The Power Rankings: TNT: Evilution

[General Roasterock]

Map 29: River Styx

 

  Very few IWAD levels exist with the extent of cruelty that River Styx presents. Even Plutonia’s worst struggle to keep up with the strange methods of brutalization that this map creates. There are clearly attempts to be a very tough and memorable penultimate challenge, but the execution is questionable at best.

  There is one huge issue that is apparent past the opening stretch: health and ammo are nonexistent. It took me several attempts to complete the map with any ammo left in my weapons, and this was mostly done through extensive hoarding and backtracking to skipped Shell Boxes. Rocket ammo, despite being designated for several Arch-Viles and higher classes of demon, is not plentiful, and expected to be dumped into a Spider Mastermind ineffectually. The worst offender of this issue, however, is the amount of Plasma this level gives the player. The problem that arises from this is not the amount of ammo, but the fact that there is zero weaponry that uses it on UV. There is a Plasma Rifle on HNTR, but this gun does not show up for the other two skill distinctions. There is no backpack to allow for the ammo that is in the map to stockpile, there is no weaponry that uses Plasma despite the level filling you to standard capacity throughout the run, and most of the supply is hidden in areas that can easily scrape the player across the floor. 

  Stability in health suffers from this as well. Crucial powerups are off in odd, sometimes unreasonable, positions, and the only sources of armor are the singular Green Armor in a “secret”, the Megasphere tucked away in a pillar that I never found on any of my runs, and seventeen bonuses. The rest of the damage has to be tanked through Soulspheres in optional areas or secrets, or the capped off Medikits that are spread around the harder areas. Attempting to use this supply to fight Mancubi, Barons, Arch-Viles, and Revenants is difficult to say the least, and that’s not including the way this map is constructed and how the fights progress. This tension restricts a map that should have a couple different paths for weapons and supplies into a linear track for survival.

  The visual coherence is the best area of River Styx’s success. It’s an establishment of a civilized Hell, producing a uniform structure that feels natural in comparison to something like Heck that lacks consistency. That being said, this map strikes one note, and doesn’t do anything to expand upon it. Nearly the entire thing is lined with green marble and molten rock. None of the lava flats are damaging, despite their being ample walkways to avoid trekking on it for the most part. A specific issue I’ve always had with the use of molten liquids like these is that their light level normally varies in levels like these, despite the flat itself logically being the brightest light source in the area, and River Styx is no exception. It teeters on keeping a successful motif, but it doesn’t expand, and a handful of the usage is downright confusing.

  The difficulty of this map is a fantastic synchronization of depravation of supply and the insanity of the monster placement. The level starts with a tunnel filled with Lost Souls and Pinkies, and anyone looking to save ammo will likely skip the Lost Souls, getting shredded by chip damage and boxed out by the Pinkies in the process. The west path in the central lava hub does nothing for progression, instead leading you straight into a pack of Chaingunners and even more Lost Souls, then followed up by an Arch-Vile at the end of the hall. This Arch-Vile will have no problem resurrecting the beefier foes that you’ve killed down the stretch, as it has no other space to travel. There’s one room off the path of the north hallway that leads to a room that feels ripped out of a more recent WAD, stuffing a tiny space with Hell Knights, Revenants, Cacodemons, Pinkies, and even more Lost Souls. Attempting to take the room head on is suicide, as the Rocket Launcher is the only weapon that’s fast and strong enough to clear out the heavier threats. Thankfully, every monster can simply be shelled from the corridor leading up to the room, which is built in a way to seal you in if you walk too far forward. This takes what could be the hardest fight in the WAD and makes it incredibly easy, save the possibility of a Revenant missile rushing down the pipe.

  The entire Red Skull segment is a bunch of square rooms, but it’s structured in an entertaining way. Being able to take on the Arch-Vile on the balcony at leisure is intelligent, and I even liked the Mastermind reveal from behind the marble walls, even if it could be locked in place with a singular Lost Soul and was expected to be killed by several dozen rockets. The grid structure was well offset by the routes that could be taken, including the teleport pads and elevation changes. This only leads to the Yellow Skull arena, which is a handful of Mancubi and a single Arachnotron providing ground cover for a turret Arch-Vile and Baron. This is the spot where ammo will likely start getting tight, almost to the point of no return if the lowerable columns aren’t apparent supply caches, and they absolutely are not apparent. The Baron in the turret can tank rockets and is easily revived by the Arch-Vile, acting as a huge ammo sink in an area where there’s nearly not enough ammo to finish the map already. The teleport that leads to the Skull is for some strange reason slightly off center, so attempting to be smart and telefrag the Baron is hard to get right. This only leads to the final stretch, which is started off by a Pain Elemental. If you remember how many Lost Souls have been scattered about the map, then you’ll know that good movement can make this Pain Elemental completely harmless. Here it only acts as noise propagation to allow for a teleport closet to tunnel into the tiny group of rooms, which includes yet another Arch-Vile that can easily escape out the back and revive one of the Mancubi in the previous arena. Thankfully on HMP, this Arch-Vile is replaced with a Mancubus that is not only much slower and would require a much longer walk to its trigger, but is also too large to fit in the closet itself. Everything past the Red Door is a mess. 

  I like the implementation of Death’s Bells here. It helps with the arid hopelessness that this map causes, for better or worse. It still suffers from the Evilution staple of being too short for the expanse of the map, but it does enough to hold the atmosphere.

  River Styx is bold, a leap in aggression that has no opponent in TNT, and few in all of commercial Doom, but it’s difficulty is cheap, grating, and requires a level of dedication to overcome that isn’t earned through what merits it does have.

[Alfonso]

I warned you.

Worse map balance in official doom ever.

Even worse than E4M1.

Proof that pistol starting is not always enjoyable or better than continuous play.

Look at this poor guy 

Every single UV Max demo i see, shows the player running out of rockets ammo with little to no shotgun/chaingun ammo at the end.

Was this wad even playtested?

What the hell TNT Team?

Edited November 3, 2022 by Alfonso

[ChopBlock223]

9 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

River Styx is bold, a leap in aggression that has no opponent in TNT, and few in all of commercial Doom, but it’s difficulty is cheap, grating, and requires a level of dedication to overcome that isn’t earned through what merits it does have.

I think the reason I never felt it this harsh is because I only ever played this map continuously.

Which isn't an excuse for bad Pistol Start-ability, of course.

 

7 hours ago, Alfonso said:

I warned you.

Worse map balance in official doom ever.

Even worse than E4M1.

I love E4M1, it's harsh but doable, and the map just isn't very long so I think it can be tolerated.

 

Quote

Look at this poor guy 

I love that thumbnail.

 

EDIT: The video was also a ride, a slow ride, but an interesting one. Repeated strokes of poor luck and cruel fate (the ghost fatso is probably the worst possible outcome), met with resolve and good improvising.

He's a good enough keyboard only player I kept forgetting he wasn't using a mouse.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by ChopBlock223

[General Roasterock]

2 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

I think the reason I never felt it this harsh is because I only ever played this map continuously.

  Less relevant to a pistol start run, but it's true that this level is very easy after rolling through thirty other maps of ammo. It's effortless to come into River Styx with a full BFG, which wastes no time leveling any of the fights for a Skull, and it makes the plasma littered around the map useful. There's no reason to save any bullets beyond this map, as Last Call throws every weapon at you in the first hallway, with more than enough supply to get through. Therefore, it's borderline encouraged to blast every Arch-Vile, Revenant, Mancubus, or the like with a round of superheated cells. It's kind of damning to the whole unknown order of maps argument if River Styx was always going to be this challenging on it's own.

  Also, BeefGee is great, very skilled for the limits he's under, and a great voice to add to the chaos.

[ChopBlock223]

It's by all means bad design. I wonder actually if the Plasma Rifle being tagged to only appear on Skill 1 is actually intentional, or if it's an oversight akin to Pharao's key lacking any tags at all. I think the level would probably play much better with the simple change that is adding that Plasma Rifle to higher skills.

[LadyMistDragon]

Yeah, I think I liked Shipping/Respawning better than this and that was a mess in it self. But yes, it's just so painful to play from pistol start and kind of feels like most Jimmy Sieben maps, to be perfectly honest, just a little more action-forward.

[ChopBlock223]

On the other hand though, Jimmy Sieben also made Stronghold, and that level kicks ass.

[Foodles]

I wanted to start off by saying I’ve really enjoyed reading your write-ups. Like yourself I appreciate long form in-depth analysis of maps, with Demon of the well coming to mind as one of the chief proponents of this style of content. What I’ve been doing is trying to play the maps myself then reading what you have to say about the level to see if I agree or missed anything.

One thing that I seem to value is a level’s ability to create a coherent environment that projects the idea of being a “real” place – or at least a space that is cogent and believable. Maps like 23, 13 and 17 are among my favourites for this very reason. On the other hand, maps like 20 and 27 I really dislike because they seem to be all over the place with their theming. I think that what TNT does well is to create a sense of going on a journey through somewhere (usually a techbase), being able to explore and piece together the locale in your mind to end up with something that’s satisfying and consistent. I just wish we had a little bit more of that consistency in some of the later maps.

As an aside, I noticed that Dario Casali has very recently uploaded a playthrough of Evilution. Might be interesting to see what he has to say about the project considering that I believe he created some of the maps – in particular to hear his thoughts about map31.

[ChopBlock223]

He seems to not be that big of a fan of most of the levels.

[General Roasterock]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:48 AM, Foodles said:

One thing that I seem to value is a level’s ability to create a coherent environment that projects the idea of being a “real” place – or at least a space that is cogent and believable. Maps like 23, 13 and 17 are among my favourites for this very reason. On the other hand, maps like 20 and 27 I really dislike because they seem to be all over the place with their theming. I think that what TNT does well is to create a sense of going on a journey through somewhere (usually a techbase), being able to explore and piece together the locale in your mind to end up with something that’s satisfying and consistent. I just wish we had a little bit more of that consistency in some of the later maps.

  My favorite thing about TNT's visual presentation is how fresh some of the maps feel in the pool of IWADs. You can boil down Doom II's levels to episodes, or Plutonia down to an imitation, but TNT is really hard to classify in one sum. Sure, it has a lot of levels that are mostly vanilla texture techbases, but I can at least clearly tell the level of ambition that the team was shooting for. It is very present in the expanses. I actually do agree with the majority of those picks on account of how the gameplay went (except for maybe 23 since it never felt like it had a chance to evolve), but now I can align with how those maps stay consistent in visual theming as well. I think the big thing about the O'Brien saga was summed up pretty well by BeefGee, where he explained that any idea that O'Brien had would go into his map, no matter how it fit, or didn't, into the overall experience. That is made very apparent. 

[General Roasterock]

Map 30: Last Call

 

  In an attempt to make the Icon of Sin a level, and summate the visual quality of a demonic beachhead, Last Call falls flat on its face. It is a handful of landmarks connected by empty space that lead up to a Boss Brain fight that is even easier than the original.

  Enthusiasts of the color brown will rejoice upon entering Last Call, as this map is nearly entirely made up of a singular brown brick texture that wraps the opening in its entirety. This texture eventually changes up to a singular green marble wall after the first teleport, but this lack of any visual presence or variety blends into a horrid concoction when combined with how large the scaling of this map is. It makes every room, every fight, every instance of engagement feel hollow, as if there are crucial pieces missing to the cycle. 

  The first thing this map does is decide to dump every weapon at the start and then task the player with a memory puzzle in the now infamous torch platforming section. Memorizing this many torches is a hassle that is ultimately surpassed by muscle memory, or simply using the automap, but the punishment of instant death is incredibly harsh, even if it’s the only feasible technology at the time. What’s most surprising is that the ideas for the map only get worse, as the next two rooms are lifeless Rocket spam against less than a dozen monsters each. The former is a handful of Revenants stuck in huge alcoves where they have a very easy time dodging projectiles and covering each other with cheap missiles to the back. The latter is a sprinkling of Cacos and Pinkies guarded by a Cyberdemon that will likely spend most of its time behind a wall, removing itself from being a threat. Even so, there’s more than enough ammo to tear him apart with relative ease from a great distance. Both of these areas feature switch moving technology that moves slow only to allow the monsters enough time to attack, and they end up wasting time for people that are quick enough at the combat, or wait until the room is cleared before triggering anything. Separating the two fights is a singular Shotgunner and a Door that is locked by a switch that sits some hundred units in front of the door. There’s no key requirement, it’s not embedded into the wall, it’s just a switch that sits in the middle of the room that opens the door that’s directly in front of it. I don’t have an explanation for the implementation, it’s simply inefficient and confusing.

  The marble corridor leading to the Icon is quite nearly pathetic. For people who don’t care for kills, it’s a straight shot past some Lost Souls to a Teleporter. Everyone else will have to work their way through the eight incredibly tight windows to shoot a random pairing of species in cages for each one. The chance for infighting is low since the only way these monsters can see you is if you make an effort to be visible, which is also required to fight back. The cages are too far back for the SSG to have a tremendous effect, so the only good option that doesn’t waste cell ammo, once again, is the Rocket Launcher, which now has the extreme risk of slapping the side of the window and dealing heavy self damage. It adds nothing to the challenge of the level, demolishes the pacing of the last stretch, and hides half of the placed monsters for reasons that can only surmount to a lack of understanding of the monster tally’s interaction with an Icon mechanic.

  The boss itself is very cockeyed. It doesn’t immediately wake up when the player teleports into the room, as the spawner is out of sight of the teleport pads. It’s possible to make it all the way to the switch that raises the accessible stairs before the boss even spots you. There’s a singular Cacodemon floating freely in front of the wall, possibly such that the sound of killing it awakens the spawner, but this will be done no matter what in order to get into position for the kill on the boss. Two barons protect the platform at the top of the stairs, easily dispatched with BFG, leaving whatever gets spawned by the Icon to crawl across the floor or briefly live at the upper elevation. It’s very easy to mow down anything that spawns in with the BFG as well, provided that cells were saved, but the amount of rockets in the room is more than enough to handle anything that comes through. The Icon itself is a downgrade from Doom II, placing the brain on a flat platform parallel to the entrance instead of putting it out of the way of projectile damage. There is no timing mechanic, dealing damage only requires that the player stand on the stairs at the correct height to line up a rocket properly. It doesn’t even line up the textures correctly, as the place where rockets can enter the Icon’s skull is actually its opaque forehead, and not the giant gap at the top of its cranium. I could not imagine the thought process it would take to mess this up. The only real difficulty with the boss is how easy it is for a monster to wander around in the courtyard to mess with autoaim, which is normally an issue that resolves itself. There’s not even a satisfying explosion at the end because the brain is too far back into the wall for the effects to appear. It’s so disappointing for a map that is meant to be an improvement on technology to create an inferior Icon of Sin, all preceded by a mile of mediocrity. 

  “Into the Beast’s Belly” cements its unfortunate associations at Last Call. It is once again far too short for a map that is ultimately spread very wide and requires a deal of foot travel. The matter simply stands: this song is brash and annoying.

  The only thing that saves this map from being pitted is the creative stroke of the torch puzzle, allowing for more mappers to be exposed to the idea of challenge that goes beyond combining bullets and demons. Every other aspect lacks direction, cohesion, aesthetic value, or even any evidence that it was audited for fun. It is damage dealt to the Icon of Sin as a concept, and an incredible downer to end the WAD on.

[Foodles]

11 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

Map 30: Last Call

 

 

So now that you're done with the wad what are your final thoughts? Would you reccommend someone who was getting into Doom to play or skip this?

 

I do think that a lot of the fondness I, and many others, have for these levels is due in no small part to nostalgia but having said that I would argue that there are some legitimately good and enjoyable maps in the set even if they are sadly outnumbered by the not so good offerings.

 

Did it deserve to be an iWad? I would say yes but I think there definitely needed to be a final layer of quality control applied to iron out some of the wrinkles and maybe even fully replace some maps e.g. Habitat.

[General Roasterock]

4 hours ago, Foodles said:

 

So now that you're done with the wad what are your final thoughts? Would you reccommend someone who was getting into Doom to play or skip this?

In short, I feel TNT is critical for those who want to play Doom for the long run. It is through and through an experience that can't be replaced, and I feel that having a handful of maps that don't meet a great gameplay bar only allows for better work to be highlighted with its spirit. I would recommend it less valiantly to those that have no intention to map, because I feel most of the expertise that TNT can provide goes towards the dos and don'ts of that field, but it's impossible for me to turn it down.

 

I'll have a longer form of saying that whenever, now that I'm coming out of a Master's semester.

[Andromeda]

17 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

Map 30: Last Call

 

  The marble corridor leading to the Icon is quite nearly pathetic. For people who don’t care for kills, it’s a straight shot past some Lost Souls to a Teleporter. Everyone else will have to work their way through the eight incredibly tight windows to shoot a random pairing of species in cages for each one. The chance for infighting is low since the only way these monsters can see you is if you make an effort to be visible, which is also required to fight back. The cages are too far back for the SSG to have a tremendous effect, so the only good option that doesn’t waste cell ammo, once again, is the Rocket Launcher, which now has the extreme risk of slapping the side of the window and dealing heavy self damage. It adds nothing to the challenge of the level, demolishes the pacing of the last stretch, and hides half of the placed monsters for reasons that can only surmount to a lack of understanding of the monster tally’s interaction with an Icon mechanic.

The author had the foresight to make the monsters teleport into the final arena if you skip them. In hindsight he shouldn't have bothered, since because it's a MAP30 they will unfortunately telefrag each other :(

[Thelokk]

1 hour ago, General Roasterock said:

It is through and through an experience that can't be replaced

 

Framed and hung on the wall. Couldn't have said it better. 

[LadyMistDragon]

It is curious that you call Last Call "spread out" when everything that's not the torch puzzle really doesn't take too long. "Into the Beast's Belly" is actually a great fit for a final map, with the main problem being that it was used in 2 other maps that didn't remotely deserve it. But it is pretty clear that audio fidelity at this point simply wasn't at a point where Leo could make the feedback-heavy sound conventionally good.

 

Also, it's probably just me but the Icon of Sin is enough of a poor idea that anything that makes it easier is fine by me, quite honestly. Shooting rockets into a wall is idiotic, especially when you can't even tell where the rockets are supposed to end up like say, Plutonia 2's Map 30 or something. Judgment was probably one of the better implementations of it because it wasn't just shooting at a wall.

 

At the same time, I definitely think the design of this map could have been greatly improved with some time in the kitchen. The combat definitely feels a little too much on the inchoate side of things to say I actually like the map. I still think the design shows some potential though.

[General Roasterock]

20 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

It is curious that you call Last Call "spread out" when everything that's not the torch puzzle really doesn't take too long.

I don't mean spread out like the fights are too long or redundant, but rather that the physical rooms themselves are so large for what they house. The room with the Cyberdemon is as large as the Icon arena (an arena that is meant to account for a damn monster spawner), and it barely makes it to half a dozen demons if you include the Cyber itself. There is no need for that much space to fight Pinkies, especially for a map that gives you every weapon up front, continuously stocks them, and gives the mapper's greenlight of "go nuts" for its population. 

 

26 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Also, it's probably just me but the Icon of Sin is enough of a poor idea that anything that makes it easier is fine by me, quite honestly.

I'm a big Icon sympathizer. I thought it was a great way to end Doom II with such a changing of pace to present this mastery of visual presentation, and there are certain iterations a la Epic 2 that are familiar enough, yet greatly improving on the concept. TNT does neither, and implodes on features of the Icon that made it so unique. 

 

17 hours ago, Andromeda said:

The author had the foresight to make the monsters teleport into the final arena if you skip them. In hindsight he shouldn't have bothered, since because it's a MAP30 they will unfortunately telefrag each other :(

Humbling. I never knew this was here, and it makes the map so much easier on a revisit. Perhaps if I skipped them in the past then I never noticed them teleporting? The method isn't foolproof, but it works. I'll consider this further in the future.

[General Roasterock]

Summary: 

 

  TNT is an incredibly rocky and unpredictable product that mostly serves those with malleable imagination. It is expressly focused on achieving atmosphere beyond the scale of Doom II, and succeeds primarily in its soundtrack and scale, disregarding a lot of the action that made its foundation successful. Stronghold, Nukage Processing, and Hanger are amongst the exemptions from the norm of Evilution, teaming with freeform yet intelligent outlets of flow, but they are still outliers in what is majoritively a levelset without pacing. The difficulties of managing such an expansive team are presented front and center. There is no definitive change in theme for the majority of the WAD, difficulty in terms of direct combat challenge and implementation is all over the place, bugs and softlocks are uncommonly present, the texturing has aged considerably more than Doom or Doom II, and Drake O’Brien did what was the equivalent of a hit and run on the WAD. All these can be problems by themselves, but the licensing deal to put the WAD in Final Doom makes the flaws that were already displayed in the community at the time for free inexcusable. If we believe what Mark disclosed in his video, then the entire team received $38,925 for the WAD (adjusted for inflation for today, that’s $76,253). Thus if we make the assumption that this amount was divided evenly, an assumption that is lofty and doesn’t account for any members outside of mapping, but entertaining to make nonetheless, then this means Christopher Buteau got paid $1,769 for Habitat. Don’t even bother making the comparison with the modern game industry, because you’ll just become sad. 

  I know the meme is 22-25 for TNT’s dire straights, but I would honestly argue that the bad patch starts at Mill, or even Dead Zone if you skip the secret maps, and the set never fully recovers. Those who enjoy the treks and are able to excuse the lack of engagement will have a positive time, but half of the WAD is below par for the average community release nowadays, and Prison, Dead Zone, Baron’s Den, and Administration Center are truly bottom of the barrel. This spread is enough to make TNT a must play on one’s journey of WAD experience. Moving from something like the sedentary progression in style of Doom II, or the mass of blocks and pain of Plutonia, to something as wild and unpredictable as Evilution could do nothing but inspire. Many authors I subscribe to have cited its noncongruent setups as reason to venture into the directions that have created some of my favorite maps. I could think of no better place to start in commercial Doom to spark ideas of expression.

  It’s impossible for me to say that I hate TNT, as anyone who has played the whole thing through at least six times (one continuous UV, three pistol start UV, one pistol start HNTR, one pistol start HMP with the MIDI pack, not counting if I died and had to repeat anything) should only be either classified as Evilution’s biggest fan, or committed to a ward. As badly made as some of the longer outtakes are, I never had a point where I wouldn’t let myself move forward, and if I could remove the memory of Stronghold from my mind just to play it again, I would do so in a heartbeat. I guess the best way I can describe TNT is like a history class: there’s a lot of argument to be made about what exactly is important, there are differently aged processes of thought that are much better to analyze than experience, and, if you’re a math or science guy, then it’s likely to bore the shit out of you. Nonetheless, those that fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it, and I couldn’t think of a better lesson beyond id’s golden boys than Evilution. 

  When it comes to direct interpretation, however, TNT appears as lightning in a bottle. Myriads of Plutonia clones and spiritual successor exist, all as the same twist of metal sewers, backdoor traps, and jungle debauchery. Sets that claim to be of Evilution’s blood can only do direct homage in order to stake a claim in the IWAD’s history. That could be a point towards generic map design, but I feel it is a kind of mapping that goes in the complete opposite direction and becomes impossible to recreate. Revilution and Devilution (as of its current release) are mostly unique products, either being completely fresh ideas coated with edits of O’Brien’s DaVincian masterwork texturing, or embedded far enough in reference to cause a double take. I couldn’t name another mapset that achieves this exact balance of gem to jank, preserving a fresh identity.

  It is really easy to be hyperbolic when it comes to Evilution, it’s almost asking for it. Bad PR with the id Software deal damaged its reputation right out of the gate, and the scale of the maps can feel braggadocious without any other context. I think TNT: Evilution is fine. I doubt I’ll be replaying it outside of proving a point to someone, but the time I’ve had wearing it out is not soaked in regret. I now understand its position in the lengthy history of Doom, and am glad it exists for others. I feel that’s the most positive way I can sign it off.

[ChopBlock223]

I think that's quite well put. I'm betting Dario Casali shares a number of these sentiments, he definitely had a rough time through a lot of TNT, and it seemed to have reawakened some memories about creative differences. Thank GOD for creative differences, no matter what one feels about TNT (and there's many understandable feelings people exhibit towards it), it's all worth it in the end for Plutonia.

And the music.

[General Roasterock]

Bumping this thread one time without prompting just to express my appreciation for everyone sticking with it. This is my ideal way of observing maps like this, and I'm glad that it's something I am not alone on to the point where it's worth mentioning in the Cacowards (bless up @rd). The obvious question is what's next from here. My goal is to have a video as a hyper digestible version of the ranking itself since it's another good angle of what I think off the cuff, and I feel the format is unique enough to brand well. I have no idea which WAD I would like to do for this next (not Plutonia). My knee jerk is Eviternity, but that just puts me on track for doing the entire Dean of Doom lineup, and frankly I don't want to play Community Chest. I'll happily consider suggestions here.

 

That being said, here's the whole point of this thread to begin with.

 

The Power Rankings:

Spoiler

1. Stronghold
2. Storage Facility
3. Nukage Processing
4. Hanger
5. System Control
6. Caribbean
7. Power Control
8. Ballistyx
9. Heck
10. Processing Area
11. Shipping/Respawning
12. Metal
13. Steel Works
14. Pharaoh
15. Lunar Mining Project
16. Redemption
17. Open Season
18. River Styx
19. Deepest Reaches
20. Human BBQ
21. Wormhole
22. Last Call
23. Mill
24. Mount Pain
25. Central Processing
26. Crater
27. Habitat
28. Prison
29. Quarry
30. Dead Zone
31. Baron’s Den
32. Administration Center

 

I will have one more post for the video, should that come to be, and that will be it. Thanks again everyone for your time. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by General Roasterock

[Thelokk]

8 minutes ago, General Roasterock said:

• Baron’s Den
• Administration Center

 

Hey, Baron's Den is not last! That's gotta be a first. You made a map's day. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Thelokk

[Xyzzу]

This pleases the baron who owns the den.

[Screamapillar]

Wow, I haven't read whole thread originally, so I was really surprised when you put Stronghold as No 1. I really dislike that map, it's absolute pain for me. I do however like that you put Heck in top 10 - I feel like it's a really good map, and my favourite from last third of mapset.

Also, Baron's Den is not worst? I have to finally play Administration Center to confirm it for myself, huh.

[Asbadagba]

On 1/11/2023 at 5:27 PM, General Roasterock said:

 I'll happily consider suggestions here.

random suggestions:

eternal doom
hell to pay/perdition's gate
no rest for the living (or any other official mappack)
hellevator
skulltiverse
1994 tune up
bloodstain
sigil
solar struggle (doom 1)

[dt_]

Thanks for this, I've enjoyed reading this thread as you have created it; Evolution is my favourite IWAD even though it has its ups and downs.

 

I'd be interested in reading about your thoughts on some of the more classic megawads such as Alien Vendetta, Requiem, Memento Mori and even Plutonia.  Maybe even some of the more modern classics such as the BTSX series

[Azure_Horror]

Thank you for this thread, @General Roasterock!

 

I think, the best second WAD of choice would be Eviternity. And after that, go in some wild, unexpected direction, like Nihilty - Infinite Teeth, Doom -1, Antaresian Reliquary, Judgement, Tarnsman Projectile Hell, Zone 300/400 or 1000 Lines Community Projects (3rd is a caco winner, so it is arguably the most well-known).

 

Why Eviternity? Because Eviternity is in awkward spot with its standing. On one hand, Eviternity is reputable, high-quality and influential WAD. On the other hand, it is a shiny popular WAD, which everybody knows. Essentially, Eviternity lies in a pit between Influential Classics and Doom Comfort Food. It absolutely deserves deep study and discussion, but most players do not do that for some reason. Maybe some of them think that Eviternity is too normal (normie?) for that. It will be cool to dispel this notion.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Azure_Horror

[General Roasterock]

Ok, for the actual second to last unprompted post, here's the demo pack I promised of all my recorded attempts at these levels. Feel free to either collect what you want or scrutinize how I'm playing the maps as a form of critique as to how they're actually meant to be handled and how I could've possibly lost an important detail with my playstyle. Thank you for the suggestions, a lot of these WADs are on the infinitely dense backburner of "things I need to get to" and their idolization will likely help me play those maps faster. 

 

I'm about a third of the way through a script, in an environment that should allow for a better output. I'll put a time limit on myself and say the end of the month. No backsies.