How far did IdTech1 *officially* go in terms of features?

[Edward850]

53 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Also, since Nightdive owns the Strife IP completely for a while now, it's also an "official" version.

And it's on the Nintendo Switch with a physical cartridge. Can't get more official than that. :P

[Rykzeon]

I'm quite sure the main difference of IdTech1 and IdTech 2 is how the world are rendered. IdTech1 uses pseudo 3D-rendering, while IdTech2 uses real 3D-rendering. Probably the programmers don't wanna make the developing time more longer, performance issues, or/and aesthatic issues. So they didn't implement things like Freelook, Jumping, Not Infinite-Tall Actors, Spherical Blast Damage (not cylinder, or actually, a square), Translucency, Slopes, etc in the original IdTech1 engine (Doom). I think I've read/watch somewhere that:

• They didn't implement Freelook feature because it's look stupid in their pseudo 3D-rendering engine;
• Infinitely-Tall Actors is meant to speed up performance because the hardware back then is quite shiet;
• These are based assumption, Translucency probably takes more processing time so they didn't implement it;
• Spherical blast damage takes more processing time too;
• Adding slopes into the engine isn't worth the time spent because stairs has similiar functionality and the main difference of slopes and stairs is aesthatic. Also, they don't have whole day to add a feature which can be easily replaced by stairs. So I'm pretty sure they used their remaining time to fix bugs;
• Jumping isn't implemented for same reason as Freelook and Slopes. Also, why they can implement Jumping while they can't implement things like Freelook and Slopes? Also Infinitely-Tall Actors will be greatly noticable;
• etc.

Pretty sure if they have more developing time and the end-user computers hardware are quite good back then, they'll add those features into the game. Proof? Heretic added Freelook and Not Infinite-Tall Actors (also Translucency), Hexen is enchancted Heretic engine (added Jumping and among other stuff), BUILD Engine has pseudo 3D-rendering yet it has Freelook, Jumping, Not Infinite-Tall Actors, Translucency, Slopes, etc.

[Gez]

12 hours ago, jmpt16 said:

Could slopes be added to the base IdTech1 engine?

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Slope

When you see that it exists in software-renderer ports (like Eternity, Odamex, and ZDoom in this instance), that shows that it could be plugged in the original engine without too much fuss.

 

You can browse through the various articles in the New_features category to see just about everything that was added to IdTech 1 by the other licensed games (Heretic, Hexen, Strife, and console ports), modernized re-releases, and source ports.

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, Rycuz said:

Infinitely-Tall Actors is meant to speed up performance because the hardware back then is quite shiet;

Actors are not infinitely tall in any version of Doom; projectiles and hitscans will pass over/under things, and the player can pass over pick-ups without collecting them.

However any two solid actors are explicitly forbidden from occupying the same Z position. This was to prevent introducing numerous movement edge cases, such as what to do if two actors are stacked on each other while the floor moves underneath, the physics would need to understand recursive movements.

 

Fun fact in Quake2, being between a raising platform and another entity will just crush you, even if that object could have hypothetically been moved.

 

1 hour ago, Rycuz said:

These are based assumption, Translucency probably takes more processing time so they didn't implement it;

True enough. It ends up eating a lot of CPU time on cache resetting and fetching, due to needing to read back from the frame buffer and lookup a transparency table. However as things go, transparency ain't that interesting. What's often overlooked and more interesting is the specter fuzz effect is refractive, and something no source port hardware renderer implements.

 

1 hour ago, Rycuz said:

Jumping isn't implemented for same reason as Freelook and Slopes. Also, why they can implement Jumping while they can't implement things like Freelook and Slopes? Also Infinitely-Tall Actors will be greatly noticable;

This was more likely just gameplay simplicity. Archvile jumping is already the same concept, but it's feedback against an attack. However player jumping would have added another control to the list and then have needed all maps built specifically with it in mind. Given they just got out of the mapping limitations of Wolf3D, that would have been too much to think about too quickly.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Edward850

[Dimon12321]

On 9/9/2022 at 5:22 PM, jmpt16 said:

I was gonna ask how difficult would it be to add room-over-room to IdTech1 directly, without source ports, but at that point does that count as a modification or a source "port" baked into an IWAD?

I think, source ports won't help that much. Even in GZDoom I've never seen actual room-over-room. If there's a wad, please share it.
 

Well, since every sector has upper, main and lower textures, respective flags and floor/ceiling values, then I guess we should duplicate it recursively for every extra room-over-room. As we know, level geometry doesn't exist below the floor and above the ceiling, so something more has to be done to the engine to make it render a rectangle peace of ground in the air and make sure all the Z-axis rules are obeyed, like you can go below it, step on it, fall off of it etc.

If all this is done, then we can at least make primitive buildings or staircases. 

 

If we want more, like completely different sectors one above another one, then some more workaround should be made, so the engine would understand right what pieces of overlapping sectors should have what properties. So has to be done in Doom Builder softwares. Maybe, in node builders too.

 

Will it be hard to implement all this? I guess so. Even though the source code is open, there are still questions being risen here and there, and we don't have much people who know the engine, let alone willing to modify it. I think they would have done it already if they had wish to do that. Now it looks like a non-accomplished idea that no-one feels like doing.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Dimon12321

[Rykzeon]

38 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Actors are not infinitely tall in any version of Doom; projectiles and hitscans will pass over/under things, and the player can pass over pick-ups without collecting them.

However any two solid actors are explicitly forbidden from occupying the same Z position. This was to prevent introducing numerous movement edge cases, such as what to do if two actors are stacked on each other while the floor moves underneath, the physics would need to understand recursive movements.

 

Fun fact in Quake2, being between a raising platform and another entity will just crush you, even if that object could have hypothetically been moved.

So (G)ZDoom lying to me. RIP.
Ok ok, so it's actually a misnomer.

Never played Quake2 before, is it worth a shot?

 

38 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

This was more likely just gameplay simplicity. Archvile jumping is already the same concept, but it's feedback against an attack. However player jumping would have added another control to the list and then have needed all maps built specifically with it in mind. Given they just got out of the mapping limitations of Wolf3D, that would have been too much to think about too quickly.

IMO, Archvile jumping is a exploitation of how archvile attack works. Most likely they didn't even think it and its unexpected thing. As they actually playtested their creation, and if they found something that can exploitable, they probably used it. E3M6 Mt Erebus is a good example, the intended way to enter the secret exit is you pick up the invulnerability sphere, then go the cliff near the secret exit, then do horizontal rocket jump. Then comes unintended way to enter the secret exit (SR40).

The most probable explanation is the same reason of why they implemented Infinitely-Tall Solid Actors, and given the players will curiously jump onto monsters' head (i.e for fun) if Jumping is implemented, they didn't add it.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Rycuz

[Gez]

46 minutes ago, Rycuz said:

Ok ok, so it's actually a misnomer.

You've got limited room. "Actors are infinitely tall" is much shorter than "actors have infinitely tall collision detection with other actors except projectiles".

 

50 minutes ago, Dimon12321 said:

I think, source ports won't help that much. Even in GZDoom I've never seen actual room-over-room. If there's a wad, please share it.

What's "actual room-over-room" for you, then?

Edited September 11, 2022 by Gez

[Dimon12321]

4 minutes ago, Gez said:

What's "actual room-over-room" for you, then?

Any other way than making line-like sectors that immediately lift up/down when the player is about to step on them.

[Andromeda]

56 minutes ago, Rycuz said:

E3M6 Mt Erebus is a good example, the intended way to enter the secret exit is you pick up the invulnerability sphere, then go the cliff near the secret exit, then do horizontal rocket jump. Then comes unintended way to enter the secret exit (SR40).

Funny thing is you don't even need SR40 for that, a regular running jump also works, but it's more precise.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Andromeda

[Rykzeon]

4 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Funny thing is you don't even need SR40 for that, a regular running jump also works, but it's more precise.

More funnier is, just press the secret exit switch from the outside. Yes, you can actually press the secret exit switch from the outside.
Apparently they found out that they can press the secret exit from the outside so they made the wall thicker. You know what's the real solution?
Just put dummy linedef action on the linedef so when they spam "use", it'll try to use the dummy linedef action instead trying to press the secret exit switch.

[Gez]

10 minutes ago, Dimon12321 said:

Any other way than making line-like sectors that immediately lift up/down when the player is about to step on them.

Well then you really need to play some ZDoom maps released in the last ten years... Blatant example.

 

[Metal_Slayer]

16 hours ago, Edward850 said:

And it's on the Nintendo Switch with a physical cartridge. Can't get more official than that. :P

If only people could get said physical cartridge, but it had to be released through LRG.

[Blzut3]

2 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

If only people could get said physical cartridge, but it had to be released through LRG.

The problem with that is what exactly?  Although they do occasionally do a truly limited release (which I find dumb), for a long time now they've been almost always doing open preorders giving people weeks (in this case about a month) to decide to buy if they want and printing however many needed to fill those orders.  Although I don't necessarily agree with the whole "we won't ever reprint" attitude of these companies, the reality is most of these games probably wouldn't sell enough to warrant multiple print runs.

 

I have a copy of the Strife cartridge, so people definitely have them.

[NiGHTMARE]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:49 AM, rzh said:

The only limitation that wasn't removed by the time Heretic came out was room over room. No vertical look and infinite height were deliberate choices.

And even then, it was definitely not impossible to do with the technology at the time. Marathon had room over room, and it launched less than a year later.

Descent not only had room over room and 6 axis of movement, but also polygon models and it came out before Hexen.

 

If we're talking about other game engines, then Ultima Underworld had bridges and slopes and that came out over a year and a half before Doom 1.

Edited September 12, 2022 by NiGHTMARE

[Metal_Slayer]

10 hours ago, Blzut3 said:

The problem with that is what exactly? 

Because not everyone lives in North America or Europe, and I have to import my games since they don't ship it overseas, and some people think it's not worth it for games that are always on sale digitally.

 

11 hours ago, Blzut3 said:

  Although I don't necessarily agree with the whole "we won't ever reprint" attitude of these companies, the reality is most of these games probably wouldn't sell enough to warrant multiple print runs.

 

I have a copy of the Strife cartridge, so people definitely have them.

 Ion Fury is a game that could be considered indie, but it got a full release instead of a limited one, and people can buy it to this day for the same price it released for or even lower. Limited games have at least 1000 copies made, a bunch of these get sold to "registered sellers" that wait until the pre-orders end so they can sell everything sealed for double the price or end up in a complete LRG collection that will be sold for a million or so in the future. So there must be around be around 500 people that own this cartridge and are actually playing the game.

I know physical games don't have the same appeal they used to have, but if they wanted to increase the value of these cartridges they could just put two games in one cartridge.

[Doomkid]

I know it’s probably utterly obvious to the point of not being worth mentioning.. But Doom also introduced non-orthogonal walls, a full texture-mapped environment, and a true Z axis with variable sector and actor heights. I only see “finer details” mentioned in the OP compared to these once big-ticket sales points, this was definitely the main stuff gaming mags and the like were gushing about :) It’s all the most crucial bits of the technological jump from Wolf3D!

 

On 9/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, Gez said:

You've got limited room. "Actors are infinitely tall" is much shorter than "actors have infinitely tall collision detection with other actors except projectiles".

Yeah, I just want to quote this for emphasis. Of course actors aren’t “literally” infinitely tall, but it is most certainly a common colloquialism that every Doomer who has been around for a year or more knows well. It’s accepted terminology.

[Edward850]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:54 AM, Gez said:

You've got limited room. "Actors are infinitely tall" is much shorter than "actors have infinitely tall collision detection with other actors except projectiles".

"Restricted collision behavior",

"Restricted vertical collision",

"Restricted vertical collisions between solid objects" if you have the screen space.

 

There's three options that aren't extremely misleading.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Edward850

[Gez]

Those are a lot less clear honestly.

[Edward850]

It's far better than it being objectively a lie. We should be designing this stuff with the assumption that not everybody on earth knows how Doom works, because obviously this thread and even the existence of this discussion proves that to be the case. Don't you get really sick of having to argue about if Doom has height? Because I sure as hell do, and ZDoom's compatibility misnomers are helping no one.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Edward850

[liPillON]

"walk over/under monsters" should make everyone happy, right?