Rant: Vanilla is too limited

[MTrop]

As a creator, if you pick a format that you want to work in, you don't get to complain about its limits.

 

As a player, if you play a map that is built around a feature set, you'd expect those features to be used, hopefully effectively.

 

However, both should not expect more out of what they choose to work in or play, given the experience of the author. Entitlement goes both ways.

 

Dealing with limitations make you a better artist - not for "flexing" or "street cred," but how to think about effective use of your available resources. Even the "limitless" ports have limits, and people will still find ways to complain about them. We work on bounded machines. It's the nature of the beast.

 

The best we can do is acknowledge the truth, and temper our expectations.

[Nikku4211]

Boom.

 

Did I just hear an explosion? Let me get my marine's best friend.

[SMG_Man]

4 hours ago, wallabra said:

Does that still count as vanilla then? Like for DSDA stuff?

 

Using UMAPINFO almost certainly falls under "limit-removing", but ports like PrBoom and DSDA Doom are already limit-removing and have UMAPINFO support anyway, so there's no real issue. This is more to the LiquidDoom's wish for a "vanilla+" format, which UMAPINFO essentially is. It gives the ability to add boss triggers, customize the cutscene text, change the sky, use varying intermission graphics, and so on... All things that are hard-coded (but present nonetheless) in the original games. I think this is pretty open and shut.

[jazzmaster9]

11 hours ago, Majin said:

in many ways modern engines are a crutch: it's cool & easy to attach a door trigger to a boss to make mandatory--but the true underlying lesson is that having this feature doesn't make your a better mapper, in fact i'd go as far to say that without it, you're forced to make the boss mandatory by constructing an environment to facilitate it--thus making you a better mapper in the long term. 

 

I have to say I disagree with this as a primarily GZDoom mapper, maximizing the tools you have to create something that is enjoyable and creative is what makes you better mapper and that includes Vanilla limits and ZDoom features.
How can I make a Door Trigger Boss Fight engaging with custom enemies and ACS? is just as a valid a problem solving as How can I make my layout to facilitate this boss fight with walls? 
 

Im sorry, but this idea that im somehow taking "the easy way out" by using ZDoom features is what turned me the hell off from making vanilla/Limit Removing stuff for ages and focused on making my GZDoom skill set better.

Edited July 28, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[sandwedge]

I didn't realize I would be into vanilla but it has its own cool, distinct feel.  Play something like Anomaly Report and tell me you can't make some fantastic stuff under those limitations.  There's something cool about seeing something that works within that engine from 93.

[Stabbey]

On 7/27/2022 at 12:49 PM, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

 

Well, sorry then...
 

But if I download a limit removing vanilla megawad or maybe Boom megawad, I expect normal Doom maps.

But when I download a Zdoom megawad and it's a .pk3 file, I will expect it will have Zdoom features.

 

And if you download a Zdoom map, play it and realize its content is mostly vanilla-like and Zdoom is used only for one small thing, you are like "Isn't the a little bit unnecessary? The author could just avoid this little thing and make it vanilla, or at least Boom, so it will work for far more ports, right?"

I actually greatly enjoy thinking creatively and trying to get my stuff to work with only vanilla line actions. However, what I do not enjoy are visplane overflows, and winking sprites if there are > 128 things visible at once. I do not consider those to be interesting limits.

 

For that reason, most of my maps require a modern source port, even though I did not insert a bunch of arbitrary WOW LOOKIT DA FEATURES in them for the sake of having arbitrary features. I have received complaints and negative feedback about my maps, but none that I recall was of the "I expected WOW LOOKIT DA FEATURES, where are my FEATURES" variety. And to be honest, if I ever received "I expected FEATURES" feedback, I would ignore it, because there's lots of other maps out there which would be better suited for them anyway.

[Snaxalotl]

You should map in the format you like the most, don't just pick vanilla because it has the largest pool of players.
 

[Clippy]

2 hours ago, Snaxalotl said:

You should map in the format you like the most, don't just pick vanilla because it has the largest pool of players.
 

 

That's why I pick limit removing, the second largest pool

 

I've tried vanilla mapping but it's too stressful the limitations. I can't wrap my head around these particular restrictions

 

Limit removing feels fun laid back and easy to map for these days. Feels very comfortable to map for

[Doomkid]

Just to pull out an ERM ACKSHUALLY I think Boom is the most common map format still. It was by a wide margin some years ago, but vanilla and L/R have been on the rise for a few years now too (which pleases me greatly).

[Shibainumaster]

De gustu nulla controversia est. I guess if you wanna be more versatile use Boom or Limit removing, if you want to make doom more of a modern FPS use Zdoom based engine types. Vanilla is simple, but despite it's limitations leading to out-of-the-box creative choices it's really easy to make a level too overbearing for it.

[Devalaous]

On 7/28/2022 at 4:14 AM, SMG_Man said:

 

my guy, have you not heard of the UMAPINFO standard?

 

For a 'universal' mapinfo, it sure isn't universal!

[Budoka]

The limit removing + dehacked combo gave us Scythe II, A.L.T (kind of) and Struggle: Antaresian Legacy, which are among the best of the best megawads ever released, so it's slowly becoming my favorite format of them all. In the case of BTSX E1 and E2, it's even vanilla + dehacked(which is an amazing accomplishment, but I don't think this approach really has more interesting potential than just going with limit removing). So I'd say there is definitely something to be said for creative limitations and non-tampered engine behavior being an advantage. Even so, the majority of WADs I've enjoyed are Boom or MBF. Probably because, as Doomkid said, Boom seems to have been an extremely popular mapping format throughout the years, faults and all. 

 

Regarding the potential complaint of Zdoom features being under-utilized, I've personally run more often into the exact opposite concern, with mappers cramming as many advanced mechanics and tricks as possible into their mapsets just because those features exist, with rather little method to the madness (see for example "The Ultimate Torment and Torture"). Luckily this trend seems to be slowly dying and it seems that most modern GzDoom mappers know better.

 

As for replacing resources, that's perfectly fine, but you can do it even in vanilla. I'm personally pretty partial to wads with a lot of custom textures and sometimes sprites. I've found that the winning formula is often custom resources, vanilla mechanics (optionally glorified vanilla mechanics to the extent that you really know what you're doing in terms of game design).

Edited July 29, 2022 by Budoka

[Edward850]

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is. Yes, vanilla is limited, but what is the use of complaining about that? You can't build a time machine and change it, it's a static constant, and complaining to us is just preaching to the choir. And if you don't want to map to it's restrictions, then just don't, you already have other options.

[mrthejoshmon]

Broke:

Not mapping in Vanilla because it is too limiting, you don't want to be limited by visplanes and sprite limits.

 

Woke:

Mapping in vanilla to challenge yourself against ancient limitations.

[wallabra]

The point is that you should pick what you wanna pick and go with that and not complain.

 

 

But I know everyone in the audience has a bit of a stigma. I can tell. Just by looking at your face. I know you judge. :)

[Paf]

10 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 

For a 'universal' mapinfo, it sure isn't universal!

Same with the """"Universal"""" Doom Map Format (UDMF). At least UMAPINFO is more accessible though

[Nine Inch Heels]

On 7/28/2022 at 1:06 PM, MTrop said:

As a creator, if you pick a format that you want to work in, you don't get to complain about its limits.

Me when signing up for UDINO:

"Yeah, sure, I've got an idea for a map. It'll be fun. Count me in!"

 

Me while creating said map:
"Really sucks not to have generalized actions and looping conveyors..."

 

Me after creating said map:
"I'll never do another vanilla map again, not even if limit-removing..."

 

Me when hearing another mapslot might be open:
"Yeah, sure, I've got an idea for a map. It'll be fun. Count me in!"

 

What I'm saying is... it's not that simple...

[OniriA]

 

 

 

 

[YoshizinGordin]

Nice Try, Graf Zahl.

[Ozcar]

People who play vanilla:

Edited July 29, 2022 by Ozcar

[Ozcar]

Yeah sure, btw im going play on dosbox just like old day of doom

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Ozcar

[wallabra]

Unaboomer mod when

[SMG_Man]

1 hour ago, OniriA said:

---

 

[Jayextee]

Thinking about it, how you gonna really complain about vanilla being limited when REKKR exists?

[Ozcar]

I feel like this thread is going to locked

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

Me too lol

[Stupid Bunny]

51 minutes ago, SMG_Man said:

 

Yes this is it 👍 

 

I thought these fruitless format/sourceport wars were a thing of the past, but I don’t know why I thought that they’re never going to go away ever

 

So anyway what do we all think about Brutal Doom guys 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Stupid Bunny

[wallabra]

I'd love to add some passionate shitposts to have a good laugh with our fellow Doomtrymen*, but I feel like that would just keep bumping this thread to the top of its respective subforum for no good reason, and since that would get in the way of meaningful discussion, I think this means this thread would be best closed. Its contribution has already been made when the community collectively reinstated the importance of every modality of Doom mapping, and that if you don't like one, you should just pick another one :)

 

* ^{haha get it?... because countrymen?... aw... :c}

 

[mrthejoshmon]

Damn it guys the shitpost only works once...

 

1 hour ago, SMG_Man said:

*snip*

Nevermind, real king shit.

Edited July 29, 2022 by mrthejoshmon

[baja blast rd.]

Countertake: Vanilla is not limited enough. That BTSX was possible is proof of this. Visplane overflows should be used as a gameplay mechanic and boats should have been the final boss.