that's very slowly rusting away. Sure, there's Discord servers now, but a Discord is way too different from a forum, it's a fragmented piece of the community as a whole, and even the oldest Doom discord server isn't as old and massive as DW.

 

Anyway, sorry for the depressing thoughts. It has been bugging my mind for a while now, and I thought to share to see if I'm the only one, or not. Perhaps get some hopes, or just some discussion.

[Chopkinsca]

Nothing in life is certain except the end of life. If Doomworld did die, I'm sure most of us would find some new home, somehow. It would suck to lose over two decades of post content, but it wouldn't be the end of the world (well, it would be the end of Doomworld).

 

The comment about a lot of veteran members leaving. I wouldn't think too much about. Sure, it sucks to notice someone isn't around anymore, someone who's posts you enjoyed, a person you liked. For a community that has been around this long, the active members really are subject to change over time.

 

As for the number of staff/moderator members, I think it is all fine. I rarely ever see any posts that need obvious mod attention, so that shows there are enough mods to do the job.

 

Not having many updates to the site is kind of a Doomworld staple. I remember for the longest time the forums were running on some archaic version of vBulletin for reasons.

 

I'd say try not to worry about it too much. Whatever happens, happens. Doomworld is still here today, and tomorrow is another day.

 

I don't know why I felt an urge to reply. I'm usually just a member roaming the outsides. Maybe I feel thoughtful this evening, or something.

[IcarusOfDaggers]

Well, the transfer itself is only possible if not only the code, but also all the data would be hosted by another service provider. problem is, indeed, legal authority, as said in that post.

However, what @Linguica may have not realized, is that while he can NOT control the doomworlds fate in it's current hosting service, he CAN back up and archive the web page and anything related to it. However, it is such a big job, HE WILL need help.

Thing about backup data is, once the original site is gone, he can use the backup to restore the site on another web hosting service. It is a legal grey area in Europe, not sure about America. 

He can not migrate the site as long as it is alive. But when and if the site get's shut down, he can create a copy/clone of the site and keep it running, provided there are no pirated content on the map. Since most of the content here is Open Source Licenced and covered by various public use licences, they can be reused and reuploaded on a restored site. Even if he site is in new host service, as long as the old site is no longer functional, the new site is considered a restored site,  and thus can be administrated by him. 

However, this is still not foolproof and his other concerns are still very valid. 

 

Edit: As for the stagnation, that one is up to the community. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by IcarusOfDaggers

[Murdoch]

I certainly understand where you are coming from Endless. It would be nice to know there's a bit of security and also, redundancy. Who is actually paying the bills? Is there a plan in place with fallback options if they disappear to keep the lights on? That kind of thing. I would also happily contribute to a patreon or similar for running costs. But judging by what Ling said in 2018 these requests may essentially be impossible. It's not a nice predicament to be in.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Murdoch

[Endless]

26 minutes ago, Chopkinsca said:

I don't know why I felt an urge to reply. I'm usually just a member roaming the outsides. Maybe I feel thoughtful this evening, or something.

It is welcomed comment.

 

7 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

But when and if the site get's shut down, he can create a copy/clone of the site and keep it running, provided there are no pirated content on the map. Since most of the content here is Open Source Licenced and covered by various public use licences, they can be reused and reuploaded on a restored site.

That does relief the idea that there could be no way to save the data stored here. While the legal hassles are still here, at least there's something that can be done.

 

6 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

I certainly understand where you are coming from Endless. It would be nice to know there's a bit of security and also, redundancy. Who is actually paying the bills? Is there a plan in place with fallback options if they disappear to keep the lights on? That kind of thing. I would also happily contribute to a patreon or similar for running costs. But judging by what Ling said in 2018 that may essentially be impossible. It's not a nice predicament to be in.

From the comment, Ling pays the bills, but he, ironically, doesn't own the site so it's a big and weird mess.

[Murdoch]

1 minute ago, Endless said:

From the comment, Ling pays the bills, but he, ironically, doesn't own the site so it's a big and weird mess.

 

Yeah. I hope at the least there's something in place so that if he stops paying one of the other admins can.

[Endless]

1 minute ago, Murdoch said:

 

Yeah. I hope at the least there's something in place so that if he stops paying one of the other admins can.

Not wanting to being in charge of Doomworld after all these years is absolutely valid. The only issue is who could be left in charge? Which is why I raised the concerns about the inactive admins and no new ones. After all, a lot of trust would be needed for the new ''owner'' of DW. Heck, the reliability is probably more important than the money issue.

[Clippy]

Don't worry where the journey may end - enjoy the journey while you're on it 

 

🍗

[Murdoch]

2 minutes ago, Endless said:

Not wanting to being in charge of Doomworld after all these years is absolutely valid. The only issue is who could be left in charge? Which is why I raised the concerns about the inactive admins and no new ones. After all, a lot of trust would be needed for the new ''owner'' of DW. Heck, the reliability is probably more important than the money issue.

 

Kind of the same thing really. The site will become really unreliable if the bill stops getting paid!

[Biodegradable]

3 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

Yeah. I hope at the least there's something in place so that if he stops paying one of the other admins can.

 

Considering the fact Ling previous left in 2003 and handed over lead admin duties to Bloodshedder until his eventual return in 2016, should he decide to leave active duty again, he'll likely hand it over to someone else who is willing. The most likely candidate being co-founder Mordeth whose still been active in his own admin duties this entire time. 

 

I'm sure the guys have some contingency plans in mind for different circumstances. @Linguica @Mordeth feel free to drop in here and fill in the blanks for us so we stop speculating. :^P

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

8 minutes ago, Clippy said:

Don't worry where the journey may end - enjoy the journey while you're on it 

 

🍗

Your chicken drumstick is a reminder of cold reality: you can enjoy the drumstick while it lasts, but you'll want more when you're finished with it.

Edited June 28, 2022 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Murdoch]

4 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

Considering the fact Ling previous left in 2003 and handed over lead admin duties to Bloodshedder until his eventual return in 2016, should he decide to leave active duty again, he'll likely hand it over to someone else who is willing. The most likely candidate being co-founder Mordeth whose still been active in his own admin duties this entire time. 

 

That's assuming he leaves voluntarily. God forbid but what if he dies suddenly?

[Alex S.]

If Doomworld were ever that much in jeopardy, I'd host the site and database for us. Not kidding. No bullshit. We're legion, we're strong, we're family. Our community will never die. Doom will never die. Only the players die.

[maxmanium]

What legal issues exactly am I reading about here? The user-created content?

[IcarusOfDaggers]

46 minutes ago, Alex S. said:

If Doomworld were ever that much in jeopardy, I'd host the site and database for us. Not kidding. No bullshit. We're legion, we're strong, we're family. Our community will never die. Doom will never die. Only the players die.

We are the anonymous. We are legion. Expect us.

All memery aside, the slogan you made would be a great slogan for the whole doom community. 

[Murdoch]

13 minutes ago, maxmanium said:

What legal issues exactly am I reading about here? The user-created content?

 

As far as the site itself goes, the primary issue is whose name and contact info is the registrar contact on the domain. They are the legal owner of it and as of 2018 at least according to Ling it's not him nor anyone else currently on the site.

[Alex S.]

4 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

As far as the site itself goes, the primary issue is whose name and contact info is the registrar contact on the domain. They are the legal owner of it and as of 2018 at least according to Ling it's not him nor anyone else currently on the site.

None of us can tell by the whois records. It's privately registered, so all lookup data on this domain has been redacted for privacy. I can say the authoritative nameservers are at linode but that means nothing useful.

[7Mahonin]

Doomworld cannot self terminate. 

[Bauul]

2 hours ago, Endless said:

The absence of the majority of the staff members or no new staff is also a bit depressing

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "no new staff" - I know at the very least Bridgeburner and Liberation became new mods in the last year or so.  Some of the other mods might be new too.  It's not a stagnant pool of individuals.

[Murdoch]

17 minutes ago, Alex S. said:

None of us can tell by the whois records. It's privately registered, so all lookup data on this domain has been redacted for privacy. I can say the authoritative nameservers are at linode but that means nothing useful.

 

I did not look but figured it likely was.

[Endless]

17 minutes ago, Bauul said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "no new staff" - I know at the very least Bridgeburner and Liberation became new mods in the last year or so.  Some of the other mods might be new too.  It's not a stagnant pool of individuals.

Referring to the admins section.

[Wavy]

1 hour ago, Alex S. said:

Only the players die.

Unless you use iddqd ;)

 

Anywho, I'd suggest not think about the death of the forum too deeply as it tends to woresen your fears. I'd only be fearful if one of the moderators or admins come out and tell us something of concern, but as that hasn't happened yet, it's safe to assume we're safe.

 

Just know that Doomworld and everyone will still be here for the time to come.

[Decay]

If Doomworld dies, at the very least a lot of people will suddenly have a lot of time to be productive.

[TheFocus]

don't worry man. if the last 30 years have taught us anything, it's that no matter what, Doom will survive. no matter what form it's in, the playerbase, it doesn't matter.

Doomworld is eternal.

[Immorpher]

It seems so far the Doom communities have fared better than the Quake ones; the Doom admins seem on average to last longer. But that can always change quickly

So many online places for Quake have collapsed or are barely limping along. This is because the people who own it are no longer interested in Quake and are unwilling to pass it on to someone who has the passion to put the work in. The community is lucky that Spirit keeps Quaddicted alive and well, and then there's also Dumptruck who built the Quake Mapping Discord and passed it on when he felt the time was right. But it is left without an active forum that is well organized and easily searchable.

[Endless]

15 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

It seems so far the Doom communities have fared better than the Quake ones; the Doom admins seem on average to last longer. But that can always change quickly

So many online places for Quake have collapsed or are barely limping along. This is because the people who own it are no longer interested in Quake and are unwilling to pass it on to someone who has the passion to put the work in. The community is lucky that Spirit keeps Quaddicted alive and well, and then there's also Dumptruck who built the Quake Mapping Discord and passed it on when he felt the time was right. But it is left without an active forum that is well organized and easily searchable.

Ironic that Quake has a proper modern downloads repository, but lacks the forums, while Doom has the forums but lacks a functioning modern download page.

 

And yeah, Doom is among the most active and one the few retro communities that have managed to stay relevant after decades, which is why I worry about an unexpected loss, considering the circumstances.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Endless

[Murdoch]

16 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

So many online places for Quake have collapsed or are barely limping along.

 

Funnily enough, the mention of Telefragged.com in Ling's post made me think "huh, they still exist?" I googled it and found a site hosted on quake2.com with a redirect to a sub domain site that no longer exists on Telefragged.com. The main Quake2.com has a news update declaring the site maintainer is going away for a weekend roadtrip... nearly 24 years ago. That's one HELL of a weekend roadtrip. So someone has been paying for a domain and hosting for the site that as far as I can tell has not been updated in nearly a quarter century.

[Doomkid]

DW has a Patreon, Ling just rarely advertises it - https://www.patreon.com/doomworld/

 

(Just mentioning it since it's relevant)

[Unregistered User]

So we don't know who owns the domain, our leader? Some QAnon shit lol

[Murdoch]

18 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

DW has a Patreon, Ling just rarely advertises it - https://www.patreon.com/doomworld/

 

(Just mentioning it since it's relevant)

 

Thank you, signing up now.

 

Good to see Ling keeps patrons up to date with the important behind the scenes info.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Murdoch