I decided to finally try pistol starting maps. I think I get it now.

[Yasha]

Lemme be clear: I'm not very good at doom. At all. The only UV I'll be running is the original IWADS--on basically anything community-made, it's either HMP or HNTR for me. I, like most casual players of Doom, usually ran continuously, but I watch so many much more highly-skilled people do pistol starts that I thought I might as well try it myself. So, I'm now trying to pistol-start HNTR Sunlust (still savescumming between fights though). I have a few main thoughts on the matter:

 

-Pistol starting is MUCH harder on average. I've played Sunlust before and got to map 8 on HMP, playing continuously and with saves. On this pistol start HNTR run, I had to spend an afternoon on map 5 and map 6 right now is absolutely destroying me. I can't even get 30 seconds in without getting obliterated thanks to this WAD's intentionally suffocating architecture where every square inch has demons tearing me apart.

 

-On the other hand, pistol starting is so much more freeing--I don't have to stress about saving ammo or health for the next map, since I'm always starting on a blank slate. I can burn all my resources in fights and it's certainly more engaging. Having to enage with the level from the start instead of carrying over 20 rockets and 200 plasma and just facetanking fights has made me appreciate the design of each encounter, and the level's design as a whole. Having to desperately fight to get a SSG, or rocket launcher, or plasma gun, instead of just carrying one over previous maps makes getting each one feel way more impactful.

 

I'm gonna keep plugging away at it, and also maybe switch from GZDoom to PRBoom or some other more performant source port because damn GZDoom chugs sometimes and I heard that its RNG gives you lower damage overall than Boom's RNG. It's driving me crazy how many 3-SSG Revenants and Cacodemons I encounter when in most youtube videos you only need 2 shots to take out either of those enemies, for instance.

 

The only problem I see with this is that I was already struggling to complete maps on HMP in most WADS like Sunlust, the Stardates, AV, Scythe, but I know many WADS don't really support HNTR so I guess I just have to grind and stop being bad at the shooter game.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Yasha

[RHhe82]

37 minutes ago, Yasha said:

 

-On the other hand, pistol starting is so much more freeing--I don't have to stress about saving ammo or health for the next map, since I'm always starting on a blank slate.

This is the most important reason I started doing pistol starts exclusively. It frees the player to use all the resources at hand in the map and not be distressed when finishing the map with zero ammo and 1% health.

 

Most custom maps are designed to be completeable with pistol start anyway. I feel that entering the level fully stacked might trivialize or make a map start too easy. Pistol starting IWAD maps breathes new life to them; E3M8 doesn’t become a great level, but at least it’s no longer pushover.

[Ludi]

Like you said, I love pistol-starting because you can just chill out and not worry about resource conservation. Going balls out with your remaining ammo at the tail end of a grueling map is intensely satisfying.

[Lucius Wooding]

I think it makes the early encounters of a map much more interesting in most cases, can force you to explore new maps to try and find a foothold, and definitely makes for more of a meaningful progression between weapons. From a standpoint of designing individual maps, it removes a lot of variables and lets you scale fights from milder to more difficult if you choose. Plus I'm never tempted to make early encounters a bit extra hard or withhold ammo just because the player might be carrying over a BFG with 5 shots. I used to play levels pretty mindlessly in Doom 2 and just bang through and it's fun in its own way, but I learned more about design and used much more strategy and routing since I started playing pistol start. In my opinion it lets you engage with the full challenge of each map; sometimes you can notice when the mapper is a genius and appreciate it.

 

Balancing around continuous when you don't know whether the player will go for all kills, find secrets, or purposely stockpile is a nightmare. I just supply ample ammo (especially bullets and shells) in general and assume a pistol start, and let continuous play exist as a way to make things a bit easier if the player chooses. Weapons as rewards are really nice and carry more weight if they're a direct upgrade. 

 

That said, Sunlust is no joke! I mean you go from the IWADs to that, even on HNTR with saves... Damn. It will no doubt teach you something about strategy but don't feel like you need to take the whole thing on at once. I had a hard time beating the first 12 or so maps on UV so far but I grinded each one until I figured them out. Eventually I'll return for the rest but my skills aren't there yet. Map 8 in particular is 100% a strategy map, my favorite in the set. It's punishing on mistakes but it demands clever approaches and good routing more than execution. Every inch of that map is built for a purpose. I didn't think I would be ready for any of Sunlust but I'm glad I tried playing it to get a taste. 

 

Spoiler

For something a little more of a breather (and 2 of the most highly regarded modern megawads), I'd definitely recommend Valiant and BTSX E1 on whichever difficulty you choose. They're both a bit more forgiving and will still help you improve, on top of being a feast for the eyes and a blast to play. Valiant in particular has a number of episodes that all have some shorter maps if you want to skip around a bit. BTSX is probably easier and a little less intense overall but it has its moments, like the final map. Both wads are a step up from Plutonia, but playing on lower difficulties is definitely an option. They're both fairly pistol start friendly.

 

Sunlust has some beatable maps but it's a great deal harder than those two for sure. Stardates are the same mapper and similar difficulty. Scythe goes from super easy to medium to pretty hard in the last 10 maps or so, particularly 29 and 30 (and I like that wad in general). I think AV is a very important wad but it's not considerate to the player's quality of life at all in the later maps. It still has some very good maps, but in this day and age there's heaps of stuff that's more fun to play. 

 

 

 

[Yasha]

I have finally beaten Map 06 of Sunlust. Took some routing to figure out. A quick check of youtube shows that the HNTR version isn't that far off from the UV version. Huh. Map 07 went down easily afterwards, though I think I should go back and get all the secrets to do the showcase fight.

 

I also finally figured out that ZDE apparently can handle any source port, so I gave PRBoom+ a try! It's very weird going from GZDoom with the Beautiful Doom mod, but I've adjusted and I think I'll make this my personal source port of choice--not the least because Beautiful Doom breaks on any WAD with custom stuff and I wanna play Valiant, Ancient Aliens, and whatever other mods that feature custom enemies I want to.

 

^ Thank you for the suggestions. I haven't actually completed any of the official Doom IWADs yet--let's be real, Doom 1 and 2 are...rough to put it lightly. E1 of Doom 1 is great but E2 drops like a goddamn lead balloon after the first two maps. Doom 2 is just a wonky mess in general. Put them against Sunlust, Valiant, Ancient Aliens, both Scythes and they don't look too hot both visually and gameplay-wise. I haven't even tried TNT or Plutonia, but honestly, I do have them, so I think I will give them a go soon. I've played various wads from Stardate 20X6 to Scythe to Alien Vendetta, but I've never really gotten past map 8 or so of anything. I'd like to finish a megawad eventually, so I'll set my sights on doing that.

[sandwedge]

Hey that's awesome!  I played continuous for awhile because I just found that much more fun and forgiving, and it was the way the original game was designed to be played, after all.  For me what actually flipped the switch in my mind was when I got to Rush in the skill improvement thread, which was sort of an introductory slaughter wad.  I played through on continuous but I could clearly see that the fights were designed for a pistol start, and that continuous allowed me to sort of brute force through some tricky looking, meticulously designed combat puzzles.  It felt like I wasn't actually getting the most out of the design of the wad, so I went back through with pistol starts and haven't looked back since!  Now I absolutely love the thrill of searching for your arsenal each and every time you load up the map - you get rewarded for every little find, and it makes starts and ends of maps (getting to use all your ammo) a lot more interesting and satisfying.  Plus, most stuff will be designed with pistol start in mind because it's the easiest to balance and test.

 

The thing is, I only did it once I felt good enough at the game that it was FUN.  Sources like the skill improvement thread will tell you that it's designed with pistol start and UV in mind or whatever, but imo it doesn't matter.  Whatever makes you have more fun at the game will get you to play more maps and more varied maps, which will naturally get you better at the game.  And it's about having fun in the first place, after all.  Don't burn yourself out playing pistol start out of a feeling of necessity - ESPECIALLY wads like Sunlust, even on HMP.  That gets absolutely insane later on, and while I haven't seen it on HMP, since you said you can't play much outside the iwads on UV I would guess it's going to be a real agonizing crawl for you.  But hey, that's only my personal view so maybe you're up for the challenge - I streamed it pistol start on UV knowing it would turn into an absolutely insane challenge at the edge of my skill level, but it was fun to overcome.  Good luck on your Doom journey!

 

edit: I just noticed you saying you've yet to complete a megawad, and you named some really great ones, but they're all fairly hard.  I might recommend the Doom Skill Improvement thread for a smoother increase in difficulty from the iwads: 

It's not perfect at all, but I used it for quite a while and had a blast with stuff that was within my skill range.  All of those are great wads.  Eventually I got up to Ancient Aliens and once I got there I felt like I could skip around to other stuff - like Sunlust. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by sandwedge

[Shanoa]

I'm still trying to "get it". Considering a lot of the PWADs already feel challenging with continuous I can't even imagine doing any of them with pistol start. Just feel like it will fall into frustration territory over being fun.

 

I suppose I could remediate that by playing some of them on HMP but...not sure I wanna do that.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Shanoa

[Gougaru]

If nothing else, pistol starting really allows you to really experience what a map has to offer.. promotes exportation in some cases and the pay off of finding a stronger weapon is just a fantastic feeling. A fight after picking up a new weapon is also always a great adrenaline rush. All of those feelings are just buried a bit when you don't pistol start.

[Clippy]

Pistol start for life 💪

[BonciuADV]

This thread inspired me to do a pistol start run in Doom 3, so every time when I enter a level I only get the fist and the pistol, no saves. It actually builds up the tension and makes you use the environment and barrels FOR THE FIRST 2 ROOMS. Then you get a chaingun or something incredibly OP. I gave up at EnPro because it was pretty much identical to a normal run. I had 330 ammo for the chaingun before the first encounter with an imp in the dark in Alpha Labs 2 and 75 shells. The game throws too much ammo at you and too little enemies to make up for it. 

[Shanoa]

On 8/26/2022 at 2:07 AM, sandwedge said:

Hey that's awesome!  I played continuous for awhile because I just found that much more fun and forgiving, and it was the way the original game was designed to be played, after all.  For me what actually flipped the switch in my mind was when I got to Rush in the skill improvement thread, which was sort of an introductory slaughter wad.  I played through on continuous but I could clearly see that the fights were designed for a pistol start, and that continuous allowed me to sort of brute force through some tricky looking, meticulously designed combat puzzles.  It felt like I wasn't actually getting the most out of the design of the wad, so I went back through with pistol starts and haven't looked back since!  Now I absolutely love the thrill of searching for your arsenal each and every time you load up the map - you get rewarded for every little find, and it makes starts and ends of maps (getting to use all your ammo) a lot more interesting and satisfying.  Plus, most stuff will be designed with pistol start in mind because it's the easiest to balance and test.

 

The thing is, I only did it once I felt good enough at the game that it was FUN.  Sources like the skill improvement thread will tell you that it's designed with pistol start and UV in mind or whatever, but imo it doesn't matter.  Whatever makes you have more fun at the game will get you to play more maps and more varied maps, which will naturally get you better at the game.  And it's about having fun in the first place, after all.  Don't burn yourself out playing pistol start out of a feeling of necessity - ESPECIALLY wads like Sunlust, even on HMP.  That gets absolutely insane later on, and while I haven't seen it on HMP, since you said you can't play much outside the iwads on UV I would guess it's going to be a real agonizing crawl for you.  But hey, that's only my personal view so maybe you're up for the challenge - I streamed it pistol start on UV knowing it would turn into an absolutely insane challenge at the edge of my skill level, but it was fun to overcome.  Good luck on your Doom journey!

 

edit: I just noticed you saying you've yet to complete a megawad, and you named some really great ones, but they're all fairly hard.  I might recommend the Doom Skill Improvement thread for a smoother increase in difficulty from the iwads: 

It's not perfect at all, but I used it for quite a while and had a blast with stuff that was within my skill range.  All of those are great wads.  Eventually I got up to Ancient Aliens and once I got there I felt like I could skip around to other stuff - like Sunlust. 

Despite my previous post I admit I got curious and checked that thread out. I think I'll give it a try. I never really did any run of the IWADs with pistol-start so that's gonna be a new way to experience them. Plus, honestly, since I came back I feel more inclined to go with mappers intentions when they release something new. I used to ignore recommended ports, pistol-start and whatnot but changing my approach has made thing interesting and I believe is more respectful. I really enjoy the feel of DSDA doom so i'm using this atm, instead of the usual Z family of sourceports. I've been playing DOOM for 25 years yet I keep finding new ways to refresh my enjoyment of it.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Shanoa

[Lippeth]

Whether or not I pistol start depends mostly on how the previous map went, how much health I have and what the beginning of the current map will throw my way. On average I'd say I pistol start about a third of any particular mapset using IDCLEV. Maps that have goodies at the end will keep me going continuous, or I may change ports halfway through and have to warp to the level I was on in the other port. Sometimes I just want to play one map because I like the song it uses, anything goes really, and I don't put too much thought into it. Plus I think I always pistol start the first level. At least half the time.

 

2 hours ago, BonciuADV said:

The game throws too much ammo at you and too little enemies to make up for it.

Ah, the BFG Edition, an individual of culture I see. (No shade though, I know I lambast it from time to time but it's totally playable, OG Doom 3 arguably has too much ammo as well)

[Sectorslayer]

On 8/25/2022 at 4:25 AM, Yasha said:

On the other hand, pistol starting is so much more freeing--I don't have to stress about saving ammo or health for the next map, since I'm always starting on a blank slate. I can burn all my resources in fights and it's certainly more engaging. Having to enage with the level from the start instead of carrying over 20 rockets and 200 plasma and just facetanking fights has made me appreciate the design of each encounter, and the level's design as a whole. Having to desperately fight to get a SSG, or rocket launcher, or plasma gun, instead of just carrying one over previous maps makes getting each one feel way more impactful.

Exactly. 

[Llednar]

Speaking about pistol-starting IWADs, I got into pistol-starts fairly recently, and I personally disliked pistol-starting Doom 1. A lot of maps turned into "first 1-2 minutes are really hard, but everything after is almost as easy as continuous playthrough". Some of the maps also place weapons so that the player needs to know it beforehand and immediately run there, ignoring everything on the way. I probably dislike E3M4 the most in this regard(even though I like this level in other aspects), pistol-start there is really weird and requires doing some very particular things. I definitely feel that Doom 1 was made with continuous playthrough in mind first, and making pistol-starts possible was an afterthought.

Doom 2 is way better at making pistol-starts flow naturally.

[spineapple tea]

This thread inspired me to start playing pistol-start recently. I've tried some more disconnected mapsets like Nova and Community Chest (and maybe the Master Levels if I feel like it), but even just trying to get through Doom 2 has been drastically different. Maps are now much harder due to not coming in armed to the teeth beforehand. MAP12 is usually a pushover with an inventory of rockets, but now I'm running around searching for weapons and ammo (which has now also pushed me in the direction of UV-maxing maps hoping to find secrets with weapons). Pistol-starting has also taught me to not care too much about dying since I already came into the map with nothing, so all I've lost is time (and if I was concerned about wasting time I wouldn't be playing Doom in the first place). Hopefully playing pistol-start also helps players improve quicker, but that's more of a longterm effect I'm hoping to see.

[Soulless]

On 8/25/2022 at 4:25 AM, Yasha said:

Having to enage with the level from the start instead of carrying over 20 rockets and 200 plasma and just facetanking fights has made me appreciate the design of each encounter, and the level's design as a whole.

Indeed, Its been a long time since I switched from continuous to pistol start UV, I enjoy megawads much more now.

This way you play as intended and you can appreciate the mappers design choices.

I regret playing continuous Eviternity or Ancient Aliens, but with time managed to make it through Sunder and others pistol start.

[magicsofa]

On 8/24/2022 at 11:13 PM, RHhe82 said:

This is the most important reason I started doing pistol starts exclusively. It frees the player to use all the resources at hand in the map and not be distressed when finishing the map with zero ammo and 1% health.

 

This makes no sense at all. You can just die in the next level and pistol start anyway.

[RHhe82]

32 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

 

This makes no sense at all. You can just die in the next level and pistol start anyway.

I guess you could do that, but when I played continuous, I wouldn’t want to have to lose weapons or backpack, which might not even be on offer every level. In any case, continuous play would steer me to avoid using resources, if I suspected I’d be needing them more on the next level.

[DuckReconMajor]

3 hours ago, magicsofa said:

This makes no sense at all. You can just die in the next level and pistol start anyway.

 

You do you but i'm not losing all the ammo/weapons i brought from the last map just because of a rough start

[magicsofa]

1 hour ago, DuckReconMajor said:

You do you but i'm not losing all the ammo/weapons i brought from the last map just because of a rough start

So instead you lose all the ammo/weapons you brought automatically. I'm confused

[DuckReconMajor]

Not always, but talk of casually playing continuous usually implies saving. Just reload the save until you make it to some health.

Playing continuous also makes you invested in seeing the same "character" make it all the way through the mapset

[RHhe82]

28 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

So instead you lose all the ammo/weapons you brought automatically. I'm confused

 

Personally I feel the difference stems from the mindsets. With pistol starts, resources are restricted at the start of level, but I'm free to use everything at my disposal freely, since they'll be gone by the next map.

 

In continuous I have more freedom at the start, but towards the end of the map I start planning beyond the current level; I might hold on from picking up a megasphere, because it might be useful to pick it only prior to exiting so as to start the next map with 200/200. Moreover, at the end of the level I usually do clean up and collect every piece of leftover ammo to prepare for the next map. In pistol starts, such scrounging can be omitted without any consequence whatsoever.

[magicsofa]

I get the idea. I just think it's funny that people are so sucked in to these behavior patterns. If you don't want to scrounge for ammo, then don't! The difference doesn't stem from the mindset, it is the mindset. That's the only difference between obsessively loading a save where you had 5hp, and accepting defeat and having a fresh start at the level. It is also the difference between squirreling away every last clip, and just saying no (to drugs). If you were gonna just IDCLEV all that stuff away, why not play continuous and just stop worrying about it? If you can impose pistol start on yourself, why not impose a "restart on the first death" rule (so no saving until after death). But I get it... the strict consistency of restarting each level is appealing.

 

[Book Lord]

It have no problem playing either way, though I generally prefer continuous play for MegaWADs that have a story (pistol starting breaks the immersion) and to shorten play time, which is a frequent requirement for people like me who do not have many hours per day to invest in gaming. I understand the charm of pistol starting maps that are tightly balanced and are supposed to be played that way.

 

However, being wasteful with (or using liberally) resources is a mindset that has nothing to do with pistol starting vs playing continuous. I will always conserve ammo, switch to the appropriate weapon, and avoid hits as much as possible, because it is part of the game as I enjoy it. Not dodging because there's plenty of healing, wasting rockets on fodder just because I have plenty, or using only the SSG to avoid the downtime to switch to the single barrel, are not for me, regardless of the way I am playing. It is possible to do so, I see a lot of people playing that way, but I cannot see myself taking a hit I could avoid or waste ammo I could save. It also assumes that I know what lies ahead, including the resource balance, and I am not playing the same level twice very often.

 

I also believe that when you need proper routing, foreknowledge, and strict strategies to beat a map, you are playing a game that looks like Doom but is not the action/survival FPS game of the origins. I can understand the appeal of everything the modders have done in decades, but I always come back to the kind of action that made me love the game in 1995, when I received Doom as a Christmas gift.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Book Lord

[TuomasGaming]

I just play DOOM for fun. I'm not trying to be the best.

[baja blast rd.]

Yeah the appeal of pistol starting is that it makes every map its own little microcosm, where every weapon pickup feels potentially substantial, where the progression arc can become extreme and nuanced -- from humbled, harried beginnings to a juggernaut within the same map. There's also the value of constraint. A slightly more limited arsenal tends to feel more varied to use, tactically, than having every single weapon. And that can be true of a very limited arsenal, particularly offbeat combos like with the berserk, or something like SG / RL. 

 

Sometimes in these threads people insist that others only ever pistol start for The Challenge, and if not for that everyone would play with carryovers, but that is a very tunnel-visioned and dumb way to look at it imo. There is a lot more to the game than "How hard something is or feels," a lot more that can differ based on settings used.  I pistol start on maps that have a 1/10 difficulty and in anti-combat adventure mapsets, and the character of pistol starting is very much retained there.  

 

I sometimes think of continuous play as an "extra challenge" mode for a wad I've already played, especially difficult wads, where I can try to Ironman a stretch of it using the extra weapons and goodies to try to ensure hopefully near-100% survival. Resource management like having to plot out "okay exactly where should I use these excess BFG shots?" is a fun element of strategy with that constraint. It doesn't account for a lot of my play, but it's cool to have the option. Trying to beat a long carryover stretch (like several maps) in a challenging wad without dying can be as tricky as beating a single map from pistol start even if the individual maps are easier because of carryovers. That is due to conjunctive math. For example: beating 8 maps with a 95% success rate per map would be a (0.95)^8 = 66% success rate overall, which is a reasonably high chance of failure despite how consistent we are at each map. (And 95% per map is still pretty high with carryovers in harder wads.)

 

Also related, the idea that "pistol starts vs. carryovers" is a significant part of the "hardcore vs. casual play" equation is imo as silly as "no saves vs. saves."  Ultimately a playing philosophy has possibly *dozens* of details potentially informing it, and pistol starts v. carryovers / saves v. no saves is each just 1 detail out of many. And often not even close to the biggest detail. 

 

I just play DOOM for fun. I'm not trying to be the best. So I usually play casually with pistol starts instead of doing hardcore record D2ALL runs. :> 

[out_of_service]

Play the game however you like! It's all good. I tried pistol starting, but it's just not my bag of chips. I prefer continuous play and that's mint for me.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Piper Maru

[Wyrmwood]

Back when I used to play continuously I used to try and exit at 200% health and Armour and with as much ammo as possible. I'd normally re-start and practice levels if I got to the exit and had less than 100% health. Think it was a stupid hang up from playing the PSX version and chasing perfect passwords.

 

Anyway it was boring compared to pistol starts, play how you like but pistol start all the way for me. I actually use the ammo instead of hoarding, I enjoy using my head more, employing more infighting and having to find secrets to have enough supplies whilst not worrying about the next stage.

[Scypek2]

I wish more wads/mods implemented a middle ground, where you only retain some stuff, so that finding goodies can have lasting consequences, but also there's no point in hoarding things. The one big example of it is Hexen and Heretic - the items stick around, but the majority of them have to be used up or they're gone.

[Yasha]

Well, I am reporting back. I have been trying Valiant on HMP as well as Sunlust, and given a few other WADs a shot. Valiant is a hoot, though damn No Rush gave me quite a bit of trouble. After that it was mostly smooth sailing. I am on Map08 right now, which is honestly pretty damn brutal --the beginning is tough but I got a plain, but that insane chaingunner gauntlet right afterwards is...uh, I dunno how tf you're supposed to do that.

 

As for Sunlust, I am on map 12 now. 06 fell once I consulted Decino's playthroughs. 07 passed without much of a challenge, and 08 had me stuck again in that wicked blue key cyberdemon fight, where I had to consult Decino's playthrough for a strategy again. Sometimes I think "damn, Ribbiks, I'm not THAT bad" but he always manages to pull out a fight that knocks me on my ass like that one and I understand that even on HNTR this wad is not to be fucked with. Interestingly, sometimes the skill difference between HNTR and UV is pretty marginal (map 06 is practically the exact same) and sometimes it's goddamn huge.

 

I've also tried Heartland on HMP, though I'm so stuck on a certain fight that I think I may have to restart map01 entirely, I dunno how tf I'm getting out of this one. That WAD is nuts--I kinda wish we had more WADs that used these kinds of advanced features that still focus on "classic" style gameplay. It's really either super gimmicky GZDoom wads or purist-style Boom ones, it seems. Since I have the Eternity engine now I will definitely give HMP Eviternity a shot too. PRBoom+ is now my preferred source port and I'll save GZDoom solely for gameplay mods and maps that require it. I'm a doom purist now :V I plan to do HMP Scythe 1 and 2 soon, as well as giving HMP Haste a shot. I gave TNT's first three maps a spin--not that hard, though 02 requires some tedious backtracking. Plutonia lies in my folder, taunting me. Terrifying.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Yasha