Advices and inspirations for decorating upper parts of walls

[Arwel]

Hi, I have a problem with walls in my maps, especially tall ones, especially in outdoor areas: they look really flat and boring.

I have some ideas how to improve which I'm already implementing, but something I struggle with a lot, is those upper parts.

I feel like I don't really understand the "anatomy" of this part of wall and what is allowed and not,

if you have any tips, advice or just references to wads doing great job here, I would be very happy to see them.

 

 

[Nefelibeta]

Basically the key is to create more contrast, you can try making pillars, stack lower/upper sectors with different textures, add decorative icons/lights and stuff like that. Pretty straightforward, but also time consuming.

 

I don't really recommend having ceilings that are too tall in a relatively tight space, you can try lowering them, and decorate the ceilings instead. Having rectangular rooms will also make decorating process longer.

 

However, there isn't really a stable way for learning how to do decorations. I suggest taking a look at your favorite maps and how they make themselves pretty. Ribbiks maps are my prime examples of making maps pretty without extending the work time.

[Lucius Wooding]

First of all, looking at references of cathedrals or castle architecture or anything else can be a great way to get ideas. Some of it is hard to pull off in doom but you can be pretty versatile with the basic features if you experiment a bit. Even being a bit abstract can be more visually striking than going for realism sometimes. I'm assuming you're mapping for a limit removing type of port and not including vanilla compatible or advanced features.

 

These shots already look pretty good, it's clear you're putting work into detailing them. I can offer a couple ideas though:

 

-In general people tend to overthink textures and decorations when the geometry they draw and lighting make a much bigger difference to making a scene feel well composed and interesting. I usually prefer to build visual features out of sectors when possible and limit my use of the stock decorations and wall textures so I have more control. 

 

-It doesn't look like what you're going for here, but keep in mind structural damage and neglect can be really atmospheric. A couple fallen bricks, cracks, some chewed up pillars and maybe a leak or two can add a lot of personality. It can be a fun aesthetic to work with and fits with many styles of maps.

 

-In realistic stonework, most corners will have supports built in. Same goes for anything that overhangs; it will need pillars or supports to hold the weight. Most doorways and passages will be arches rather than square. But remember, you don't need to go crazy with a billion sectors to make a smooth arch, it only needs to be as detailed as the stone texture. It can be a little blocky and simple, or fantasy architecture, it's Doom.

 

-On taller walls with limited visual features, it can help to just raise up stuff like torches and banners so it's more in the middle. Supports and little niches cut into the wall that extend to the top will also break up the visual and make it seem less flat, even if there's minimal details. Experiment with this kind of thing to draw the player's eye and affect the sense of scale, it's very subjective what works in a given instance.

 

-This goes for almost any kind of map, you can make a narrow trim sector protruding around the base (and if it reaches the sky, match it from the ceiling for symmetry if desired). It can be pretty much the same texture but just make a few rows of bricks jut out a few units for a height of 32 for example. You could also change the texture to something a bit different to give it a bit of variation. Very cheap effort wise, and one of my go-tos for adding some detail to a room. It's not necessarily realistic in this case based on real buildings but it looks right. This is also a great way to cheaply add more than 3 types of texture to a wall if you make the sector very thin. I think you used something like this for the baron face already.

 

-In realistic stone buildings, torches are not necessarily gonna be exposed to the rain; they'll often be sheltered above and to the sides a bit in a sconce or something. As long as your ceiling reaches the sky you can either place them on a pillar with a gap between floor and ceiling, or cut a gap into the wall. This is also a stylistic thing but it gives you the chance to build the light sources more ornately instead of placing bare torches. It will also ensure less clutter if they're all off the ground, nobody likes being stuck on decorations. Bonus points for using a cage or mesh mid texture to protect it as well. And definitely experiment with lighting effects built around the light sources, even if you overdo it and it gets cheesy it can look really cool and make the design pop. Finally, I think places like staircases and walkways would have more torches than bare ground for safety's sake, so consider building lighting into pillars or walls along them to cast light into those areas.

 

-For the upper image:

Spoiler

Something like these will work for overhanging walls, though you'd probably want to make them blocky and more spread out. As long as the gray brick ceiling in the first image extends to the sky, you could build a few of these into the overhang without a ton of work and it'd look much less empty in the upper part. I'd also place a couple pillars or extend the ones along the brown staircase since it would help the structure look more realistic if that's what you're going for. Support pillars will hide the gray ceiling a little bit more and give you a good base for lighting and decoration. It looks like all you'd have to do is just rework the existing sectors too.

 

I'd also consider making battlements, just some basic blocky variation in the top edge can imply there's more going on up there. It might be a bit tricky depending on how things are built though. Or you could place a couple small windows even if there's nothing behind them. It's typical design in a castle for soldiers on the walls to have a clear shot at every inch of outdoor area around it, as well as courtyards on the interior in case the gates are breached.

 

I like where your head's at with the baron face as well. Building into the wall a little bit is usually better than trying to put extra decorations inside the room.

 

 

 

-For the lower image, I think spreading out and raising what's already there would work fine. Extend the pillars to the ceiling with a small gap in the middle for the torches, raise the banners and add a bit of lighting and it'd look like a million bucks I bet. 

[Arwel]

Thanks, that's a lot of useful ideas! Raising some of these pillars/columns all the way up is something I haven't thought of yet but I already feel it's a great idea. Placing torches into the walls is something I think I've never done before and I will definitely try. These supports for overhanging walls on photo look very simple, but there are so many they look like a single whole. In Doom when they're blocky and sparse I think I need some special effort to make them look interesting. I'm pretty sure I saw some sparse multi-level/layer overhang supports in some WADs, but I don't remember where. I also saw something very nice in this regards in screenshots of custom Quake maps, but it will be also tricky to find (and most of it probably not going to work without full 3d anyway).

[Lucius Wooding]

I think for the overhang supports it'd be fine to make clusters of sectors (maybe like a dozen sectors or so each) at appropriate heights, or even just single plain cubes or rectangles in a repeating pattern. For something on a large scale at a distance like this, it can be fine to simplify if it ends up giving off the right idea. Experiment a bit and see what works, you'll come up with a style that fits well. 

 

A good example of a simplified version might be from the classic Going Down's Black Mass (Map 16), although that's a much more eclectic set of textures. Note the red brick pillars on the right as they reach the ceiling. It's pretty blocky since he goes with the large brick texture, certainly you could build a bit more detail if what you're using is smaller. But even this kind of simple step pattern where the ceiling meets the wall will make the ceiling a lot less flat and make the building a bit more grounded. His design work on his levels is pretty solid and uses nearly all stock assets for this wad so it's worth checking out. It may seem a bit simple but in the context of playing it you don't notice due to the massive amount of enemies. He clearly doesn't go insane trying to make smooth archways but every level has its own distinctiveness.

Spoiler

Edit: This is by the same guy (Mouldy/Cyriak) who recently made Overboard which is currently all the rage in the Doom scene.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Lucius Wooding
Plug Cyriak's new map

[nrofl]

Ive always found the power of MIDTEX usage to help detail areas from above. You could also do hanging decoration pieces (Just spitballing ideas I havent seen anyone else talk about here)

[Stabbey]

I had similar problems with bland ceilings in my "Nukage Treatment Pools" map. I asked Bridgeburner about advice, and he suggested adding beams. So I did that, adding some beams into the area which has the blue key at the end, and I tweaked the ceilings in the central arena.

 

You don't need to go too hog-wild on it, but a few places which have interesting ceilings can make a difference.

 

So

[Arwel]

While experimenting with overhang supports I've also reminded myself a trick of extending support past the edge and extruding some volume on the front face of overhanging wall, something I now remember seeing a lot in WADs. Picking textures for those is at the moment feels very tricky for me, spent a lot of time, still not very happy with result, but I think it at least doesn't look that flat anymore.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Update:

Way better now imo

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Vrhrlv

[nrofl]

5 hours ago, Arwel said:

 

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That looks far better. Good work!

[Stabbey]

See, it doesn't take much to add some visual interest.

[Lucius Wooding]

Yeah it's very much the same scene, but a lot richer composition wise. The dark inverted cross textures look kinda mean and the reworked brown brick wall is more imposing and filled out. Nice job.

[SilverMiner]

Make indents where orthogonal walls cross. It should add some volume to your rooms.

Also

Use something like imgbb.com to post images cuz Doomworld has a limit for attachments. Copy the image into clipboard and ctrl+v it at imgbb.com (it'll make it upload), then copy the link you get into a text editor (notepad)

<a href="https://ibb.co/L6gr7yh"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/2PMS4rY/image.png" alt="image" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>host site</a><br />

the link at

img src="https://i.ibb.co/2PMS4rY/image.png"

is what you should copy and paste in doomworld. You'd briefly see an underlined blue link which then will be shown as an image.

[Shanoa]

15 hours ago, Arwel said:

While experimenting with overhang supports I've also reminded myself a trick of extending support past the edge and extruding some volume on the front face of overhanging wall, something I now remember seeing a lot in WADs. Picking textures for those is at the moment feels very tricky for me, spent a lot of time, still not very happy with result, but I think it at least doesn't look that flat anymore.

 

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Update:

Way better now imo

 

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Way to go, that looks great!