Rant: Vanilla is too limited

[Matthias]

I wonder if someone feels this way as well, but classic vanilla Doom map format feels too limited sometimes. Maybe it's a weird complain, like "what do you expect from a computer game that was made back in 1993, huh?" but, yeah...
 

Imagine you want to make a map and add certain features. For example you want boss fight where you kill the cyberdemon and killing him opens a door to the exit. Simple thing, but of course you can't because it's a vanilla format.
 

The thing is, this function is not some sort of modern super duper effect, but very simple thing that you are almost wondering why it's not possible in Doom since always... And actually, it somewhat is, like the wall that opens in E1M8 when you kill barons or the two tags that work in MAP07 when you kill mancubi and spiders. Unfortunately it's hardcoded in the engine of the game and you can't change it in anyway. Not as a mapper.
 

So you can use a modern Zdoom map format or maybe even UDMF, but it feels like an overkill to use these just because you want one or two simple functions. Using Zdoom also means you will loose many players, because the doom community seems to prefer vanilla megawads (you know, the vanilla purists) or at least they can forgive you the Boom format. Also also when you use Zdoom, you're like "why not to use other Zdoom features?" so you can add 3D floors and slopes and scripts and cutscenes with dialogues and NPCs and such... Of course, this is a little hyperbole from me, but yeah, when you say your megawad is Zdoom or UDMF format, community will have certain expectations from it and they might be surprised (maybe even disappointed) that your megawad is basically just vanilla and Zdoom is used only for certain small things here and there.
 

So my point is = vanilla can't do almost anything, Zdoom or UDMF can do almost everything, but maybe it's too much as you might not even need like 90 % of features and people will expect certain today's standards from it.
 

I simply wish there was some sort of Vanilla+ format that was almost like vanilla, loved by all vanilla purists, worked in almost every single port and contained only few new small basic fetarues yet the powerful ones that gives you more freedom.
 

What do you think? Am I insane to think this way?:D

Edited July 27, 2022 by Matthias (LiquidDoom)

[SMG_Man]

8 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

I simply wish there was some sort of Vanilla+ format that was almost like vanilla, loved by all vanilla purists, worked in almost every single port and contained only few new small basic fetarues yet the powerful ones that gives you more freedom.

 

my guy, have you not heard of the UMAPINFO standard?

[Arsinikk]

30 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

Imagine you want to make a map and add certain features. For example you want boss fight where you kill the cyberdemon and killing him opens a door to the exit. Simple thing, but of course you can't because it's a vanilla format.

I think you are thinking of this in the wrong way. First off, if you want to map in the vanilla format, you must be creative. There are alot of simple things you can't do in Vanilla, like how there are only a few ceiling actions. In your example, I suggest you try to think differently if you actually wanna map in Vanilla. Instead of making an action happen on the death of a Cyberdemon, instead create a situation that forces the player to deal with the Cyberdemon first... either as a sort of "door" in front of the exit, or just block the exit with a bunch of monsters, forcing the player to first deal with a sniping Cyberdemon or something.

 

30 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

So you can use a modern Zdoom map format or maybe even UDMF, but it feels like an overkill to use these just because you want one or two simple functions. Using Zdoom also means you will loose many players, because the doom community seems to prefer vanilla megawads (you know, the vanilla purists) or at least they can forgive you the Boom format. Also also when you use Zdoom, you're like "why not to use other Zdoom features?" so you can add 3D floors and slopes and scripts and cutscenes with dialogues and NPCs and such... Of course, this is a little hyperbole from me, but yeah, when you say your megawad is Zdoom or UDMF format, community will have certain expectations from it and they might be surprised (maybe even disappointed) that your megawad is basically just vanilla and Zdoom is used only for certain small things here and there.

I do only suggest people to use ZDoom only if they want to utilise ZDoom only features like 3D floors or advanced scripting.

 

30 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

I simply wish there was some sort of Vanilla+ format that was almost like vanilla, loved by all vanilla purists, worked in almost every single port and contained only few new small basic fetarues yet the powerful ones that gives you more freedom.

There is a Vanilla+ format. It's called Boom, MBF or even the more recent MBF21. Those add alot of the features you are complaining about. If you specifically would like boss death actions, you can look at UMAPINFO for boss deaths in specific maps. Keep in mind these will not work with the Vanilla exe.

 

There is a reason why Vanilla has a certain crowd that likes it. It is some of these issues that mappers have to work around in Vanilla, that I'm sure that's part of the reason Vanilla purists appreciate them.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Arsinikk

[TimeOfDeath666]

16 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

Imagine you want to make a map and add certain features. For example you want boss fight where you kill the cyberdemon and killing him opens a door to the exit. Simple thing, but of course you can't because it's a vanilla format.

The fun part of vanilla mapping is figuring out ways to get your ideas to work in the limited format. For your example, one way would be to add the KeenDie action to the cyberdemon's death with dehacked and a door with tag 666 will open after all cybers have died.

[esselfortium]

Boom or MBF21 are what you're looking for. Vanilla is the Masochist's Choice™.

[Gez]

30 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

Imagine you want to make a map and add certain features. For example you want boss fight where you kill the cyberdemon and killing him opens a door to the exit. Simple thing, but of course you can't because it's a vanilla format.

Imagine if there had been dozens upon dozens of source ports that were created since 1998 that give you more editing features and less limitations.

 

30 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

So my point is = vanilla can't do almost anything, Zdoom or UDMF can do almost everything, but maybe it's too much as you might not even need like 90 % of features and people will expect certain today's standards from it.

So vanilla is too limited and ZDoom is not limited enough? Oh, what a harsh world we live in...

 

30 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

I simply wish there was some sort of Vanilla+ format that was almost like vanilla, loved by all vanilla purists, worked in almost every single port and contained only few new small basic fetarues yet the powerful ones that gives you more freedom.

That's pretty much exactly the niche that Boom occupies.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Gez

[Jayextee]

The limitations are why I love vanilla maps and mapping. Even the visplane/drawseg limits that many mappers abhor, I find they keep detail in check and prevent things from becoming overly-cluttered.

This being said, I don't think you're insane for not thinking the same way. World's a varied place and so are its people; you're valid.

[Hitboi]

32 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

What do you think? Am I insane to think this way?:D

Not to mention the strictness of adding custom sprites (ALL sprites have to be replaced for customization in vanilla unless Doom crashes) and the limits of using vanilla dehacked, but Boom or MBF is probably what you're looking for.

[maxmanium]

I understand this sentiment though. Boom and MBF all come with their own set of bugs and quirks and further limit the amount of source ports your wad will run on.

[IcarusOfDaggers]

I'm just surprised people even want to stay in the past with an engine that is so well customizable, simple to learn, yet hard to master.  

 

What I really hate though is the "you use zdoom so you must use all the advanced features" mentality....

 

@maxmanium I do agree on MBF, but boom itself does not limit ports that much. It's right in the middle ground, where I believe the OP wants to be.

Edited July 27, 2022 by IcarusOfDaggers

[dasho]

UDMF in and of itself does not imply advanced features. If using the "Doom" namespace, it can simply be treated as a sort of limit removing vanilla format.

[IcarusOfDaggers]

3 minutes ago, dasho said:

UDMF in and of itself does not imply advanced features. If using the "Doom" namespace, it can simply be treated as a sort of limit removing vanilla format.

Problem with UDMF is, that only one sourceport (and it's forks) supports UDMF, as far as I know. i might be wrong here

[dasho]

1 minute ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

Problem with UDMF is, that only one sourceport (and it's forks) supports UDMF, as far as I know. i might be wrong here

 

K8vavoom, Eternity, EDGE, ZDoom family, and I believe the Delphi series of ports at least. There's nothing keeping it from being used in other ports as well, developer interest aside.

Edited July 27, 2022 by dasho

[Matthias]

1 minute ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

I'm just surprised people even want to stay in the past with an engine that is so well customizable, simple to learn, yet hard to master.  

 

What I really hate though is the "you use zdoom so you must use all the advanced features" mentality....

 

Well, sorry then...
 

But if I download a limit removing vanilla megawad or maybe Boom megawad, I expect normal Doom maps.

But when I download a Zdoom megawad and it's a .pk3 file, I will expect it will have Zdoom features.

 

And if you download a Zdoom map, play it and realize its content is mostly vanilla-like and Zdoom is used only for one small thing, you are like "Isn't the a little bit unnecessary? The author could just avoid this little thing and make it vanilla, or at least Boom, so it will work for far more ports, right?"

[maxmanium]

11 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

@maxmanium I do agree on MBF, but boom itself does not limit ports that much. It's right in the middle ground, where I believe the OP wants to be.

 

 

That's a fair point; my issue is more with the bugs and quirks thing. You have to account for some stuff like enemies being pushed off ledges, the weird SSG glitch where it reloads with no ammo left (similar issue with the plasma rifle), not allowing an override for weapon switching when running out of ammo, shitty OPL emulation in DOSBox...

Edited July 27, 2022 by maxmanium

[Bauul]

3 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

Problem with UDMF is, that only one sourceport (and it's forks) supports UDMF, as far as I know. i might be wrong here

 

UDMF is actually supported in one form or another by a range of sourceports: DelphiDoom, Eternity, GZDoom, EDGE, Vavoom, ZDoom, Skulltag, and Zandronum (at least according to the Doom Wiki).

 

I do agree it more often is treated is synonymous with GZDoom.  I'd love to one day see a "middle-road" sourceport like PRBoom+ or DSDA support UDMF - all those lovely limit removals but still the robust demo support of classic vanilla gameplay feel.

 

 

7 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

What I really hate though is the "you use zdoom so you must use all the advanced features" mentality....

 

I would echo this.  There's definitely a presumption that comes with targeting GZDoom that unless a map uses a good number of GZDoom's features it somehow "isn't worth it".  

Edited July 27, 2022 by Bauul

[IcarusOfDaggers]

Just now, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

 

Well, sorry then...
 

But if I download a limit removing vanilla megawad or maybe Boom megawad, I expect normal Doom maps.

But when I download a Zdoom megawad and it's a .pk3 file, I will expect it will have Zdoom features.

 

And if you download a Zdoom map, play it and realize its content is mostly vanilla-like and Zdoom is used only for one small thing, you are like "Isn't the a little bit unnecessary? The author could just avoid this little thing and make it vanilla, or at least Boom, so it will work for far more ports, right?"

 

Not neccesserily. 

 

The thing about Zdoom is, that the same mentality tends to go for zdoom .wad files, not just pk3 files.

PK3 in itself is quite a complex topic. Simple, yet complex enough to understand why most maps are more traditional looking, especially if it's one of the few newer maps

[Bauul]

10 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

And if you download a Zdoom map, play it and realize its content is mostly vanilla-like and Zdoom is used only for one small thing, you are like "Isn't the a little bit unnecessary? The author could just avoid this little thing and make it vanilla, or at least Boom, so it will work for far more ports, right?"

 

I'm going to be facetious here, but essentially you're saying you want the author to compromise their artistic vision for the sole purpose of making it more accessible to a wider audience.  Isn't that called dumbing down, and something generally frowned upon in a creative medium?

 

Of course the reality is that most mappers actually would want their creations to be played by more people and generally would probably opt to make small cutbacks if it meant their map worked on a wider variety of ports, but you as a player don't necessarily have the right to expect that of mappers.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by Bauul

[Redneckerz]

This is literally Boom that is described. Except Boom is its own different beast entirely, it can run on a 486 (But you will be hard pressed to find Boom's effects playing nice there in more ambitious maps!)

45 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

I wonder if someone feels this way as well, but classic vanilla Doom map format feels too limited sometimes. Maybe it's a weird complain, like "what do you expect from a computer game that was made back in 1993, huh?" but, yeah...
 

Imagine you want to make a map and add certain features. For example you want boss fight where you kill the cyberdemon and killing him opens a door to the exit. Simple thing, but of course you can't because it's a vanilla format.
 

The thing is, this function is not some sort of modern super duper effect, but very simple thing that you are almost wondering why it's not possible in Doom since always... And actually, it somewhat is, like the wall that opens in E1M8 when you kill barons or the two tags that work in MAP07 when you kill mancubi and spiders. Unfortunately it's hardcoded in the engine of the game and you can't change it in anyway. Not as a mapper.

 

I don't feel this way fully. Tech heads still discover new tricks in vanilla, from linguortals to animated displays to full on code injection. It just requires some clever thinking and bending the engine in unusual ways.

 

24 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

Boom or MBF21 are what you're looking for. Vanilla is the Masochist's Choice™.

Oh, you would know, being a queen at this with BTSX ^^

7 minutes ago, maxmanium said:

I understand this sentiment though. Boom and MBF all come with their own set of bugs and quirks and further limit the amount of source ports your wad will run on.

I disagree with the bolded. I don't think that a Boom-compatible mapset or MBF-compatible mapset limits your amount of ports, Boom even less so. There are several current ports with Boom/PrBoom lineage that run all the latest faves just dandy.

3 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

Problem with UDMF is, that only one sourceport (and it's forks) supports UDMF, as far as I know. i might be wrong here

5 shillings to pay as a fine for not reading the Wiki! :P

 

UDMF is pretty standard. You want something obscure? Look no further than GADoom's Mod Files. Incidentially, it might just be what you wanted.

 

1 minute ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

But if I download a limit removing vanilla megawad or maybe Boom megawad, I expect normal Doom maps.

That is a strange expectation you are setting yourself for because you are literally mentioning they are limit-removing/Boom. Those come with a new set of features. So its odd that if its a ZDoom megawad your mind suddenly goes ''Hey, i expect it has ZDoom features''.

 

[Matthias]

9 minutes ago, Bauul said:

 

I'm going to be facetious here, but essentially you're saying you want the author to compromise their artistic vision for the sole purpose of making it more accessible to a wider audience.  Isn't that called dumbing down, and something generally frowned upon in a creative medium?

 

Of course the reality is that most mappers actually would want their creations to be played by more people and generally would probably opt to make small cutbacks if it meant their map worked on a wider variety of ports, but you as a player don't necessarily have the right to expect that of mappers.  

 

Well, I was very theoreticall, because it's not the I actually have even seen such a thing. The authors usually know from the start they want vanilla or Zdoom.

 

Anyway I have my own experience from my childhood. I made a vanilla map and then I discovered Zdoom format. I changed the map format of my map to Zdoom, because I was curious and I wanted to know what it can do. I put there a friendly Doom marine. And I was convinced it's cool, so I kept it that way.

15 years later I decided to publish the map (it was released as Destroy Hell megawad) and I decided to delete the friendly NPC and change the format back to vanilla, because... well.. Why it make impossible to play it in Chocolate-Doom and prBoom+ and Doomsday and almost everything just because of one friendly marine NPC? It felt unecessary.

I would keep it Zdoom if I used many Zdoom features and made them actually relevant for the design, of course.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Matthias (LiquidDoom)

[ebrl]

1a. make maps for the format that has the features you need

1b. don't mistake features you want for features you need

[IcarusOfDaggers]

39 minutes ago, Bauul said:

 

I'm going to be facetious here, but essentially you're saying you want the author to compromise their artistic vision for the sole purpose of making it more accessible to a wider audience.  Isn't that called dumbing down, and something generally frowned upon in a creative medium?

 

Of course the reality is that most mappers actually would want their creations to be played by more people and generally would probably opt to make small cutbacks if it meant their map worked on a wider variety of ports, but you as a player don't necessarily have the right to expect that of mappers.  

 

except, i get the feeling from doomworld community, that this is exactly what is expected from mappers

 

@Redneckerz one extra port? nah, i won't pay that fine. maybe a penny...
edit2: oh.... and then i read the next post.... i'll go hide from authorities  now

Edited July 27, 2022 by IcarusOfDaggers

[Matthias]

I hope this discussion doesn't look like I am some sort of Vanilla hater. I am actually mostly vanilla purist and about 90 % of megawads I play are Vanilla or Boom. I love vanilla for just being classic, for being simple and lightweight, it's almost perfect, but couple of things I miss.

 

In my mind, I strictly separate megawads for vanilla or boom (Alien Vendetta, Scytche, Whispers of Satan, Requiem) and (g)Zdoom megawads (Unloved, Lullaby).

 

I currently work on Boom megawad and I love Boom. It has everything I need. But sometimes I miss just one small thing here and there.

 

For example I am working on a city map and I was like "that would be great if you could add a trashcan as a decoration to create better feeling of a city." and I was suprised how rare are city decoration things (considering the Doom II lore is being hell on Earth, you know Downtown and such). And I realized that I am force to use hellish decorations like Evil Eye and such.
 

I don't want to use Dehacked to change a thing for other thing because it's just one map out of 32.
 

Then I realized that would be possible if my map was in Zdoom format, but my megawad is more like Whispers of Satan than Unloved.

 

So nothing against vanilla, it's just, you sometimes miss only a small thing here and there.

 

Many people here suggest it's a good thing about vanilla - it forces you to be creative. I partially agree, but also I don't like it sometimes... Sometimes you have to make a dummy sector to teleport mosters into the arena, while you could use just some simple spawn point or something. And sometimes I don't like these workarounds. They are also a source of many issues, because they might work differently in many source ports and their versions.

Many people also said that what I described sounds like Boom. Well, yeah, Boom is pretty close to it. I love Boom, great format. Yet it's still missing some simple features.

 

Don't get my wrong. I love all ports and their use cases and features. It's just sometimes I wish vanilla Doom was more like vanilla Hexen :))

 

Thanks for letting me know about MBF21. I will read about it more and try it. Never noticed it's in UDB.

[Koko Ricky]

Pure vanilla mods are not super common. I think most people prefer limit removing as a baseline, as vanilla imposes a lot of restrictions in terms of the size and density of maps. To me the best approach is to pick a format that most closely matches your vision, though your vision is ideally keeping limitations in mind. 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Koko Ricky

[Hitboi]

44 minutes ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

Why it make impossible to play it in Chocolate-Doom and prBoom+ and Doomsday and almost everything just because of one friendly marine NPC? It felt unecessary.

You could've made a friendly NPC with DeHacked, and I don't get that one NPC could make your entire map unplayable, you could've just port the map to be Vanilla-compatible and fix the things in your map that require the NPC to exist.

[7Mahonin]

It’s the only format I personally use for making levels of my own because if my levels will run on the DOS system they will forever be future-proofed, but I do not care if another person’s map is vanilla compatible or not, nor do I care if it is made specifically for one port or not. 
 

I don’t get the biases over different source ports from one to the next. They’re not sports teams competing against each other as far as I can tell. They’re more like cheerleaders for the original source code, which is the team we are all rooting for, even if we don’t realize it.
 

It’s okay to have a favorite or even favorites, and if one doesn’t run on your system then it makes sense to not use that one, but most of the complaints I’ve read about source ports, no matter which, is usually a personal problem, not a software problem. There’s a difference of course between a bug report and whining because a source port has a feature on or off by default, is what I’m getting at here.
 

If one won’t play something because of the port(s) it does or does not support that’s just a loss on them, nobody else really. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by 7Mahonin

[the_kovic]

The real answer is Boom or MDF but I'm gonna spread the gospel and say DOOM 64 map format is for you. You can do vanilla-like maps and no one will be mad at you and yet you get access to the features you lack in DOOM 2 vanilla (and you get some very nice colored lighting as a bonus).

[Matthias]

5 minutes ago, the_kovic said:

The real answer is Boom or MDF but I'm gonna spread the gospel and say DOOM 64 map format is for you. You can do vanilla-like maps and no one will be mad at you and yet you get access to the features you lack in DOOM 2 vanilla (and you get some very nice colored lighting as a bonus).

 

Oh, actually when you mentioned, yes Doom 64 is great, because it feels like something between Vanilla Doom and Hexen :)

It doesn't feel like overkill... just a couple of simple things, like spawning enemies, color lightings, projectiles... but it makes the game extremely interesting.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Matthias (LiquidDoom)

[IcarusOfDaggers]

1 minute ago, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

I hope this discussion doesn't look like I am some sort of Vanilla hater. I am actually mostly vanilla purist and about 90 % of megawads I play are Vanilla or Boom. I love vanilla for just being classic, for being simple and lightweight, it's almost perfect, but couple of things I miss.

 

In my mind, I strictly separate megawads for vanilla or boom (Alien Vendetta, Scytche, Whispers of Satan, Requiem) and (g)Zdoom megawads (Unloved, Lullaby).

 

I currently work on Boom megawad and I love Boom. It has everything I need. But sometimes I miss just one small thing here and there.

 

For example I am working on a city map and I was like "that would be great if you could add a trashcan as a decoration to create better feeling of a city." and I was suprised how rare are city decoration things (considering the Doom II lore is being hell on Earth, you know Downtown and such). And I realized that I am force to use hellish decorations like Evil Eye and such.
 

 

 

thankfully boom is awesome at custom items and textures, so you can create a trashcan by replacing, say, a candle :D

[Egg Boy]

my brother in christ you choose the format