New take on why classic sprites are hard to translate to 3D

[Koko Ricky]

These images sum up a lot of what makes Doom's sprites challenging to 3D-ify. This Sonic 3 sprite is built from pure sprite art, has less detail than Doom's sprites, and relies on classic rounded cartoon forms. 

 

Being that Doomguy's color depth and detail is significantly higher, along with the base being a digital scan, there's less room for interpretation into 3D. There's also the fact that he isn't proprtional--giant head and very long arms--which looks fine in small scale 2D, but when directly translated to 3D, is awkward. 

 

In conclusion, the unique approaches id took to crafting sprites, specifically enemies, creates a unique challenge to 3D modelers that has only really worked in the last two Doom games due to their modern engines. For this reason, voxels are ideal, and it's clear why the voxel mod being worked on is pretty unanimously praised. 

[Ludi]

I can see myself realistically using the voxel mod, while I find the Doomsday engine models rather uncanny. Pretty cool to see an explanation of this phenomenon :^)

[The Nate]

Actually, I think I've heard that Sonic's sprite in 3 is actually pre-rendered but it's so heavily compressed and post-processed that it looks all hand-drawn?

[Koko Ricky]

16 minutes ago, The Nate said:

Actually, I think I've heard that Sonic's sprite in 3 is actually pre-rendered but it's so heavily compressed and post-processed that it looks all hand-drawn?

 

There's enough similarity between the Genesis Sonic sprites that I believe they just reworked most of them for Sonic 3. However, the special stage for both 2 and 3 feature some pretty obviously prerendered sprites designed to look like traditional pixel art. 

[Snaxalotl]

I also think consistency helps, sprites don't necessarily have to have 100% consistent proportions while a 3d model does. So the voxel interpretations of doom 1 models have that constraint while trying to match the look of the original sprite frames. Which may contribute to some angles looking like they have odd proportions.

 

[Koko Ricky]

10 minutes ago, Snaxalotl said:

I also think consistency helps, sprites don't necessarily have to have 100% consistent proportions while a 3d model does. So the voxel interpretations of doom 1 models have that constraint while trying to match the look of the original sprite frames. Which may contribute to some angles looking like they have odd proportions.

 

The odd proportions come from the simple fact that sculptor Gregor Punchatz made the deliberate decision to make the human heads too big, as that allowed for more facial detail. The arms being too long works well for increasing clarity for poses such as holding a weapon. 

[lazygecko]

It's all about the abstraction in conjunction with our capacity for pattern recognition. The less pixels you have, the more interpretive it becomes. Generally we are pretty great at suspending our disbelief and leaving room for interpretation/imagination when the pixel resolution is low and necessitating exaggerated body proportions for readability, but looks weirder the more you scale it up while retaining the relative proportions (unless you work it into a very deliberate stylistic choice ala Warcraft or Street Fighter). This is a common issue with remastered game assets in HD that try to "respect the original vision" to a fault.

 

It was also something developers still tangled with in the early 3D days. I know there was at least one soccer/football game where the devs explicitly said they had to blow up the size of the player model hands and heads for the sake of readability in the distance at 240p.

[user76828904]

This video just popped in my mind when I read this post title.
 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by user76828904
fixing an error

[The Nate]

2 hours ago, Koko Ricky said:

 

There's enough similarity between the Genesis Sonic sprites that I believe they just reworked most of them for Sonic 3. However, the special stage for both 2 and 3 feature some pretty obviously prerendered sprites designed to look like traditional pixel art. 

https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?threads/sonic-3s-3d-models.38948/

[Ozcar]

If im not mistaken, the sprites of doomguy is made in clay.

[user76828904]

@Ozcar

 

[DannyMan]

HacX had a few enemies that are just 3D rendered, but in sprites, the Terminatrix for example. 

[user76828904]

@DannyMan Akin to some Duke Nukem 3D graphics?

Edited August 30, 2022 by user76828904
to fix image size

[DannyMan]

8 hours ago, user76828904 said:

@DannyMan Akin to some Duke Nukem 3D graphics?

Probably, however, we'll never going to know that because Banjo Software never uploaded high quality 3D render images of it.

[user76828904]

8 hours ago, DannyMan said:

Probably, however, we'll never going to know that because Banjo Software never uploaded high quality 3D render images of it.

That's a pity. A lost piece of HacX history.

 

 

And respect to the transition from 2D sprites to 3D models I have found this on the Mortal Kombat Wiki (https://mortalkombat.fandom.com/wiki/Mortal_Kombat_4#Gameplay):
 

Quote

 

As revealed in later interviews, programmer Ed Boon was particularly concerned with maintaining the game play feel of a 2D game but with 3D graphics. He at first was worried that there was some intrinsic property of 3D graphics that would make this impossible. Essentially, the major game play difference between 2D and 3D fighting games of the time, was that up to that point all 3D fighting games had attempted to somewhat simulate realistic martial arts. One of the reasons this was done was to take advantage of the fluid keyframed and motion captured animation that was now possible using 3D models. For example, in Virtua Fighter, a real martial artist was filmed performing the moves, and this movement was imposed on the 3D model in the game. Thus, while a punch in a 2D game might be a rapidly responding move with two frames of animation, a punch in a 3D game might have a delay between when the button was pressed and when the opponent was hit, owing to the realistic animation.
 

This delay however fundamentally changed the game play experience. Boon eventually decided to use the non realistic 2D rates of animation and movement, simply imposed onto 3D graphics. Thus the game play experience is nearly identical to the 2D versions of Mortal Kombat. While this was attempted before with the Street Fighter EX series, that series used more complex animation which did change the game play somewhat. Some critics however, were disappointed that Mortal Kombat 4 did not play like other popular 3D games of the time.

 

 

[Metal_Slayer]

I made a similar topic to this one a while ago, the reason I believe the reason why many of Doom sprites don't work is because they were at least partially drawn by hand, this resulted in the proportions "warping" if you look at them from different angles, but when they are low resolution sprites the effect isn't as apparent, there are also things like the unnatural movement and animations. The exception for this would be the the monsters made by taking scans of models, in this case, I believe it's fully possible to make them work, there are only a few problems, a lot of Doom maps weren't made with an realistic place as a base, for example, laboratories and military bases would have structures based mostly in 90 degrees angles and in the most functional way. The second problem is the fact that most modelers lack the time, effort and talent to make accurate representations in 3D, but for a person that has those three thing it's possible to do something really great stuff, the Hexen ELV project is a good example, most Hexen sprites are models made in a computer and virtually scanned, the scenery tries to mimic medieval structures and the people behind it are very talented. The other example is Gregor Punchatz, he freaking made the original models, so he knows what he's doing since he started remaking them.

 

[Herr Dethnout]

I think the major problem with 3D translations are the artistic aproach.

3D models tend to be or realistic and highly detailed or unpolished and amateur, combine that with how the engine works and the low res of the game itself, and got a big uncanny look.

Spoiler

 

 

 

The reason why the voxels work better is because it respect the artistic style of doom without feeling too disconected with the low res of the game.

I don't think is imposible to make a good 3D model pack, just look a the doomguy model from Q3

Spoiler

I think the best aproach to make a good 3D model pack for Doom is mimic the style of Quake (the first one), since the game is literally Doom with other name heh



PD: I'm surprised in a Doom 3D post nobody talked about DOOM 64, the majority of the assets are 3D Models, and looks great! (I know, those are actually sprites but are made with pre-rendered 3D models)

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Herr Dethnout

[Metal_Slayer]

I see, going for the examples you showed, the Pinky Demon's sides were based on a dinosaur toy, but the front was drawn by hand, this makes the model impossible to translate to 3D perfectly, the Cacodemon is similar in this regard, the front is based on a DnD illustration, but everything else was hand drawn, the Cacodemon not looking right was a problem the first version of the Voxel mod had, after that Cheello touched the bottom part to make it look better.

 It's totally possible to make the model based enemies to look right in 3D, the problem would be making them look right in a Doom enviroment with all of the other enemies, the HUD and map geometry.

The Hexen ELV project might be looking too much realistic for some people, but it can't be denied that the models do represent the original art very well. The same could be true for Doom 64, but there's simply not enough demand for Voxel Doom 64 or a 3D Doom 64, there is not enough fan content to justify that, and there aren't any true source ports of Doom 64 that could do that, I think both Doomsday and GZDoom remakes don't use the original files, the ones that do don't have any 3D model support.

Also, Doom enemies in Quake style already exist, in the Quake mod called "Your Path of Destruction".

Edited August 31, 2022 by Metal_Slayer

[out_of_service]

I've always liked the 3d Doom monsters/weapons/etc over that we've gotten over the years, wooden movement and all.

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Metal_Slayer said:

I see, going for the examples you showed, the Pinky Demon's sides were based on a dinosaur toy, but the front was drawn by hand, this makes the model impossible to translate to 3D perfectly, the Cacodemon is similar in this regard, the front is based on a DnD illustration, but everything else was hand drawn, the Cacodemon not looking right was a problem the first version of the Voxel mod had, after that Cheello touched the bottom part to make it look better.

 It's totally possible to make the model based enemies to look right in 3D, the problem would be making them look right in a Doom enviroment with all of the other enemies, the HUD and map geometry.

The Hexen ELV project might be looking too much realistic for some people, but it can't be denied that the models do represent the original art very well. The same could be true for Doom 64, but there's simply not enough demand for Voxel Doom 64 or a 3D Doom 64, there is not enough fan content to justify that, and there aren't any true source ports of Doom 64 that could do that, I think both Doomsday and GZDoom remakes don't use the original files, the ones that do don't have any 3D model support.

Also, Doom enemies in Quake style already exist, in the Quake mod called "Your Path of Destruction".

tbh, Making a Voxel Doom64 would be a big pain in the ass, and is probably that those highly detailed sprites doens't translate to Voxel very well.

About YPoD, That mod just translate Doom into Quake rather than mimic the style of Quake. And to be real, thoses model look a little high poly and pretty amateurish for Quake.

Just look the Super Shotgun from Quake compared to YPoD
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Like everything, it all comes down to talent, and this is a situation where quite a bit of talent (and time) is required. The amount of people in the community who have any knowledge whatsoever in regards to 3D modeling is nothing compared to the amount of mappers we have. So you already have a very small pool of potential candidates, and it's quite possible that none of them have the time/skill/interest required to make something above average. You always see requests for composers, or posts about how the community needs more of them, and creating a midi is something that can be learned in a day or two even if you have no previous knowledge. You can create something passable, or even good, without having any idea about what you're doing. 3D modeling is not like that. You aren't going to dick around for a couple hours and accidentally create something good. It's just a harder skill to learn, and a much harder skill to master, and it isn't something that is as subjective as music. It's something that people are going to actually look at and judge on a technical level, and if one person thinks it looks like dogshit, it's likely that the majority of people will agree. This only adds to the pressure and intimidation of taking on such a project.

Edited September 1, 2022 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Metal_Slayer]

Yeah, time is probably the biggest concern here, Punchatz posted that Mastermind video months ago and it's still just the raw model with no animation or colors, if it takes a lot of time to do Voxels, models made for UE5 must take an eternity.

Also, I think I should bring up that Voxels and 3D models could be used as a base for some really cool collectibles, we just need Bethesda Gear to be convinced it would sell.

[Herr Dethnout]

16 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

just need Bethesda Gear to be convinced it would sell.

That would be easy, just need to talk about the Romero's Head collectible in the Limited Run version of Sigil. heh

[BGreener]

I feel if I ran into some Doom inspired 3D models with quality matching Quake and Hexen 2 standards, I would find them favorable.  But I can’t recall any, certainly none that are as good as this new voxel pack. (I’ll admit a small part of me likes Risen3D’s super shotgun and accompanying animations).

 

Spoiler

The personal issue I’d run into, and that I still run into with the voxels, is how anachronistic they feel. It would be similar to having a Quake mod that turned everyone into very faithful sprites.

 

[Metal_Slayer]

I believe there's a mod called Doom3D that tries to make models in that style. And I think I have seen a port of Hexen 2's models to the first game.

As for the voxels they can't be 1:1 due to some sprites having different heights depending on the angle, unless it changed in real time.