Circumcision.wad

[Biodegradable]

  On 8/2/2022 at 11:39 PM, maxnut said:

As for other maps we are actually having some fun making a decent mapset but seeing how people reacted to this most of them will probably see who published it and ignore it.

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I will be the first to play and fully-endorse a well-made mapset from you guys. I'm sorry if this experience has made you feel discouraged and other people's post have definitely helped me shift my perspective on the matter somewhat. I highly encourage you both to take your time, polish it to the nth degree and create a thread for it when it's ready. That's the kind of thing I absolutely want to see.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Biodegradable

[Dark Pulse]

20 minutes for a map is just way too short. There's speedmapping, and then there's, well, speedsucking. Oblige could arguably make better maps than this - and that's saying something. Slapping some meme textures down does not automatically make your level cool.

 

24 hours is fine. 12 if you really still want to feel like you're "pushing it" while still giving you some time to create some relatively decent gameplay. 20 minutes is just way too little, even for Doom. That's what, five minutes for level layout, five for monsters, five for pickups, five for fixing? That's west of "jack shit."

 

Romero's fastest level was 6 hours, so that's proof that you can make a good map in a reasonably short amount of time. Twenty minutes is not "reasonably short."

Edited August 3, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[Shepardus]

  On 8/3/2022 at 5:26 AM, Dark Pulse said:

20 minutes for a map is just way too short.

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Last year we had Tenth Gear, a community project of 10-minute maps, and Half Moon, the same idea but 30 minutes. And I unironically believe MAP12 of D5DA (one of several 5-minute mapping projects) to be one of the greatest maps ever created for Doom.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Shepardus

[Ludi]

This is just depressing. @baja blast rd. suggested reporting wads like this, and I think just suspending members who do this shit is a well-warranted deterrent for this chicanery. 

 

  On 8/3/2022 at 5:59 AM, Shepardus said:

Last year we had Tenth Gear, a community project of 10-minute maps, and Half Moon, the same idea but 30 minutes. And I unironically believe MAP12 of D5DA (one of several 5-minute mapping projects) to be one of the greatest maps ever created for Doom.

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With all due respect, I don't think this is the hill you want to die on. Defending this is a catalyst for more threads of pointless bickering and squabbling over whether a WAD deserves to have a spotlight. In this case, it certainly does not. I'm not terribly sorry if that hurt's OP's feelings.

[Shepardus]

  On 8/3/2022 at 6:12 AM, Sr_Ludicolo said:

This is just depressing. @baja blast rd. suggested reporting wads like this, and I think just suspending members who do this shit is a well-warranted deterrent for this chicanery.

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Did you miss this part of rd's post?

 

  On 8/2/2022 at 9:20 PM, baja blast rd. said:

This wad though is more like Noye, D5DA, thisssux, etc., actually playing some of it, so would not fit into that above category.

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This thread would be perfectly fine were it not for the posts calling for it to be shut down. So you could, you know, just not do that, and there'd be no reason to lock the thread. At most it warrants a split for all the nonsense.

[StodgyAyatollah]

As someone who has to sift through a crap ton of topics because something like 80-90% of what's posted here are wads I have zero interest in (UDMF stuff for example) I find the complaining in this thread comical but maybe I'm just wrong for not complaining in threads for stuff I'm not interested in.

 

EDIT: It felt inappropriate to comment here without at least giving the wad a shot. For 20 minute challenge maps they're not too bad. A little hit or miss for me but not nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be. I suspect a lot of the criticism wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the god awful textures. Looking forward to something with some actual time put into it and without all the memish crap.

Edited August 3, 2022 by StodgyAyatollah

[CBM]

  On 8/3/2022 at 5:26 AM, Dark Pulse said:

20 minutes for a map is just way too short. There's speedmapping, and then there's, well, speedsucking. Oblige could arguably make better maps than this - and that's saying something. Slapping some meme textures down does not automatically make your level cool.

 

24 hours is fine. 12 if you really still want to feel like you're "pushing it" while still giving you some time to create some relatively decent gameplay. 20 minutes is just way too little, even for Doom. That's what, five minutes for level layout, five for monsters, five for pickups, five for fixing? That's west of "jack shit."

 

Romero's fastest level was 6 hours, so that's proof that you can make a good map in a reasonably short amount of time. Twenty minutes is not "reasonably short."

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I must admit that I have never used more than a couple of hours making a level... even my "best" levels ....

I should definetly try and use more time on making levels. I will try and use 24 hours on my maps from now on I think... something like maybe 1 hour per day in 24 days... might be 5 weeks since I have no time in weekends

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

  On 8/3/2022 at 6:30 AM, Shepardus said:

This thread would be perfectly fine were it not for the posts calling for it to be shut down.

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I skimmed through the thread and found about three posts asking for it to be shut down. A few people pretty much said "you probably shouldn't have posted this". Then you're comparing them to a member that was banned for calling people slurs and being a dick in general all the time, insinuating he was banned for complaining about a wad. Most people here are saying "it sucks", not "it shouldn't be allowed". I don't think it should be removed, or locked, and I don't think people should be discouraged from sharing their opinion. Telling people to "just ignore it"? Good luck with that. When you create a stupid wad on purpose and give it an attention-whoring title, this is what happens. Nothing you can do to change that. If you removed the posts calling for it to be banned, you'd still be left with four pages of "it sucks", with a few "the gameplay isn't that bad" comments.

 

It reminds me of the Hell Revealed 3 thread, where people questioned the decision to give the wad such a title, discussing the ethics of it, only for other people to come in and say "this is psychotic, they're losing their minds over a title!!". In reality, it was just people losing their minds over the fact that people didn't like something.

[Dark Pulse]

  On 8/3/2022 at 5:59 AM, Shepardus said:

Last year we had Tenth Gear, a community project of 10-minute maps, and Half Moon, the same idea but 30 minutes. And I unironically believe MAP12 of D5DA (one of several 5-minute mapping projects) to be one of the greatest maps ever created for Doom.

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I can respect this, in a sense, and I don't want to knock anyone's efforts, but I still believe that by and large that's just too little time to do anything more than a fast layout, quickie item/monster placement, and that's that.

 

Are there exceptions? Absolutely. Are they common? Absolutely not.

 

The sorts of people who can make a really good and memorable level in 30 minutes or less are very rare breeds of people indeed, who have found ways to make the gameplay shine despite the severely constrained resource of time.

 

They exist, but you can probably count them on two hands.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[maxnut]

  On 8/3/2022 at 3:28 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

1- Would you like to show me where I said that your wad should be removed from the forum? I don't even believe in the whole "ignore it and it'll go away" deal, this is a discussion forum.

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oh, i thought you were one of the people that said to delete the thread, oops my bad. anyways i don't really mind people saying that this is bad, this is shit, i get that, but i still think it should not be removed.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

  On 8/3/2022 at 9:57 AM, maxnut said:

oh, i thought you were one of the people that said to delete the thread, oops my bad. anyways i don't really mind people saying that this is bad, this is shit, i get that, but i still think it should not be removed.

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It's all good buddy. Thank you for clarifying that. Obviously it's up to the mods to decide what they want to be removed, but I don't mind any thread that has so much discussion going on. I'm not someone who is going to complain about a thread getting too much attention - there are plenty of threads that get bumped for no reason, and plenty of threads that serve no real purpose that people post in a lot. All that means is that people are talking about something, and that's good. Even if a thread itself is pointless, good conversations can still take place. My first threads on Doomworld were "let's put emojis on DOOM enemies" and a pornographic story about John Romero's head that I got a warning for, but nobody remembers that. So don't feel bad. People will judge your projects individually, forget about the stuff they don't like, and move on. That's what I was trying to tell you in regards to your future project.

[mrthejoshmon]

  On 8/3/2022 at 10:16 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

...a pornographic story about John Romero's head that I got a warning for, but nobody remembers that. 

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Links or it didn't happen...

 

For posterity, of course, posterity.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

  On 8/3/2022 at 12:09 PM, mrthejoshmon said:

Links or it didn't happen...

 

For posterity, of course, posterity.

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I haven't learned how to gain entry to Post Hell yet.

[Andromeda]

  On 8/3/2022 at 10:16 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

"let's put emojis on DOOM enemies"

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I remember that, good thread.

[DoomeSlayerrx61]

Dude this was a really fun wad keep up the work okay??

[Doomkid]

  On 8/2/2022 at 9:20 PM, baja blast rd. said:

Yeah when someone posts STARTAN boxes of revenants with no exits or "jokewad I spent 10 mins on, it's a jokewad because the stairs are broken haha" you should be reporting them. Average response time to a report is like 2-3 hours (it even has an alert), where if you make the same post in a thread you're just hoping a mod randomly stumbles across it, which might take 2-3 days, if it's noticed at all? (No one is actively seeking out uninteresting stuff to read lol.)  
 

From my familiarity with the report queue, the super low effort jokewads basically never get reported. Instead people opt to shout at the OP for multiple pages. That is a fine approach if you want the thread to clutter Wads & Mods for longer, but if you care about those threads not existing you should report them. 

 

This wad though is more like Noye, D5DA, thisssux, etc., actually playing some of it, so would not fit into that above category.

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I'm with rd, there's just enough meat on the bone to constitute an "actual wad" here. If we get too elitist with what map is and is not allowed, that's just an awful message to send - but "intentional troll crap" is still not gonna fly. This wad isn't that though, the authors have made their intent clear and haven't "wronged" anyone in any way.

 

Frankly, a lot of the posts that were split from this thread were older users picking on a newer user for the "crime" of ignorance, not to mention far too much backseat modding (please don't do that again unless you want my Timberlands up your poopchute).

 

I'm going to hesitantly reopen this thread, but it's going to need to be a lot more civil, ok?

[Ludi]

You're right, and I apologize for that. I'm sure this is as a result of a lot of questionable WADs coming out as of late, and this being the boiling point. The title screen probably set people off on this tirade. Regardless, that's not an excuse for shitty conduct, and I want to apologize to @angelomerz for contributing to that shitshow.

 

It shouldn't have taken mod intervention to call off the unneeded assault on a new mapper.  Looking back at what I said, I'm ashamed that I potentially could have discouraged someone from getting into such an amazing community. Angelomerz deserves all the credit for taking it as well as he did. 

 

I suggest everyone else apologize, in this thread or in PMs. 

 

Let's have this serve as a warning of what a lack of critical examination leads to.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Sr_Ludicolo

[K_Doom]

It seems I only arrive when the party is over. This is all very funny.

 

>be a new member
>create deep shit and call it Circumcision.wad
>create a topic about it
>they don't ignore the topic
>they don't report the topic
>instead they flood the damn topic
>have your notification bell bombarded by Bible-sized texts, gnashing of teeth and grumbles from old members

 

If your intention was to troll, you did it haha

Edited August 4, 2022 by K_Doom
Edit

[Redneckerz]

  On 8/4/2022 at 3:58 AM, Sr_Ludicolo said:

I suggest everyone else apologize, in this thread or in PMs.

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Since i was a main driver for the shit creek, my apology is equally due. Some flak rightly deserved, some others not, but that's to be expected.

 

Either way, my apologies for driving this up. In return ill do a better assessment and provide some more meaningful feedback.

[Shepardus]

I figured I'd write some more feedback since I've taken the time to play every map at least a bit, though I didn't record any more demos than the ones I've already posted (for reference: MAP10, MAP03, MAP06, MAP09).

 

On the texturing: Yeah, the textures are dumb, but you already know that. Worth mentioning, though, that they at least don't get in the way of gameplay. Switches look like switches, doors look like doors, and I can generally tell where to go without a problem. So from a functional standpoint, it's actually competently textured, even if aesthetically it's... well, you know.

 

I like the idea of theming maps around specific weapons. It lends the maps a conceptual bent that's good to have when mapping under such tight time restrictions, since you don't have much time for anything other than a bare concept. I think some of these work better than others, which is probably because some weapons are naturally more interesting than others. This is clearest with the BFG maps, where you have one map focusing on defeating hordes of monsters and another focusing on two-shotting cyberdemons, and with the rocket launcher maps, where you have a combat-focused map as well as a rocket-jump map. On the flip side, I don't feel like there's much to do in the pistol maps other than pray for good infighting RNG or spend several minutes plinking away at cyberdemons.

 

Some thoughts on each maps:

• MAP01 - Pretty standard infighting that recalls that one room in Tricks and Traps. It's tempting to spend time killing the mancubus on the ledge behind your starting position, but you have to be careful not to let the barons trap you there.
• MAP02 - The barrels at the start don't get much chance to shine in normal UV, but with fast monsters or Nightmare it's pretty ridiculous. :D
• MAP03 - This is the closest I feel the wad gets to a "combat puzzle," as the introduction is very cramped and you need to think about how to move in order not to get pinned by the enemies. Once you get past the hard part (which I think is when you manage to push through to the room full of hitscanners), however, cleaning up the enemies is a tedious affair.
• MAP04 - I like the idea of sniping the chaingunners and arch-viles from afar, though it feels underutilized here. Maybe it needs more arch-viles...
• MAP05 - Kinda easy but still fun to let loose with the plasma.
• MAP06 - The opening's annoying when doing repeat runs, as I found when recording my demo for this map. I already mentioned this in the text file of my demo, but unfortunately the last fight is easy to cheese simply by running back into the corridor. I think the arch-vile is the most interesting part of the fight when not cheesing it because it has a high degree of visibility over the fight but isn't easy to take out quickly with everything else going on.
• MAP09 - The most fun map of the WAD in my opinion. It's BFG slaughter which to some extent is automatically fun, but the map is also a good size that doesn't feel too cramped while also not being entirely trivial. I like how the imps appear behind you when you enter the second room, but since they're just imps they don't pose much threat. I think a higher-tier enemy would have been appropriate here.
• MAP10 - As far as BFG 2-shot gauntlets go, I like Time of Maps (tom19.wad) MAP11 and MAP31 more, but I'll take it. Not sure if Nightmare difficulty is possible for this map due to the instant reaction time and the movement freeze after teleporting - sometimes the cyberdemon shoots late enough that I can step out of the way, but I haven't been able to pull this off more than twice in a row.
• MAP11 - I think this one could have been more cramped to force you to manage space with the rocket launcher; as it stands it's too easy to run around and let everything infight each other to death.
• MAP12 - I don't have much to say about this other than that I suck at rocket jumps, but did get through this one with a bunch of keyframe rewinding.
• MAP13 - No idea what that thing is, but I'm happy to put it out of its misery.

Overall it's obviously unpolished, but the wad does have its moments. I look forward to seeing what you two create in the future.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Shepardus

[Redneckerz]

Keeping my word, i have played through the wad.

• MAP01: There is an idea and a setup occurring through infighting, ignoring the random new textures. What gripes me heavily is the player start: In the midst of a room full of Cyberdemons, you are ought to make due with a pistol.
• MAP02: The pit is actually a good start with monsters surrounding it - But the adjacent room feels devoid of creativity. The random Whatsapp texture passes a giggle for the sillyness though. I am observing a pattern where you bombard the player with Cybies - or in this case, Cybies targetting barrels. A potential death trap, yes. That bit could be used randomly in other maps though.
• MAP03: Ìts full of enemies but atleast this is passable to the point where you could see design taking over. Takes some getting used though.
• MAP04:`The overabundance of cybies is becoming a chore. I do like the Archivile and machinegunners, and found that, atleast on god mode, the amount of rockets pushed by the cybies allows for momentum to make some giant jumps - enough to land on the top towers. Maybe this was intentional, maybe it it wasn't, but i could see that put to use.
• MAP05: Yeah this didn't do much for me. Some rooms, and yet again full of cybers. MAP03 could work as a slaughtermap because it shows some effort at design. This however, does not.
• MAP06: Employing darkness is a neat trick and the hallway of cybies leading to the archvile almost feels like a rendition of shmup. But as you may guess by now, i don't like an overreliance on cybies to the point where its just there to kill you within seconds.
• MAP07: A giant hall full of enemies and somehow cybies can clip through? I dunno, it felt like a barrel of death, but rather not enjoying. There was also no trick or idea here so this map didn't do much for me.
• MAP08: I feel its a repeat of 05. Chockful of Cybers but no balance.
• MAP09: Atleast this carries on different floors of badasses that can come in time, so again, i feel design takes a steep up here.
• MAP10: Actually liked this one quite a bit because you do teleporter hopping. A shame the cybies cant teleport along with you, but i see potential for a better execution here.
• MAP11: Finally, a start when i don't instantly get eggshelled! Very much of the same, at this point you know what to expect, and you will die anyway.
• MAP12: Rocket Jump City. Atleast this looks the cleanest map of the bunch, there is a definitive sense of what you want to do.
• MAP13: Yeah no.

In sort, some little ideas are scattered here and there and i feel that if those ideas from each map are combined, you could get a fairly interesting single map. As it stands its 12 maps too many: All the ideas found could be put to use in one.

The only one thing i truly found distracting was the intermission text the last 4 levels or so, ranging from latin to coordinates. Perhaps it felt like an art project, but i saw no use for it.

 

So there you have it, some feedback for circumscision.wad. I hope many follow and you both take these for a level set where its not so much about placement, but rather, trickery.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Redneckerz

[maxnut]

  On 8/4/2022 at 7:50 PM, Redneckerz said:

Keeping my word, i have played through the wad.

• MAP01: There is an idea and a setup occurring through infighting, ignoring the random new textures. What gripes me heavily is the player start: In the midst of a room full of Cyberdemons, you are ought to make due with a pistol.
• MAP02: The pit is actually a good start with monsters surrounding it - But the adjacent room feels devoid of creativity. The random Whatsapp texture passes a giggle for the sillyness though. I am observing a pattern where you bombard the player with Cybies - or in this case, Cybies targetting barrels. A potential death trap, yes. That bit could be used randomly in other maps though.
• MAP03: Ìts full of enemies but atleast this is passable to the point where you could see design taking over. Takes some getting used though.
• MAP04:`The overabundance of cybies is becoming a chore. I do like the Archivile and machinegunners, and found that, atleast on god mode, the amount of rockets pushed by the cybies allows for momentum to make some giant jumps - enough to land on the top towers. Maybe this was intentional, maybe it it wasn't, but i could see that put to use.
• MAP05: Yeah this didn't do much for me. Some rooms, and yet again full of cybers. MAP03 could work as a slaughtermap because it shows some effort at design. This however, does not.
• MAP06: Employing darkness is a neat trick and the hallway of cybies leading to the archvile almost feels like a rendition of shmup. But as you may guess by now, i don't like an overreliance on cybies to the point where its just there to kill you within seconds.
• MAP07: A giant hall full of enemies and somehow cybies can clip through? I dunno, it felt like a barrel of death, but rather not enjoying. There was also no trick or idea here so this map didn't do much for me.
• MAP08: I feel its a repeat of 05. Chockful of Cybers but no balance.
• MAP09: Atleast this carries on different floors of badasses that can come in time, so again, i feel design takes a steep up here.
• MAP10: Actually liked this one quite a bit because you do teleporter hopping. A shame the cybies cant teleport along with you, but i see potential for a better execution here.
• MAP11: Finally, a start when i don't instantly get eggshelled! Very much of the same, at this point you know what to expect, and you will die anyway.
• MAP12: Rocket Jump City. Atleast this looks the cleanest map of the bunch, there is a definitive sense of what you want to do.
• MAP13: Yeah no.

In sort, some little ideas are scattered here and there and i feel that if those ideas from each map are combined, you could get a fairly interesting single map. As it stands its 12 maps too many: All the ideas found could be put to use in one.

The only one thing i truly found distracting was the intermission text the last 4 levels or so, ranging from latin to coordinates. Perhaps it felt like an art project, but i saw no use for it.

 

So there you have it, some feedback for circumscision.wad. I hope many follow and you both take these for a level set where its not so much about placement, but rather, trickery.

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wait... on what difficulty did you play? ultra violence doesnt have cyberdemons everywhere its how it was supposed to be played even tho its kind of bad to block off other difficulties

Edited August 4, 2022 by maxnut

[Redneckerz]

  On 8/4/2022 at 8:19 PM, maxnut said:

wait... on what difficulty did you play? ultra violence doesnt have cyberdemons everywhere its how it was supposed to be played even tho its kind of bad to block off other difficulties

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One of the lower ones, i can't remember.

[maxnut]

  On 8/4/2022 at 10:03 PM, Redneckerz said:

One of the lower ones, i can't remember.

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yeah, the lower ones are filled with cyberdemons (as stated in the original post). they are intended to be played in uv, since any other difficulty is impossible, but you already played them all and wrote a pretty big description so if you really want you could very quickly check them out on uv but if you don't want it's whatever.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

As a tip, if you're wanting to force the player to a specific difficulty level, make sure you have something on the other difficulty levels that is guaranteed to slay them right off the bat. Otherwise it can lead to confusion and the player won't have the intended experience. This is not a tactic I'd recommend overall (spamming monsters on lower difficulties to coerce the player to switch to UV), but I suppose it can be used appropriately in a jokewad.

Edited August 5, 2022 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[YoshizinGordin]

I Have A Feeling This Thread Will Be Locked After The Next 4 Replies.

[Andromeda]

  On 8/5/2022 at 6:25 PM, YoshizinGordin said:

I Have A Feeling This Thread Will Be Locked After The Next 4 Replies.

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What are you on about?

[Stupid Bunny]

  On 8/5/2022 at 6:30 PM, Andromeda said:

What are you on about?

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I don't know either, pay him no mind

 

I decided like others here to do the due diligence I should've done initially and play the maps.  They're definitely...well some of them were much more manageable than others.  I actually kinda liked the one where I started out in a corridor of barrels and had to (heh) barrel out before I got blown up by the beasties flinging stuff at me.  Also the one with the two symmetric platforms that have stairs up onto them, that one was actually pretty fun (even if I sucked at it.)  Most of the maps are crowded, definitely a bit of a clusterfuck but at the same time not as haphazard or random as I expected them to be--I was anticipating 1337.wad-style monster spam, but it actually felt like there was some amount of thought put into the actual layouts of the maps, even if the thought was cursory and not subject to much testing.  The custom graphics are fine, they definitely scream "shitpost" (as, yes, was the intention) but honestly if you built out some "serious" maps and put these kinds of dopey meme graphics around everywhere I would enjoy the hell out of that.  

Edited August 5, 2022 by Stupid Bunny

[maxnut]

  On 8/5/2022 at 5:17 PM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

As a tip, if you're wanting to force the player to a specific difficulty level, make sure you have something on the other difficulty levels that is guaranteed to slay them right off the bat.

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we did just that. if you start the wad on anything other than uv, there are cyberdemons literally everywhere. the maps are impossible on lower difficulties

[Stupid Bunny]

  On 8/5/2022 at 8:01 PM, maxnut said:

we did just that. if you start the wad on anything other than uv, there are cyberdemons literally everywhere. the maps are impossible on lower difficulties

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I'm gonna guess that @TheMagicMushroomMan had archviles on his mind, and even if he didn't that's what I would go with if you insist on it (still would advise against it on a more earnest mapping project, although you do you and all that).  Even a horde of cybies are still somewhat avoidable, and after all these years we're not alien to situations where cyber-armies are something we actually need to deal with.  Replace them with archies though and the player simply dies instantly, no matter what you do you're a lump of charcoal pinned to the ceiling within seconds.  That's how you telegraph to the player "this is not meant to be even remotely possible."

Edited August 5, 2022 by Stupid Bunny