How far did IdTech1 *officially* go in terms of features?

[jmpt16]

Now, I'm not talking about source ports like GZDoom or even Boom. I'm asking for all the features used in official, licensed Doom engine games (for the sake of completion, 5th gen console ports count).

I'm only adding the stuff I can remember/Google, feel free to correct or add more things.

- All the BSP stuff (every IdTech1 game ever)

- Colored lighting (Saturn/PSX Doom, Doom 64)

- High(er, relative to Doom 1 & 2) quality sprites (Doom 64)

- CD audio (Saturn/PSX Doom, Hexen)

- Class system (Hexen)

- Advanced scripting (Doom 64, Heretic, Hexen)

- "Y-scrolling" vertical mouselook (Heretic, Hexen)

- Parallax sky scrolling (Doom 64)

- Hubs (Hexen, Strife)

- Ambience (not the best word but you get it) improvements like fog, ambient sounds, sound triggers, translucency (Doom 64, Heretic, Hexen)

- Inventory system (Heretic, Hexen)

- Friendly, interactable NPCs (Strife)

- Moving/rotating walls (Hexen)

 

So, basically what I'm saying is someone could combine D64, Heretic/Hexen, and Strife for the ultimate 90's first-person-RPG (or is that just an im-sim?)

Edited September 11, 2022 by jmpt16

[Edward850]

Strife also had vertical look, voiced dialogue, sound environment objects such as alarms and bi-directional transparency (a single transparency map that could be used as either 33% or 66% intensity depending on the direction the renderer applied the effect, used for walls and the HUD), Inventory (both quest items and usable), and scripting depending on how you look at the conversation system for NPC interactions.

If you want to argue semantics, Strife also introduced lightmapping and wall/floor surface decals among other things added in the re-release.

 

Doom64's sprites are if anything the same quality as the rest of the games (and most of its textures are actually lower resolution but using UV mirroring tricks). They are just produced differently, 3d model renders instead of photos-turned-pixelart.

 

While Hexen introduced distinct classes, Heretic introduced the shadow of its concept in the form of the Morph Ovum which turned enemies/players into a chicken.

 

Hexen on the Nintendo 64 introduced splitscreen, though exactly how it was done is unknown. Doom later added support for this in the original Xbox port onwards via global instancing (and essentially was moved to C++ in the process).

Edited September 9, 2022 by Edward850

[thiccyosh]

Short answer: Yes.

 

Slightly short answer: If you have the talent of a madman going nuts and have enough time on your hands, you (probably) can build your ultimate 90's fps game.

[jmpt16]

45 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

If you want to argue semantics, Strife also introduced lightmapping and wall/floor surface decals.

 

Ah - that's cheating! I'm putting re-releases on the same level as source ports, for what are those re-releases if not custom made source ports? Plus, 2014 is well beyond the late 90's time gap where IdTech1 would be a legitimate choice.

 

also hi nightdive lol

[jmpt16]

51 minutes ago, thiccyosh said:

Short answer: Yes.

 

Slightly short answer: If you have the talent of a madman going nuts and have enough time on your hands, you (probably) can build your ultimate 90's fps game.

 

Slightly shorter answer: I don't know, CAN you?

[Metal_Slayer]

Here's a really obscure one: the Mac port of Hexen had higher resolution sprites scanned directly from the original renders.

And both Hexen and Doom 64 had some room-over-room action going, although in Doom 64 it was just an illusion.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Metal_Slayer

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, Metal_Slayer said:

And both Hexen and Doom 64 had some room-over-room action going, although in Doom 64 it was just an illusion.

Hexen had walkable things but sectors only had a single height, no room stacking. Doom 64 only had vanilla K2 bridges mixed with with some extra behaviour from the renderer that allowed it to keep rendering past a floor or ceiling (allowing it to mix in the fake bridge trick but better), but that was the only change.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Edward850

[jmpt16]

Did any official IdTech1 game have jumping?

[cambreaKer]

yeah, strife had jumping. i think hexen might've had that too but i haven't played that in a long while so i don't remember

[Edward850]

Strife and Hexen did. Heretic didn't have jumping but did have flying.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Edward850

[jmpt16]

46 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Hexen had walkable things but sectors only had a single height, no room stacking. Doom 64 only had vanilla K2 bridges with some extra behaviour from the renderer that allowed it to keep rendering past a floor or ceiling, but that was the only change.

 

So, just to check, none of the IdTech1 games had room-over-room? (read: "can I stand above and below this place?")

[eev]

Until source ports, no real room over room for idtech 1.

[Edward850]

Zilch.

[Herr Dethnout]

I think the Prime Example of how far can be pushed the IdTech1 by the time was Hexen and Strife

One for his primitive 3d features (Bridges, some RoR and Moving Doors/Wall)

And the other for his rpg mechanics along with voice acting (It's funny that Strife has voice acting but at the same time they stick with MIDI OST lol)

btw, Heretic has some GFX enhancements (Like the water splash in E1M1)

 

3 hours ago, jmpt16 said:

- Ambience (not the best word but you get it) improvements like fog, ambient sounds, sound trigggers, translucency (Doom 64, Heretic, Hexen)

I think the word you wanted is "Atmosphere"?

[jmpt16]

3 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

I think the word you wanted is "Atmosphere"?

 

Yep.

[eev]

Worth mentioning that features commonly associated with ZDOOM like MAPINFO, SNDINFO and polyobjects have their origin on Hexen, so I'd say Raven is probably the most important in giving these features to the idtech engine that ports could build on.

[jmpt16]

I was gonna ask how difficult would it be to add room-over-room to IdTech1 directly, without source ports, but at that point does that count as a modification or a source "port" baked into an IWAD?

 

I mean, if you took all the improvements from later games (vertical mouselook, jumping, all the atmosfere stuff, etc.) and put in into the Doom source code, would that count as a source port / remaster, or just a modified Doom?

Edited September 9, 2022 by jmpt16
Clarification

[eev]

The ACE engine is used to inject code directly into the game and get stuff to work, you can look at it here:

Hasn't been used to add room over room on anything yet but I think it should be possible, it'd just take a lot of time. It's like having a hack, a mod and a source port all in one, don't know if people still have a good idea of where to categorize it.

Edited September 9, 2022 by dusk-iv

[Herr Dethnout]

5 hours ago, jmpt16 said:

I was gonna ask how difficult would it be to add room-over-room to IdTech1 directly, without source ports, but at that point does that count as a modification or a source "port" baked into an IWAD?

I'm not a expert in this kind of things, but I think is difficult to implement judging games like Hexen or D64 that prefer to emulate it. Also, the vertical mouselook is pretty limited because how Doom rendering engine works (this also happen in modern sourceports with software rendering)

Though, is probably possible to implement in PSX Doom since it uses the PSX 3D Rendering (meaning that PSX Doom is "actually" 3D(?)

PS: PSX Doom has translucency and animated skies

Edited September 9, 2022 by Herr Dethnout

[jmpt16]

5 minutes ago, dusk-iv said:

The ACE engine is used to inject code directly into the game and get stuff to work, [...] It's like having a hack, a mod and a source port all in one, don't know if people still have a good idea of where to categorize it.

 

Yeah, but that's what I meant with my previous question. What's the difference between modifiying the source code directly, like Raven and Rouge did, or hacking it like this, other than - pardon the pun -  the hackiness of it all?

[rzh]

44 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Strife did. Heretic and Hexen didn't have jumping but they did have flying.

Hexen does have jumping though.

[eev]

2 minutes ago, jmpt16 said:

What's the difference between modifiying the source code directly, like Raven and Rouge did, or hacking it like this, other than - pardon the pun -  the hackiness of it all?

Simply that this can be put in a WAD instead and just let people load it up on their game, no need for another exe. Although source ports just wouldn't work with it at all and it takes a lot of work, so you gotta pick your audience.

[jmpt16]

Just now, Herr Dethnout said:

[...] I think is difficult to implement judging by games like Hexen or D64 that prefer to emulate it.

 

There is that, and also the map would be weird to follow.

 

1 minute ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Also, the vertical mouselook is pretty limited because how Doom rendering engine works (this also happen in modern sourceports with software rendering)

 

I am aware of that, but quite frankly, if I were to make that hypothetical game, in the 90's, with v-mouselook, I'd embrace it. Just another quirk of the engine.

Also, Build did that, so, not completely uncommon for the time.

[magicsofa]

2 hours ago, rzh said:

Hexen does have jumping though.

And with it, falling damage.

Also, Heretic was the first to have vertical shear looking, not Strife

Edited September 9, 2022 by magicsofa

[rzh]

8 hours ago, jmpt16 said:

So, basically what I'm saying is someone could combine D64, Heretic/Hexen, and Strife for the ultimate 90's first-person-RPG (or is that just an im-sim?)

If you lift some stuff from non-id games, you could make a really awesome game.

System Shock, Marathon and Build games specifically.

Or if someone had all the time in the world, they could make the most feature-rich source-port/ megawad combo.

You could have Hexen with 5D spaces and non-linear progression in addition to the hub system.

Or Doom with destructible environments, room over room, terminals and audio logs.

Screw it, steal Descent's movement as well, give Corvus a tomed firemace and have him carpet bomb D'Sparil's minions.

[Ludi]

Regarding Im-sims, HACX got closer than many give it credit for. Regardless of level design quality, the breakable objects, shattering glass, and interaction with the environment in a believable setting are still really novel. It's almost on the level of the Build Engine!

 

And the fact that it was done with little more than Doom 2's abilities as are, is borderline genius.

[SaladBadger]

for whatever it's worth, I need to make a test level to verify this (I wrote a level converter to convert the final level format into the alpha one, but it's a little annoying to get modern level editors to let you overlap sectors without being smart about it) but I think the alpha renderers would have allowed simple room over room. Kinda moot, since thing->thing collisions are in 2D so if there was a thing in the lower room it would block things in the upper room). The limitations otherwise would probably be similar to earlier Build games, like Duke Nukem 3D, where you can't see both the top and bottom of the stack at the same time.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

6 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

at the same time they stick with MIDI OST lol)

I'm sure I'll be corrected but I'm sure it was for disk space.

 

1 hour ago, Ludi said:

And the fact that it was done with little more than Doom 2's abilities as are, is borderline genius.

Most definitely but also keep in mind it had a dehacked patch to do that. Which, actually, that's more impressive.

[DannyMan]

Did the engine support audio formats more than just MIDI officially?

[Daytime Waitress]

9 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Hexen on the Nintendo 64 introduced splitscreen, though exactly how it was done is unknown.

 

Mind-blowing that after this long, something straight up refuses to cough up its secrets. Mind-blowing to a laywaitress, that is - I don't know how you folks who actually know how to code feel about it.