In search of the "perfect" map

[K_Doom]

 Today I want to raise a discussion and reflection on what would be a perfect map.

 

Implying that it's actually possible to create a perfect map, what would it be like?

Here I'm just talking about the "default" map type. The usual type, Doom, kill monsters, try to survive and find the keys to the end. The usual, no RPG types, Metroidvania or other things very different from normal Doom maps.

 Well, after many years of Doom's existence and thousands of megawads spread over the internet, what I can observe from all this is the "relativity of quality". You know, there are a lot of wads, but why are some considered so good while others are just the hidden work of a fan?

I believe that by convention it is time to admit a standard of quality for maps, not that this should be set in stone, but that a consensus on this issue might be useful.

When I look at an old map from Doom 2 etc, I see a clear difference in architecture compared to newer maps like Evernity, but I don't limit the quality of a map to architecture, at least in my opinion it's much wider as it's easy highlight the beautiful details, decorations and textures.
In fact most of the works are like this, very beautiful maps, but is this all a good map?

 

 Design is important and makes the game interesting at first glance, but I consider other aspects to be important as well;

 

Challenge: Instead of adding tons of monsters all the time, I find it more effective and interesting to place enemies in the right places on the map. It also makes no sense to put them in unfavorable places, an example I can give is to put a monster on a narrow pillar. If the monster is not in "fast monster" mode, it will crash into the corners of the platform like an idiot and do nothing. This is a common practice I see, but it doesn't make sense to me. It needs to create a context for it to work well with the basic monster AI. You can't forget to pack enough ammo and weapons, but I believe they shouldn't be given so generously all the time, it greatly influences the experience. This may seem obvious but I already forgot haha
Teleport traps after picking up a key is an interesting custom, but it shouldn't be used all the time, it's predictable. Walls that suddenly go up, monsters that appear in all directions, etc can all be predictable if used often, so new ways to diversify are a must.
Not infrequently I see people complaining about hitscanners, but they are also crucial elements of the challenge. Monsters that shoot projectiles can be easily tricked, but hitscanners always increase the difficulty, as their attack is instantaneous. Even those who like BFG spam can't get away with taking some damage. But of course, never overdo it.

 

Design: architecture is very important, it is literally the most eye-catching at first glance and the most improved thing ever. I like architectures that make "sense", I mean when you make a map with a hellish theme it can be abstract, because hell is abstract. But maps like "Central Control Center", "Headquarters", there must be a sense in the architecture. It has to look like what the name says, a Military Base and stuff like that, not just nonsense, a pretext to place monsters and hide keys. Doom can be more than that. In the 90's this was acceptable because it was all new, but today I find it more interesting that way.
Research what these structures look like and replicate them at least partially, that's what I think.
As for texturing, I like to establish patterns, it works to mix several on the same map between sectors, but I noticed that it gets a little confusing. Ultimately, this is a matter of taste (like everything else here, probably).

 

Music: Often the music itself was more memorable than the game for me, but sometimes it can be hard to find a good "Doom-style" music for the atmosphere it created. So it can be fun to venture out to create your own music. This has a lot of weight on the experience.

 

 Okay, I think I managed to sum it up, at least I can't think of anything else right now. Everything else doesn't seem so objective...

It's happened that I open UDB to start a new project and spend more time looking at the checkered black screen than actually doing something, maybe you've already done that. Even after planning everything, things don't look like they were imagined. Because it is easier to theorize “perfection” than to actually put it into practice, so I need your help in this reflection. There are many aspects to this that wouldn't fit into a single topic, such as what situations monsters behave best in, or even color psychology, 'ominous' textures, which can influence the experience,
etc.
 

 Finally, what elements make a perfect map ?

[Thelokk]

JPCP map03. Look no further. 

[Nefelibeta]

To be honest almost all of those are subjective.

Challenge: It makes sense not a lot of people like frantic sluaghterfests, but you ignored mapsets like stardate20x7 and magnolia. Most of the maps don't really spam monsters at you, and they have extremely effective monster usages. Well effective indeed because most people are going to suffer in maps that have less than 300 monsters, a lot, making the experience painful instead of challenging. However there are people who are good enough in this game to play the maps casually as if they weren't anything.

Design: Completely subjective, you mentioned that you like the maps when the visuals make sense but there are a lot of people who dig abstract, grandiose visual designs.

Music: Most people would like midis that fit the map itself, though I did realize how different people have different opinions on them. Some like progressive rock, some like game OSTs, you'll never know.

 

Long story short, there isn't a perfect map for everybody just like there isn't a perfect song, painting etc.

 

23 minutes ago, K_Doom said:

 Okay, I think I managed to sum it up, at least I can't think of anything else right now. Everything else doesn't seem so objective...

It's happened that I open UDB to start a new project and spend more time looking at the checkered black screen than actually doing something, maybe you've already done that. Even after planning everything, things don't look like they were imagined. Because it is easier to theorize “perfection” than to actually put it into practice, so I need your help in this reflection. There are many aspects to this that wouldn't fit into a single topic, such as what situations monsters behave best in, or even color psychology, 'ominous' textures, which can influence the experience,
etc.

Well it's more like theorizing what you think will be cool than actual "perfection"

It's impossible to make things exactly the same as you thought it would be, like creating a fight for example. Most of the time you're going to forget something like monster speed, AI and stuff. You'll just have to experiment the choose what's the best for you.

It's funny because it's like painting, what you drew in the end is never going to be 100% same as the one you have in your mind.

[K_Doom]

46 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

JPCP map03. Look no further. 

This made me curious lol

[Murdoch]

No such thing. Completely impossible. Different people like different things. Different maps do different things.

[K_Doom]

45 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

To be honest almost all of those are subjective.

Challenge: It makes sense not a lot of people like frantic sluaghterfests, but you ignored mapsets like stardate20x7 and magnolia. Most of the maps don't really spam monsters at you, and they have extremely effective monster usages. Well effective indeed because most people are going to suffer in maps that have less than 300 monsters, a lot, making the experience painful instead of challenging. However there are people who are good enough in this game to play the maps casually as if they weren't anything.

Design: Completely subjective, you mentioned that you like the maps when the visuals make sense but there are a lot of people who dig abstract, grandiose visual designs.

Music: Most people would like midis that fit the map itself, though I did realize how different people have different opinions on them. Some like progressive rock, some like game OSTs, you'll never know.

 

Long story short, there isn't a perfect map for everybody just like there isn't a perfect song, painting etc.

 

Well it's more like theorizing what you think will be cool than actual "perfection"

It's impossible to make things exactly the same as you thought it would be, like creating a fight for example. Most of the time you're going to forget something like monster speed, AI and stuff. You'll just have to experiment the choose what's the best for you.

It's funny because it's like painting, what you drew in the end is never going to be 100% same as the one you have in your mind.

Yes, of course it's relative, I thought I made that clear. But everything good has a reason for being, it's not so relative. For example, there are several movies and games, but they all have something in common to be good, and thus the same formula is massified. In the midst of so much relativity, there is something objective to be good. Plus, I wanted to know what you think about it.

[PeterMoro]

E1M7 comes pretty close IMO

[Majin]

i think there is a possible perfect level for each individual but that would be essentially impossible as everyone has an insurmountable pile of different nuances that would turn a level into something to reach the standard of "perfect". i am currently thinking of my perfect level but that is just an incoherent non-euclidean mess of structures and scenarios. we ourselves are incapable of listing the perfect level as most of what we like is in our subconscious. 

 

i can say i like big rooms, but i've had big rooms i've hated before. in this alone, there are a billion different factors that are behind this & while i may make it more specific by adding onto that list, the actual list is probably miles longer & incomprehensibly detailed

 

 

2 hours ago, Nefelibeta said:

Well it's more like theorizing what you think will be cool than actual "perfection"

It's impossible to make things exactly the same as you thought it would be, like creating a fight for example. Most of the time you're going to forget something like monster speed, AI and stuff. You'll just have to experiment the choose what's the best for you.

 It's funny because it's like painting, what you drew in the end is never going to be 100% same as the one you have in your mind.

 

i find this to be very true, you're doomed for disappointment with the expectation of translating your abstract, clouded, formless concepts into reality.  your vision for a level no matter how planned it may be will probably be unrecognizable by the end. executing an idea into reality sounds nice until you're met with a million nuances that you didn't account for--both big & small.

 

you have to let go with the idea of perfectionism; even ideas themselves to a degree. you're best off making levels with the objective of fulfilling a theme, such as a factory, hell, castle or a cave-- then executing a continuous string of small, tiny ideas that will eventually amalgamate into a big, enjoyable level. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Majin

[maxmanium]

The perfect map to me, at least in terms of atmosphere, is Scythe 2 MAP24.

[out_of_service]

E1M3 & E1M7 are perfect maps to me.

[El Juancho]

Of the maps I have played the closest to perfection was toxic touch from Alien Vendetta (Map10)

[Faceman2000]

A lot of people have typed a lot of words but having only read the thread title I can assure you it’s Map 21 Nirvana.

[baja blast rd.]

Give me the emotional immersion of Lost Civilization or Jumpwad, just a place that I could hang about in for many minutes without feeling like I need to "play" anything or make progress really. 

 

The clever concept design of "Transcendence" (Eviternity m26), "Acheron's Needle" (Syringe m06), Saturnine Chapel, Going Down, Culture Shock (Ancient Aliens m24) -- where the map's theme and setting feels like something you'd need a paragraph or more to describe, instead of just "hell palace" or something, and even that would be leaving out lots of info.

 

The architectural awe and craftmanship of a Mechadon map -- which has a sort of the thing that just makes me want to pick it apart and study and grok how it's done because wow I can't comprehend this. 

 

It'd be a big map so there'd also be quite a lot of local-level thematic and aesthetic variety, even though everything would make sense cohesively. It would not all look similar.

The charm and cleverneess of something Nanka Kurashiki (on the bright side) or Tarnsman (on the memey side) would make. 

 

Well implemented difficulty settings that are like HNTR (Valiant or Ozonia on UV in difficulty), HMP (mid-late Speed of Doom up to Sunlust difficulty), UV (Fractured Worlds and Abandon), with, even more importantly, encounters and designs that are as nuanced, fun, enjoyable, and strong in gamefeel as those wads often are. 

 

If it's linear, it'd have a powerful emotional and experiential arc, where later parts of the map build on what came before, like someone telling you a story with strong callbacks, bits of misdirection, twists, climaxes, and all that. 

 

If it's non-linear, it'd feel like there was 7+ mutually distinct ways of playing it (and I don't mean routes that all end up feeling interchangeable, but like Tyson-evasion-pacifist and "go risky early for the BFG" and "standard escalation" and "cool skip path" and "this way is more SG-RL heavy" and "this way is more CG-PR heavy"; some routes might be more Plutonia-ish minimalist combat, some might be heavier on slaughter). 

 

If it were non-linear, it would also let me exit along some routes at around 20-30% kills, so that I could play it as many different "smaller maps," each great in their own way, or as one long map, depending on what I felt like that day. 

 

Fight design would be often more standard-neutral, like just "good fights," but a lot of encounters would often be heavy in gimmicks and "big ideas" -- some old classics done really well, some of which I haven't seen anywhere else. Plenty of areas would not have much fighting at all. 

 

Essel and Cage would do many custom textures for it to fit alongside the well chosen curated set of assets it uses (I'm not totally set on any given asset set tbh). Essel would also make an OST that is all-saxophone but is still somehow an all-time great MIDI.

 

Both aesthetically and in terms of gameplay, you'd feel like so many areas have a ridiculous amount of layers of design to them, little nuances that you'd still be finding in your 20th playthrough. It would not feel "speed-designed." 

 

It would also have, just as importantly, a lot that I can't properly anticipate because it's very new or kind of new. I don't mean custom content, but design approach, exact theme, a lot of the individual "moves" it does. A lot in it would innovate. If I wanted to play the same things over and over, I can already do that -- I like replaying wads -- so I most appreciate it when new wads I haven't played do things I haven't seen before. 

 

It would do some "modern Doom design dogma" stuff, but also a lot that simply is outside of that way of being. Kind of like Lost Civilization, or nu-Ribbiks, or the way that lupinx-Kassman's "fidelity"-adding detailing might be standard modernity but his actual designs are outsider-art / old-school in many ways too.  

 

I'd probably want this to be a mapset instead tbh, which could do the above, and also more -- like using structure and composition of mapset in novel ways. There's so many cool ways you can build on levels with other levels, over the course of a megawad, that people haven't really tried. But a standalone map like the one I described could be a top-3 favorite release of mine!
 

[K_Doom]

3 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

A lot of people have typed a lot of words but having only read the thread title I can assure you it’s Map 21 Nirvana.

This is definitely a map that I consider just "weird" lol

[Jayextee]

E4M2, it's even in the name. :P

[TheFocus]

BTSX 2 Map 20 "Speedtraps For The Bee Kingdom" might be my choice. it's not my favorite from the WAD, but something about it sticks out to me. it's massive, filled with really cool details, has very smart enemy encounters; not to mention the insane scenery throughout the whole level. the only thing that kind of drags it down a little is the music. BTSX 2 has the best soundtrack of any game i've ever played, and this level happens to have the only song i'm not incredibly fond of.

 

[DuckReconMajor]

What will you do when you find the perfect map? Stop playing maps? Only play that map for all eternity?

 

16 hours ago, K_Doom said:

But everything good has a reason for being, it's not so relative. For example, there are several movies and games, but they all have something in common to be good, and thus the same formula is massified.

I know the above reply sounds like i'm being a smartass  but this is legit what it feels like, that you believe there is a standard everyone is chasing, and once we get there all art will have to be carbon copies of that thing, as it is 'perfect'

 

A lot of people, when reminded that all taste is subjective, retort by saying "yeah but it's common sense, you have to admit [thing most people like/respect] is better than [thing most people don't like/respect]"

You can chase trends or you can try to take risks and break all the rules. Neither is right or wrong, and most go for a mix of both.

 

There could be a time where a piece of art perfectly aligns with the tastes of everyone and is considered 'perfect'. However, unless the human desire for novelty works its way out of our DNA someday this won't be regarded as 'perfect' forever.

Edited July 14, 2022 by DuckReconMajor

[bofu]

"Try to catch two hares, and you'll catch neither of them."

 

Tastes are varied. For instance, I'm not the biggest fan of maps where it's just constant slaughter fights, but I also like having some slaughter-y arena carnage with more traditional firefights interspersed between to keep things flowing, with enough exploration where the player can check out areas off the beaten path but not so much that layout becomes confusing. But I know that there are people who want near-constant carnage: kill a massive wave of enemies, flip a switch, kill another massive wave of enemies, flip another switch or trigger another linedef, rinse and repeat until the end.

 

Some people like their slaughter fights long and drawn out. Some people prefer them to be short but high-intensity. Some people like maps that go on for hours. Some people prefer maps that can be 100% cleared in under ten minutes. Some people want high-end details with loads of custom textures and fancy strobe lighting effects. Some people want old school visuals.

 

There's no such thing as perfection. Hell, for every Cacoward winner, there's going to be someone in the comments section that doesn't like it, and there are a few widely-acclaimed WADs that I can safely say are not my thing. A "perfect" wad would have to appeal to everybody's tastes, but considering how contradictory people's tastes can be in the Doom community, that's downright impossible.

[CittyKat112]

Dimensions MAP03 and POOGERS MAP31.

Spoiler

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

[K_Doom]

2 hours ago, DuckReconMajor said:

What will you do when you find the perfect map? Stop playing maps? Only play that map for all eternity?

 

I know the above reply sounds like i'm being a smartass  but this is legit what it feels like, that you believe there is a standard everyone is chasing, and once we get there all art will have to be carbon copies of that thing, as it is 'perfect'

 

A lot of people, when reminded that all taste is subjective, retort by saying "yeah but it's common sense, you have to admit [thing most people like/respect] is better than [thing most people don't like/respect]"

You can chase trends or you can try to take risks and break all the rules. Neither is right or wrong, and most go for a mix of both.

 

There could be a time where a piece of art perfectly aligns with the tastes of everyone and is considered 'perfect'. However, unless the human desire for novelty works its way out of our DNA someday this won't be regarded as 'perfect' forever.

 

Well if I found the perfect map, found the X formula for creating maps, I would apply the concepts of perfection that my eyes glimpsed.

At the same time that I am aware that nothing is really "perfect" I also feel interested in this ideological quest, and so I always seek to improve the quality and experience of my works.

 

I think of it as art movements; cubism, realism, surrealism, etc.

There are slaughter maps, joke maps, puzzle maps, "Default Doom", and many others.

 

I like "standard Doom" maps best with some slaughter elements, and I will focus my perfectionism on design and challenge. You said that nothing is perfect forever, but when it comes to art some are forever, like Mona Lisa. She is perfect.

[sandwedge]

I mean, the Old Bean Factory by kwc already exists

[DuckReconMajor]

Yeah I don't think you're being unreasonable or anything, but I think opening your perspective a bit from being focused on what's "perfect" can lead to creating something brand new that people find valuable.

Also I'm sure you already heard about the Mona Lisa not getting the status it has now until it was stolen which got worldwide media attention.

 

Anyway, since a lot of the thread is talking about our own perfect theoretical wad I think it would be something like Cyberdreams, taking the intimate one-on-one challenge scenarios and maybe pairing it with some well crafted custom monsters

[YoshizinGordin]

In My Humble Opinion, Wow.wad Is "The Perfect Map".

 

It Has Everything I Look For In A Wad, Such as, Simplicity, Linearity And A Clear Objective. thx.

[Solmyr]

So you want a map that catters to what you consider a gold standard of mapping?

 

I would recommend any map from Going Down and Hellbound for their aesthetics and in the case of the former it's memorable soundtrack, their maps resemble the location that are suppoused to be, but their monster use strays away from what you're looking for.

 

Map 11 "Hunted" from Plutonia would also be a good pick but only in the "good use of monsters" aspect, in terms of level design it just looks like a brown moldy maze that used to be flooded, and it's music is memorable but we all associate it with Daisy's impaled head from Doom 1 ending.

 

Map 05 "Lockdown" from Doom 2 Reloaded comes close to what you want to see as a base line for a "perfect" map.

 

Since you never tehcnically specified it has to be a Doom map, and a good opener always leads to good expectations about what's to come, then E1M1 "The Docks" from Heretic might also be a good pick, memorable music, it resembles what's suppoused to be, proper monster use, no teleport ambushes and nice architecture. Just pretend that it's Doom and those monsters are its equivalents, and imagine some hitscanner here and there.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Solmyr

[SuyaSSS]

Nothing can be perfect no matter how hard you try.

 

A map that may seem perfect to one person may be flawed to the other. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on what makes something "perfect" and everyone will have a different opinion on that. Some people like easier maps while some like Slaughter. The definition of perfection is different for every other person. 

[MFG38]

Perfection is a myth.

[mrthejoshmon]

You will never find your perfect map, it is up to you to create it

 

Get mapping.

[fbjim]

it was already determined that E2M2 Containment Area was the perfect map, and the only way to make an even perfecterer map would be for it to have more crate mazes

[Pixel Fiend]

The best maps for me would be the most atmospheric ones that create good memories and don't outstay their welcome. For example Sunlust MAP18 or Eviternity MAP26.

[LadyMistDragon]

Disturbia probably comes the closest. The problem with this question is that while there are a number of maps that hit a certain sweet spot when it comes to combat, there's some indescribable 'flow' that sort of ruins the idea of the perfect map. Culture shock may be beautiful, but Elysium from Eviternity is probably a much better map. It's very easy to pick apart many other beloved maps and say for instance that Wormhole Junction lays on monsters a little thick or that "Creation" from Eviternity doesn't quite hit that sweet spot despite being as close to pure fun as I can imagine. There are a number of elements that go into making a 'perfect' map that ususally involve a certain combination of music and combat/progression flow with an intriguing environment that aren't all equally present. I love The Last Sanctuary for instance, but I know it's that sort of map that tends to polarize audiences so that means there's something not quite perfect about it. It's possible I could name a map that's perfect if I replayed a pwad or two, but it would probably not be anything before 2003 or so, mainly because certain AV maps are a little bit too long in the tooth (except Toxic Touch, that actually comes fairly close, but maybe it's a little lacking in action? idk)