How Worthy Are The SS Troopers Of Being A Regular Enemy In Doom?

[DSC]

Making this thread because, obvious thematic dissonance aside, I was wondering if mechanically the SS Trooper would fit well in the enemy roster. I've heard things about being a nice middle-ground between shotgunners and chaingunners, but unfortunately I haven't had enough experience with them before "unfortunately I didn't have experiences with nazis" I just hope no one takes this comment out of context somewhere just to screw with me , and so I'm not too familiar with the way they work. I do have some vague memories of then indeed working like a slightly less annoying chaingunner, but don't know to what extent they would diversify the roster. And again another unfortunate thing, I'm not the best when its about mapping and enemy placement theory, so I can't contribute much more myself sadly. To the Doom mapping experts, how well would they do?

 

[Stupid Bunny]

15 minutes ago, DSC said:

I just hope no one takes this comment out of context somewhere just to screw with me

 

15 minutes ago, DSC said:

the SS...nice...nazis...ar...e...the best...[re]placement theory

 

Wow you heard it here guys, not cool DSC

 

Anyway I enjoy periodically making a map to play around with the WolfSS, just to break up the thematic monotony a bit, experiment with an enemy I rarely get to use and to have a larf (whey can't maps be a bit silly every once in a while?), but in practice I'm not sure how necessary they are in the roster.  I suppose their lower health count and slower firing rate mean that you can add more of them in lieu of fewer chaingunners, and I guess they can make for a shooting gallery that places less pressure than chaingunners do while still requiring the player to keep moving, but I think their niche is narrower than some people imply.  Part of this is also that shotgunners and even zombiemen in sufficient numbers are better pressure enemies than folks think.  Still, they could have their place, and it's mostly the distracting idiosyncrasy of suddenly having tiny blue Nazis in your hell map that keeps people from using them much.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Stupid Bunny

[MFG38]

Give them a different look (possibly that of a zombified marine) and they'll work decently.

 

Then again, another hitscanning enemy is the last thing Doom needs, if I'm being honest.

[baja blast rd.]

They are fine, but don't fill that much of a niche, being just another hitscanner in the usual HP range. If you want a slightly weaker chaingunner, then placement and architecture does that fine with regular chaingunners. One mapping move with placement is putting them in groups that have other monsters acting as potential mobile cover (like an imp or pinky). One with architecture is deliberately limiting how much of a space they can target. See Violence (by AD_79) for good examples of this, a run 'n' gun style wad that often has little-cover chaingunners, which might sound like a big contradiction but it uses both of those methods to avoid chaingunners being abrasive.  

 

SS Nazis are more between a zombieman and shotgunner in threat level*, rather than between a shotgunner and chaingunner. While having more HP** and theoretically way more sustained DPS than a shotgunner, neither of those matter as much in real play. The shotgunner has it way outclassed in tail risk: the potential for one to do 30+ damage in one shot, or for a group to take you out even if you're relatively healthy. With a group of SSes you just duck into cover or get them infighting against each other, and maybe they do their reliable ~20-40 damage, but there's way less a risk of them pretty much taking you out. 

 

You could do interesting thematic things with reskins of them, but a fragile plasma zombie also does that too, while adding new behavior in the process.

  

 

*Between them, but a lot closer to a shotgunner because zombiemen are so low-threat. A zombieman is closer to a gray tree in danger than to a shotgunner.

**Chaingunners would be a lot less dangerous than they are with 50 HP, and that is with a much stronger attack than Nazis. Their magical ability (with 70 HP) is that you can't "off switch" them as easily as shotgunners by just shooting at them, so then they keep blasting you. They survive a SG blast sometimes, and one eats up enough of your time with the chaingun to make others in the area dangerous. They don't get cluster-killed by SSG trivially enough. 70 HP seems like an important inflection point for their danger. Meanwhile shotgunner with even 10 HP would still feel reasonably dangerous (>half regular shotgunner danger) because it does its damage in a burst. So straight-up HP comparisons don't really always work.

[Shepardus]

Jamal Jones reskins the SS to make it fit with the rest of its enemy roster, in case you wanted an example of someone doing just that.

[7Mahonin]

I feel they are really nothing more than an Easter egg character. They aren’t even as threatening as the Wolf 3d version of this same character, and their art doesn’t match well with Doom’s art. 

[YoshizinGordin]

An Enemy That Needs To Be "Given A New Look" To Look Natural Doesn't Deserve To Be On The Average WAD's Enemy Roster, methinks.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

Mechanically pretty good, I think. Not as deadly as chaingunners but still pack a punch. Also, they drop a clip, not a whole gun, which can be (ab)used in map progression to starve the player.

[PsychEyeball]

I don't like the enemy at all, whether it's mechanically or artistically. The monster just awkwardly sits amidst the enemy roster without a real function or purpose that sets it apart from the bestiary; they're not threatening enough to be a priority and yet their HP total would make it hard for you to get them out of the way fast to make way for other foes. Hitscanners for me are Doom's greatest weakness in the enemy set and the game doesn't need another one, especially one as unremarkable as he is. I genuinely would prefer to fight 30 zombiemen at once over 15 SS officers.

[Maribo]

I agree with pretty much all of rd's points, but here's a "fun" view rather than an analytical one: they give me a light chuckle when they're an enemy guarding a secret. It pairs well to put the silly out of place monster with the area(s) that give you bonus stuff, and that you aren't usually expected to find. 10X10 Project by lunchlunch has a lot (maybe all?) of secrets like this.

[Doomkid]

I like hitscan enemies that are rapidfire, weaker than shotgunners, stronger than zombiemen, and don't drop a shotgun or chaingun, so I find uses for them constantly throughout my wadography. Although I always give them an altered doomguy/zombieman-like appearance. I don't think Doom "needs" them, but I think they (accidentally) hit a sweet spot with how they function that makes them comfortable to use when mapping.

[bofu]

Can the Wolfenstein SS attack patterns be used effectively as an enemy? Certainly. It's not the most worthless enemy out there. It sits pretty comfortably between the regular zombieman and the chaingunners. My main issue with it is that it's a human enemy holding a weapon that attacks using a weapon that would be useful to the player's arsenal (it would be a straight upgrade to the pistol, whereas the chaingun tends to waste a little bit of ammo) but it doesn't actually drop anything besides a clip, as opposed to the sergeant and chaingunner. While there are definitely uses for that if you don't want to give the player a chaingun, honestly, they're so bullet spongy that if you don't have a chaingun or shotgun when you go up against them in the first place, fighting more than one of them just feels like a chore.

 

(As an aside, I'm reskinning the Wolfenstein SS to be a super shotgun zombie via DEHEXTRA in my otherwise mostly vanilla wad, as I wanted something a bit more threatening than a shotgunner up close but not as annoying at long ranges as a chaingunner.)

[Naarok0fkor]

The SS is not a good idea especially considering the limited action it gets involved in the IWAD, good mechanics though. I replaced it with the zombie, replaced the zombie with a pistolzombie. Works much better in homemade maps. It should have been kept in Wolf3D...like the candelabra. I always thought that a game with limited space like Doom & Doom2 should have done away with a lot of junk to keep to the essential: high-tech+hellish textures, flats & things...not too many gibs...

Edited July 21, 2022 by Naarok0fkor

[SteelPH]

They're worthy of only being replaced in Dehacked patches.

[sandwedge]

I like them in stuff like Jamal Jones because the basic zombieman at this point feels so useless, except for the fun of mowing down hoards of almost defenseless enemies... which is actually pretty great, admittedly.  But with a reskin this would feel more threatening in smaller numbers than zombiemen.

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

They are fine, but don't fill that much of a niche, being just another hitscanner in the usual HP range. If you want a slightly weaker chaingunner, then placement and architecture does that fine with regular chaingunners. One mapping move with placement is putting them in groups that have other monsters acting as potential mobile cover (like an imp or pinky). One with architecture is deliberately limiting how much of a space they can target. See Violence (by AD_79) for good examples of this, a run 'n' gun style wad that often has little-cover chaingunners, which might sound like a big contradiction but it uses both of those methods to avoid chaingunners being abrasive. 

i'm not sure that i can agree with this tbh; if you know how to utilize map geometry and monster placement in a way that nerfs the damage output of chaingunners a bit, then yeah, great, go ahead and do that. however, that heavily limits what you can do with it by setting specific conditions for its existence. having an ss soldier means that you can do the same, but have only space constraints to deal with. there's genuinely zero reason not to just use the ss soldiers (preferably with a sprite change) other than to challenge yourself.

[Murdoch]

The SS Nazis make sense in their context in Doom 2. They really don't anywhere else. Seeing a resource from another game essentially takes me out of the moment, albeit briefly. It doesn't bother me that much, but my brain can't help but go "oh hey that's that random texture from Duke3d" or whatever. Same with the SS. My brain would be like "Get back to your pocket of Hell, sir." 

[galileo31dos01]

You can see in Garrulismo and judge for yourself, just beware the mapper considered them as complementary in every hitscan salad as the other guys in the roster.

 

I think they're okay, I don't mind the rare surprise Easter egg content, the occasional meme horde or pcorf wolf-in-doom bonus no one asked for (respectfully speaking). That said, there's simply no reason not to use a reskinned variant or to replace him with something that actually adds a fresh flavor to the standard bestiary, like a flying plasma shooter, a fast melee chaser, or a bilingual sheep with a green beret and a mustache.

 

And yes, soldiers are a bit more closer to zombieman's threat level relative to what chaingunners regularly achieve in real play (sergeants' idiotic burst dps is on another echelon imo). Unless you are blatantly ignoring one that's been spamming for hours, the risk is low, much more lower than it seems like. In maps where I was handed a chainsaw somewhere, I have used it on chains of single roaming soldiers with little to no repercussions, something unthinkable if it was sergeants and my health state wasn't very high. It's also the delay between his reaction and attacking is notably slower than of the former humans - you have enough time to react, adjust your pants, take a sip of your coffee and hide before he pulls the trigger, while with shotgunners and chaingunners (and even zombiemen) you often first eat the bullets and then greet the dude who shot them, no matter the context. 

[enigma101]

I think they're fine in the Wolfenstein levels, but in normal Doom levels they just look out of place against the Chaingunners and Shotgunners, even if they're a nice middle ground between the two.

[Steve D]

I like them. I think they're a fun enemy, right down to their goofy appearance, which gives me a chuckle. I don't even feel a need to re-skin them.

[Solmyr]

Not an expert on the mapping field, but what the hell. The SS as it is fits quite nicely in between Zombiemen and Shotgunners although their threat level makes them closer to a Zombieman as others previously stated on this tread. 

 

The SS would fit a nice role as an early more threatenning zombie in the first map(s) of a pwad map pack or a megawad until the introduction of Chaingunners, then their role would switch to a Zombieman replacement from that point on for being less squishy as their HP is 50 while Zombiemen have 20, and because they are more threatenning.

 

The SS would just need a sprite sheet replacement to fit in the roster and new obituary like: "OB_WOLFSS = %o got fragged by a Former Marine"

Edited July 22, 2022 by Solmyr

[nolongeramnion]

[blanked]

Edited October 25, 2023 by amnion

[Majin]

the main gripe i have with the ss guys is that they don't have any attack animations for any direction but facing the player. infighting looks really goofy & confusing when the sprite shows them shooting at you while they're actually shooting something else behind them

Edited July 22, 2022 by Majin

[Azure_Horror]

IMHO, the main problem with Wolfen guys is their look.

Wolfen guys look ridiculously well-kempt. This is fine for an elite soldier in Wolf 3d, but in Doom context in looks too ridiculous. Bright blue uniforms do not help at all.

Curiously enough, doom enemies look okay in wolfenstein 3d environments. (see level 32 of doom2, or level 31 of 3 Heures d'agonie 1). This means that Doom and Wolf 3d styles are not inherently incompatible. The problem is with the choice of Wolf 3d enemy. Wolf 3d Mutants, for example, would look acceptable inside Doom environments, despite the style difference.

 

Visuals aside, Wolfen Guys have a fine gameplay niche.

They are essentially SMG zombies, who combine relatively low DPS with autofiring capability. You need at least 3 Wolfen guys to match Chaingunner’s DPS. They are also quite beefy, with their 50 hp. This can prove useful in many situations, where shotgunners, imps or chaingunners are undesirable for some reason.

With a proper sprite replacement, SMG zombies can effectively complement other Doom foes.

(Check Lost Civilization map 18 for an interesting use for SMG troopers. No Decorate or deHacked was used, as far as I know!)

 

2 hours ago, Solmyr said:

The SS as it is fits quite nicely in between Zombiemen and Shotgunners although their threat level makes them closer to a Zombieman as others previously stated on this tread.

 

Unless we are talking about -fast monsters, I disagree that Wolfen Guys are always weaker than Shotgunners.

Shotgunner’s shots are three times more powerful, yes. But SMG-wielding Wolfen guys have autofire. In close quarters, shotgunners are more dangerous. But at longer distances, SMG zombies can easily achieve higher DPS. And even in close quarters, 50 hp SMG zombies have their benefits.

 

What encounter is more scary: a pair of shotgunners, or a pair of Wolfen guys?

It really depends. If you are armed with a single barrel shotgun, you can oneshot both shotgunners at once, but cannot oneshot both Wolfenguards. If you are armed with a pistol – you can kill shotgunners faster, and you will also get a shotgun for your trouble. On the other hand, Wolfengurads are more predictable, and can be more easily made to infight.

And against high-power weapons, both shotgunners and Wolfenstein's go SPLAT in almost an instant, so not much difference here.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Azure_Horror
Clarified a point

[BGreener]

I wouldn’t be opposed to a map or set that gave their attack to the regular zombiedudes. You wouldn’t even need any sprite replacements.

[baja blast rd.]

18 hours ago, roadworx said:

i'm not sure that i can agree with this tbh; if you know how to utilize map geometry and monster placement in a way that nerfs the damage output of chaingunners a bit, then yeah, great, go ahead and do that. however, that heavily limits what you can do with it by setting specific conditions for its existence. having an ss soldier means that you can do the same, but have only space constraints to deal with. there's genuinely zero reason not to just use the ss soldiers (preferably with a sprite change) other than to challenge yourself.

 

I've played a lot of Doom wads and mappers are good at that already imo. It's not that hard to do relative to the many aspects of mapping that are hard to do.  

 

"Challenge yourself" is not how I'd put it. That suggests that people who use the default bestiary without any customs at all, and try to come up with fresh gameplay, are abiding by that restriction to challenge themselves. When there are a lot of reasons one might do that that aren't about challenging themselves.  

 

To be clear, I think a reskinned SS (with the same behavior) is categorically a lot more similar to a 'custom monster' than to a stock one, despite being in the game already. If you add that in a wad, it will parse to players as "custom monster" (so for people who want part of their wad's identity to be sticking to the stock monster set, they can't just throw in the reskinned SS). Checking out Doomkid's JJ, the notable thing about that is the reskinned Nazi is just one added monster out of many, rather than the wad adding one custom monster. When you have more customs, treating one monster as more something that adds character/texture rather than a distinct gameplay role is more of an option, like how Valiant has the supermancubus but Ancient Aliens makes its two customs really count. 

 

If a wad commits to using just 1 or 2 custom monsters, and you don't have a strongly themed-related reason to use the reskinned SS, it seems better to have those choices fill a more distinct niche than just be the reskinned SS. So the issue there is opportunity cost. Sure you can have a "weaker chaingunner," but most wads that use two customs instead use that spot on something more different -- like a low-tier flier, or another low-grade projectile hurler with an arach/manc/rev projectile -- for good reason.

[Rudolph]

To answer the OP: 

 

 

In all seriousness, I agree with others that the enemy itself would be fine with more thematically-fitting sprites.

 

Realm667's Rapid Fire Trooper or Machine Gun Zombieman would be fine candidates for that.

[Stupid Bunny]

31 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

To be clear, I think a reskinned SS (with the same behavior) is categorically a lot similar to a 'custom monster' than to a stock one, despite being in the game already. If you add that in a wad, it will parse to players as "custom monster" (so for people who want part of their wad's identity to be sticking to the stock monster set, they can't just throw in the reskinned SS). Checking out Doomkid's JJ, the notable thing about that is the reskinned Nazi is just one added monster out of many, rather than the wad adding one custom monster. When you have more customs, treating one monster as more something that adds character/texture rather than a distinct gameplay role is more of an option, like how Valiant has the supermancubus but Ancient Aliens makes its two customs really count. 

 

If a wad commits to using just 1 or 2 custom monsters, and you don't have a strongly themed-related reason to use the reskinned SS, it seems better to have those choices fill a more distinct niche than just be the reskinned SS. So the issue there is opportunity cost. Sure you can have a "weaker chaingunner," but most wads that use two customs instead use that spot on something more different -- like a low-tier flier, or another low-grade projectile hurler with an arach/manc/rev projectile -- for good reason.

 

This is a good point.  There's something of that "Well, if I'm going as far as replacing the animation frames then I might as well just replace the entire monster".  Discussions often come up about what monsters the Doom II roster is missing, and people's answers usually aren't "weaker chaingunner" outside of discussions like this that directly concern the role of the SS man

 

14 hours ago, Steve D said:

I like them. I think they're a fun enemy, right down to their goofy appearance, which gives me a chuckle. I don't even feel a need to re-skin them.

 

I am also totally down with this though

[baja blast rd.]

7 hours ago, Azure_Horror said:

Unless we are talking about -fast monsters, I disagree that Wolfen Guys are always weaker than Shotgunners.

Shotgunner’s shots are three times more powerful, yes. But SMG-wielding Wolfen guys have autofire. In close quarters, shotgunners are more dangerous. But at longer distances, SMG zombies can easily achieve higher DPS. And even in close quarters, 50 hp SMG zombies have their benefits.

  

What encounter is more scary: a pair of shotgunners, or a pair of Wolfen guys?

It really depends. If you are armed with a single barrel shotgun, you can oneshot both shotgunners at once, but cannot oneshot both Wolfenguards. If you are armed with a pistol – you can kill shotgunners faster, and you will also get a shotgun for your trouble. On the other hand, Wolfengurads are more predictable, and can be more easily made to infight.

And against high-power weapons, both shotgunners and Wolfenstein's go SPLAT in almost an instant, so not much difference here.

 

Average damage doesn't really mean much for danger imo. 

 

If I take ~15 damage in a setup almost every time but never die, I pick a bit of health and I'm on my way. But if it's more boom or bust, sometimes 0, but possibly 50+, that will be a threat that can actually kill me sometimes, or put me on really low health when I can't fully recover easily for the next scuffle or fight. That can be a lot more dangerous even if the monster responsible does less damage on average. 

 

There are some extreme attritional (low resource) maps where avg damage might matter more, but most maps don't use that approach to balancing to an extent that it'd matter. And even in attritional maps it's not clear that's always true; the shotgunners' extremes now punish you harder. 

 

I tried some comparisons (shotgunners and SSes in a small room, around 512x512 with low cover) and what Galileo said about the SS's slow reactions was pretty relevant. Even without cover, I'm simply waltzing up to them and point-blanking them. If they fire, I can use that delay time of theirs to get two SSes lined up, one being a meatshield against the other. Sergeants are more easily cluster killable but in that setup, that often requires you to get close to one, which is very dangerous.

 

And if you have high cover, the SSes can't really sustain damage, but the shotgunners can potentially capitalize on a lapse to get a burst off.

 

If you have enough cover and positional advantage that you can easily double-kill sergeants -- for example they're funneling at you from one direction and kind of far -- then SSes in the same position will be even easier. In those types of setups, sergeants would punish slight mistakes harder whereas with SSes you have to stand in front of them for a prolonged time to "mess up." 

 

My whole thing about the comparison is that in 95-99% of cases both SSes and shotgunners will be easy, neither will be very dangerous, but the shotgunners are more punishing in the exceptional cases (which is not simply RNG either, but they have a wider range of ways they can punish mistakes). 

 

7 hours ago, Azure_Horror said:

(Check Lost Civilization map 18 for an interesting use for SMG troopers. No Decorate or deHacked was used, as far as I know!)

 

Speaking of, this is a perfect example of how I would use them -- as part of the story/theme a map goes for. 

[out_of_service]

They're worthy as in-betweeners. Just rebuild the sprites as another type of former human and add the appropriate sounds and Bob's your uncle.