Lots of monsters, Arenas, & You.

[forgettable pyromaniac]

How do people make levels with 200 or so monsters without it feeling like a slog? I can barely hit 80-90 while still having it be fun.

 

My first thought was arenas. Making Arenas never feels like they make sense, at least to me - when I make an arena, it never flows well enough to justify it being there, and having monsters teleport in is hard, I never understand  if im suppoused to be using tubes or merged sectors or walls lowering followed by a super quick teleport somewhere else - where should they appear? How should the Arena be set up? How should you be able to leave? What monsters should appear? I can never decide these things, and I don't know why - So I wanted to ask you guys for help. How do you all decide the parts of an arena? Any decent tips for making them? And also, detailing them without said detailing getting in the way, still can't figure that out either.

 

Thanks :)

[Lucius Wooding]

-More generally, making maps with high monster counts fun is all relative. 200 monsters can fit in a densely populated smaller map or a sprawling but mostly empty one. What really makes the monster count feel like a lot is if they're awkward to find or kill. High ledges with imps that you have to carefully snipe make the map drag, especially with heavier monsters. But add a couple barrels or give the player plenty of rockets, and they become convenient and fun to kill. A run and gun sequence in narrow hallways with hitscanners can be very slow to play through with low health. But place some health and supplies and the player can breeze through them. Obviously the faster the player can rack up kills, the less they'll notice the amount of monsters. That said, some amazing maps will demand the player to take it slow and whittle down threats carefully to make progress. Just be aware of the pacing compared to what you're going for. 

 

-Play more wads, pay attention to the cool fights and how they're done. Johnathan Swift said something to the effect of an author needs to read 100 books before they're qualified to write one, I think it applies to Doom 100%. There are WADs that answer your questions in completely opposite ways from one another but might both be fun. And don't be afraid to experiment, as long as you're willing to refine things later.

 

-It helps to open other people's maps in an editor sometimes if you really want details about the mechanics, but generally using Boom or more advanced ports gives you a lot more options to rig up fancy encounters. Boom has a number of great features like conveyors, voodoo doll shenanigans, and a wider array of specials and teleport types. Don't be afraid to use lots of little control sectors, you can always hide them on the map anyway. There is a bit more to learn about for advanced ports than vanilla/limit removing but there are lots of tutorials on both, Boom is only a little more complex than vanilla to learn IMO.

 

-Also, although I love making the terrain a bit hostile to the player, if you want encounters to be smoother and more fun, try and make the arena perfect for the player's weapons. Group up monsters, make them the proper level of bulk, and place them at a good range and heights for whatever tools you expect the player to use. This ties in with the previous point. Conversely if you want the player to get frustrated and make slow progress, make windows and ledges that block SSG pellets, rockets and plasma balls from hitting reliably, place monsters at stupidly long range and where they aren't visible without freelook, and deny the player a wide choice of weapons.

 

-Don't be afraid to spoil the player with rockets and cells at some point in the map, although the BFG is a big deal. This goes especially if you're placing a good bit of beefier monsters. Nobody wants to SSG 20 hell knights. If you balance for continuous then obviously take the next level into account.

 

-A big thing for me is not repeating the same fights too much, and not padding encounters out with duplicate monsters. If you're in a big empty room with revenants or hell knights, it won't matter much whether you put 4 or 40 of them. You just need to spam 10x more ammo for the latter while you circlestrafe. So if it's a simple fight don't be afraid to keep it small. 

 

-Make good use of archviles where they make things interesting. Even using them as a turret monster to deny space can completely change how you can move through a fight. Generally with big fights I think navigating the arena should be one of the most important things for you to think about as a mapper, since they'll likely spend a bit of time there. Doom's movement is exceptionally good and well crafted fights force the player to make good use of it. That includes restricting space, possibly having roaming monsters, and having pressure and obstacles as well as cover to consider.

 

-I also don't like to rely overly on teleporting monsters, although that's a question of mapping style. Or at least I like teleporting them from place to place on the map rather than from out of bounds in inaccessible monster closets. Having a little delay to react while stuff opens up gives you a lot better chance to respond properly compared to everything just suddenly spawning in, although the latter can be chaotic in a good way. Pop up monsters are ass though.

 

[IcarusOfDaggers]

It helps to use multiple ways to design a map. There are rooms that I design around a fight. There are also rooms I design architecturaly first.

 

The most important rule I can give you, is about human psychology. Ask for advice and read everything. Don't worry about remembering it. Once you start creating maps, you will use that knowledge subconciously.

Creative work is subconcious work. It can be guided, but it is still always automatic.

 

Also, in some arenas, having the detailing block the movement is a good thing.

 

General information out of the way, here is what I have found working so far.

======================

 

•  I found out that sticking to one map format or working on one map stifles creativity. So I map in multiple formats, preferring the format that is easiest to me. Basically, I always have at least 2 projects running at the same time (One is main focus, one is secondary, background or idea testing one).
• Second and third and fourth pair of eyes is always good.
• Video gameplays are even better, especially for flow tests. So if you can, record your own test play and analyze it.
• Texture and light usage is everything. Both can make fights fun or break them completely.
• Don't be afraid to use multiple set pieces that gradually lower/raise and reveal new enemies.
• Don't be afraid to keep things simple. A bunch of imps can be as fun to kill as a bunch of zombieman.
• Mapping format matters. Vanilla is more restrictive, Boom and GZDoom formats are far less restrictive in that regard.  But at the same time, every way you get monsters in to a fight, can be used in all formats.
• Spectres are underutilized and rarely as movement blockers in dark areas.
• When running out of ideas, ask for ideas or play other maps or other games.

Map building:

• Think of it, as an area. Don't think of it as an arena, but rather, as a hub for a particular place. A hub can be anything from mess hall and market place to command center or just a domed shelter.
• Assymmetry is just as important as symmetry. Use them interchangeably.
• Introduce strategy, story or nothing at all. Whatever you do, always have different fights.
• If you don't like it, save it somewhere else. Either you or someone else will find use for it later down the road.
• Detailing should always be part of the room design or combat design. It's rare for it to be both. It's common for it to be one or other.

Detailing:

• Can you see above the detail? No? Does not mean the enemy monster can't. Such details are good against projectiles.
• If monsters also can't see above it, then it's good against hitscan
• If You and Monsters see each other, then the height or gap makes all the use difference.
• If you use different lighting levels, then those levels will inevitably change fight dynamics, especially with dark monsters and dark light levels.
• A bumpy terrain can make a fight more difficult

Monster usage:

• Imps are good everywhere
• Hell knights work better on the ground
• Baron is an ammo sponge. Great with cyberdemons for infighting
• Arachnotrons are good for instigating infighting.
• Cacos are the big chungus of the sky
• Pain Elementals and Lost Souls are annoying and very dangerous.
• Arch Vile is the hitscan version of a revenant, with benefits.
• Revenant is great for turrets, but also works as a jump scare.
• Zombieman are dangerous in large quantities. They are also fun to gib.
• Shotgunners can blast you dead just by looking at them wrong
• Chain gunners are way more effective at punishing people for bad positioning, than turrets or snipers.
• Mastermind is just a fat chaingunner.
• Cyberdemon works everywhere...almost.
• Demons(Pinkies) and Spectres are good at cornering you, even in circular arenas.

My general design principle: Room first, fight second. But I mostly map for GZDoom, which is more architecture focused.

Edited September 9, 2022 by IcarusOfDaggers
Formating

[forgettable pyromaniac]

On 9/8/2022 at 7:41 PM, Lucius Wooding said:

-various

 

On 9/9/2022 at 11:43 AM, IcarusOfDaggers said:

It helps to use multiple ways to design a map. There are rooms that I design around a fight. There are also rooms I design architecturaly first.

Didn't let you guys know earlier but the both of these did legitimately help with figuring this out, thanks :)

[isthisnametaken]

Lucius and Icarus have both offered some solid advice and things to consider.  I love huge surprise assaults, and have found the best way is using the teleporter.

 

Start with your monster "pen"; Someplace away from the main map.  This is usually a set of hallways, with a lowering wall or door that allows the enemies to reach the teleporter.  (The rising floor is the fastest method I have found to make the teleporter accessible to enemies.)

 

Enemies will start the pursuit as soon as they hear you, so the pen needs to be connected by a tiny sound tunnel, or a split sector, from the main map.  

 

Enemies in pursuit will know where the player is, even without line of sight, so your monster pen must be far enough away that the teleport line will always be between the enemy and the player, and aimed in the right direction.  Just a little experimentation will show you how this works.

 

Set up multiple teleports and destinations in your arena.  This is done with the construction of the pen.  One big room and a single teleport will mean the enemies come in one at a time and randomly, wandering back and forth until they cross the line.  Several hallways with individual teleports will allow dozens of enemies to enter the arena at once for maximum surprise.

[Lucius Wooding]

2 hours ago, isthisnametaken said:

Enemies will start the pursuit as soon as they hear you, so the pen needs to be connected by a tiny sound tunnel, or a split sector, from the main map.  

 

To add to this, joined sectors have to use the same heights and properties for both but propagate sound as if they're connected. Or you can join an arena sector with a little control sector connected to the teleporter closet if you need more flexibility. This allows disconnected rooms to share sound propagation without needing a sound hole thingy. And then I think in advanced ports there are other options as well but certainly whatever works is fine too.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Lucius Wooding

[Stabbey]

I generally agree with much of what Lucius and Icarus said, although not necessarily the part about spoiling the player with cells. The Plasma Rifle is highly effective against every single enemy in the game, which makes it an "I Win" button if a high amount of ammo is supplied. I prefer to provide a trickle of cell ammo throughout my maps, instead of the huge gulps of Large Cell Pack ammo. I give the players enough to use, but not enough that they can exclusively use the Plasma Rifle.