Ask me something about one of these maps...

[baja blast rd.]

These are some of the maps I've thought about recently for any number of reasons.

 

"Don't Turn Your Back on the City" by Trashbang

Atmospheric Extinction map02: "Environmental Hostility" by Velvetic

Nova 3 map10: "A Partner of the 49th Day" by Nanka Kurashiki

Nova 3 map29: "Deep Space 9mm" by amok

DMP2015a map18: "The Dragon Rooms" by dt_

Ray Mohawk 2 map01: "Back Ashore!" by Doomkid

Scythe X map03: "Training Center" by Erik Alm

Hellbound map16: "City Bounds" by Z86

Stickney Installation e2m1: "Derelict" by Snaxalotl

Arrival map03: "Water Putrefier" by Pavera

Skulltiverse map29: "World's End" by 7Soul

"Alfonzo Tries to Prevent Donald Trump from Starting Third Impact" by AD_79

1000 Lines 3 map26: "A Trail of Scorched Earth" by RonnieJamesDiner

Speed of Doom map06: "Dreamscape" by Darkwave0000

"Heaven Stroll" by Roofi

 

I feel like trying a sampler type of discussion format. Try to ask a specific question, rather than "What do you think of this?" 

 

I started this to talk about maps myself, but any higher-effort responses and discussion are welcome. 

[Xyzzу]

If NOVA III MAP10 was an anime character, what would they look like? Describe it's personality, mannerisms, or DnD alignment through specific areas or fights in that map.

 

What do you think 1K Lines 3 MAP26 does to do so much with so little? What makes it a great example of a vanilla map that dresses for less?

[baja blast rd.]

27 minutes ago, Xyzzy01 said:

If NOVA III MAP10 was an anime character, what would they look like? Describe it's personality, mannerisms, or DnD alignment through specific areas or fights in that map.

 

She'd look like…

 

 

But she'd be pretty silly and light-hearted (with an explosive sense of humor). She has lots of mysteries about her past, and the more you find out about her, the more you love her. She plays organ pretty well and tends cows.

 

28 minutes ago, Xyzzy01 said:

What do you think 1K Lines 3 MAP26 does to do so much with so little? What makes it a great example of a vanilla map that dresses for less?

 

The first really important thing is an extremely well curated set of assets that can paint broad surfaces without looking bare or ugly. I mean look at the opening view: it looks really sexy, despite the fact that it's a long, simple two-layer expanse running for miles. It's lush vines and leaves, rugged bricks and rocks. Whenever possible, RJD seems to opt for the grittiest, most already detailed textures that are available in the theme. That allows the scale to be striking, both in its long expanses, and its verticality, without falling into bareness.

 

 

And as "two-layer" indicates, a lot of that is in the horizontal layering, which is smart from the opening bell (note how in the above vista, the brown rock looping around the lava sea visually coincides with the lower levels of the traversable structures, which is an elegant union). "A Trail of Scorched Earth" is really heavy on layer-cake design that (presumably) doesn't eat many visplanes yet breaks up its tall surfaces and looks very sophisticated. 

 

 

One "cheat" to visual sophistication is remembering to address what's going above the player -- the ceiling, or in this case sky, architecture. I've noticed a lot of drawn art going for grandeur will do this too -- use big arches that frame a scene. It's a complexity multiplier hack. A sky-set overhang mentally breaks up a scene into three parts: left, middle, right; or front, coincident with, and behind. 

 

 

There's also smart space reuse. A lot of progression is centered around the rising lift that goes up multiple tiers, porting in monsters each time. The OTEX scheme would paint the design as 'modern', but with the off-kilter shapes, and the dynamic architecture, this is a pretty oldschoolexual layout all things considered. 

 

The gameplay builds from smaller skirmishes that feel bigger than they are to larger high-octane brawls that go by quicker than you'd expect them to. Especially with the lava theme, it's not a coincidence that many of the smaller fights are set in narrow stripes of terrain, which are really efficient complements to monster threat. The idea is: a 800x800 box can be easily circled when it's not crammed by monsters or carefully placed turrets or doesn't have area denial mechanisms. A 1600x400 tract takes up the same area but now even monsters like pinkies, hell knights, imps, and cacos can easily corner the player. It is surprising the map only has 158 monsters because it feels more like 250+ with the big invasions near the end.

[Not Jabba]

3 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Atmospheric Extinction map02: "Environmental Hostility" by Velvetic

I think this is my favorite AE map, even though there are a few others (particularly 04 and 06) that have more grand and memorable scenes/ideas/battles in them. What made you pick this one specifically, rather than any other map in the set?

 

 

Quote

Skulltiverse map29: "World's End" by 7Soul"

This is clearly a map that was born to be in Boaty McBoatwad; I kept thinking about that when I played it. What made it decide to sneak into Skulltiverse instead, and if it is a secret agent, what is its mission?

 

 

Quote

Heaven Stroll" by Roofi

Isn't this map super cute?

[LadyMistDragon]

"Don't Turn Your Back on the City" by Trashbang. A map that had its strong points, but the best were probably the last section. The last slaughter section wasn't so challenging but quite enthralling. What do you like the best about this map?

 

 

"Hellbound: City Bounds" by Z86 I really liked Map 14 too, but this really nails down a certain city feel that many other maps never quite reached. Hellbound gets heat for its combat, but this is a case where everything just comes together into a well-organized and strategic stew. Is this one of your favorite Hellbound maps?

 

"Stickney Installation: EP2, M1" by Snaxalotl This map is dark, but nice and cute. Teleportation comes out far more logical and the midi choice complements this one just as much as it could. Am I missing why this one sticks with you

 

"Arrival: Water Putrefier" by Pavera The last map before things start becoming more stark, this packs in just as much as one could hope. Pavera's use of vanilla textures shines in a way unmatched until probably the last map. AD_79's midi has a really cool prog rock section that really goes with the flow. Typical Pavera Arch-vile usage invites some incredibly flexible strategies in at least 1 location. And the slime falls, here, omg. What can you say about this map's structure?

 

"A Trail of Scorched Earth" by RonnieJamesDiner. 1Kl3's top visual showcase. What would you say you enjoy the most about the map's experience?

 

"Heaven's Stroll" by Roofi - Like, the sort of maps he made for 180 Minutes Por Vivre are probably better in a number of ways, but I really wish he did more stuff like this! What detail stands out to you the most here?

[baja blast rd.]

Oh my god these are a lot of questions. I'll reply to some now and others will probably trickle in later. (Also I can only guarantee one question per poster. :P)

 

2 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

I think this is my favorite AE map, even though there are a few others (particularly 04 and 06) that have more grand and memorable scenes/ideas/battles in them. What made you pick this one specifically, rather than any other map in the set?

 

I revisited this one to study its material-based craft, all the layers and subtle use of shading in the design, the way the detail recurses on itself and still feels coherent. Despite being a higher-detail wad, Atmospheric Extinction follows many of the traditional principles of texture-as-detailing design, even down to its common use of "vertical strip + horizontal bar" patterns. 

 

 

 

One cool thing about the boat and harbor area is how I never found the secret in regular play, so it always felt like a big, extensive diorama to me that deepens the setting. Which is something maps can do -- design diorama as carefully and lovingly as they would an inhabited space. Outfit the spaces the player can't get to with stuff you can only see if you IDCLIP to it, not because you expect the player to IDCLIP to it, but maybe because that changes your mindset towards it and makes you care more about it, leading to better diorama spaces. 

 

My favorite AE map might be this or 03 or 04. Hard to say. I like my favorite maps in AE kind of evenly. (Not all of these are necessarily my favorite map from the respective set, but some are.)

 

1 hour ago, LadyMistDragon said:

"Stickney Installation: EP2, M1" by Snaxalotl This map is dark, but nice and cute. Teleportation comes out far more logical and the midi choice complements this one just as much as it could. Am I missing why this one sticks with you

 

 

For such a small map it does a good job of feeling like a lot more than it is, maybe because of the mysteriousness of the borders. I'm always on the lookout for maps like that, because understanding how to do that is one good way of combating any sprawl tendency.

 

The inversion (anti-gravity) stuff is cool too. I like how it's obscured by other sorts of world-fuckery, like maybe there's some time passing between the two realms, because not everything is simply inverted. Idk what's going on in this but it's neat.

 

 

 

Randomly, for some reason, this cacodemon roosting on a crate is really making me laugh. 

 

 

1 hour ago, LadyMistDragon said:

"Don't Turn Your Back on the City" by Trashbang. A map that had its strong points, but the best were probably the last section. The last slaughter section wasn't so challenging but quite enthralling. What do you like the best about this map?

 

Everything! 

 

 

 

 

Okay, if there's one tiny aspect that sticks with me the most, it's how good the details are at inviting you to ponder their histories. Like, let's take this small stretch of the map (which is why the pics will look the same ;)), these scratches on the surface clearly are a claw mark of blood, but what happened there? Was it a brutal fight involving one of the last human inhabitants of the hotel and some of the invading monsters -- did an imp (not coincidentally many of the inhabitants are now imps) lunge at someone and scratch them? Also the chandelier is pretty awesome. It's a world that is thrumming with the history of the old, not-fucked-up version of it, and the history of the fucking-up.

 

  

 

For a map that inhabits a small postcard scale so well, the last scene of the cyberdemon in its fleshy carapace, having overtaken the stretch of highway, is a pretty damn cool Big Scene. Author is kind of OP tbh.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

Isn't this map super cute?

 

1 hour ago, LadyMistDragon said:

"Heaven's Stroll" by Roofi - Like, the sort of maps he made for 180 Minutes Por Vivre are probably better in a number of ways, but I really wish he did more stuff like this! What detail stands out to you the most here?

 

Yes it's adorable. If I had to pick an individual 'detail', it would probably be either the saw -- which has a sound to it! -- or the secret "wardrobe" which does this really clever thing where the armor vests are clothing.

 

 

But to go a bit more broad, one thing I love is how good this map is at justifying its pseudo-3D designs. 3D design that feels a bit gratuitous by modern standards is sort of a hallmark of the HR2-era style that Roofi often emulates. It's often, like, STEPTOP bridges that seem glaringly unnecessary, and faux 3D just for the sake of it that is easily broken. But Roofi really emphasizes 3D-ness in the architecture in many spots long before those start coming in, like in this opening pathway.

 

 

 

There's also the intricate structure of the central house (very good job of using "fake" rooms and an unnecessary key (really cool motif) to make the house feel more sophisticated than actual geometry would allow). And the way he does all this, the 3D walkable structures and stuff now feel not gratuitous, but right at home.

[galileo31dos01]

6 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Hellbound map16: "City Bounds" by Z86

 

When thinking of Hellbound, the stretch of maps that most stick out to me, or usually first come to mind, is the city segment. This in particular has always been to me one of the most emblematic concepts within the genre of city maps, inside the subgenre of realistic -yet abstract- city maps, inside another sub-subgenre of corrupted city maps. I can think of so many memories and details from my first or second time but now I thought of something else: there're no vehicles! no cars set in fire, no overturned trucks, no man crying on the road because a mancubus sat on his lambo...

 

... and that's never been a missing detail for me, but one that wouldn't look out of place, so let me ask you: if you were to find a vehicle in the map, be it a car accident or whatever, where would it be? what would be a narrative for the situation? ... moreover, bonus question: would you find it fun to race in the highway or in the neighborhood with the monsters around? maybe it'd be interesting if you can run over some demons...

Edited September 14, 2022 by galileo31dos01

[Nefelibeta]

7 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Nova 3 map10: "A Partner of the 49th Day" by Nanka Kurashiki

What do you think of this kind of "relaxing slaughter" type of maps? What changes the most in the mapper's style in your opinion?

 

7 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Scythe X map03: "Training Center" by Erik Alm

What's your favourite aspect of Erik Alm's “low-tier only” techbase maps?

[Azure_Horror]

1000 Lines 3 map26: "A Trail of Scorched Earth" by RonnieJamesDiner

 

1) What do you think about the use of Scorch Terminators on this map? Did RonnieJamesDiner manage to find a good gameplay place for them?

 

2) Suppose that the Scorch Terminators would be replaced by Eviternity Annihilators. How would the map change?

 

2-a) Same as above, but suppose that Terminators are replaced with 180 Minutes Pour Vivre Nighwatch cacodemons?

2-b) Same, but suppose that Terminators are replaced with Roudy Rudy 2 Flamecacos?

2-c) Same, but suppose that Terminators are replaced with Valiant Supermancubi?

Edited September 14, 2022 by Azure_Horror

[Tarnsman]

Why should I have given "Alfonzo Tries to Prevent Donald Trump from Starting Third Impact" by AD_79 1st place instead of 2nd?

[Roofi]

 

How would you grade each of these maps? 

 

Oops, forgot to turn off the Francis mode (Just kidding heh)

 

 

Some questions about my map :

 

Would you wear one of the beautiful t-shirts whereas there is a hanging corpse next to them? I decided to add some secrets gory stuff in the laundry room.

 

Did you try walking on the rotating saw just to check if it does damage?

 

Were you frustrated by the absence of blue key since the only purpose of blue keyed doors consists to add pseudo-3d to the map ?

 

Did you find the biggest fights too mean compared to the map's atmosphere?

 

I'm happy you played and commented my map. I would love to own this type of bungalow one day, with corpses hidden in the laundry room.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Roofi

[baja blast rd.]

13 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

This is clearly a map that was born to be in Boaty McBoatwad; I kept thinking about that when I played it. What made it decide to sneak into Skulltiverse instead, and if it is a secret agent, what is its mission?

 

I never really thought of it that way but yeah this does feel very Mcboaty. Looking at it with this lens, the theme can be playfully read as a sort of a purgatory for boats that were very bad in the ocean, and as punishment are taken over by monsters for their battle games. (The boat with the two cyberdemons and the giant horde of other monsters would easily win.) 

 

If "World's End" were a sleeper agent, the idea would be to use the rest of Skulltiverse's last episode for this purpose too. In map26, a boat finds its way into the middle of the early "hub" area, serving as extra cover, or maybe every encounter has a boat that protects you (XYZZY crate style); in map27, a boat is summarily 'eaten' by those tower monstrosities; in map28, a canoe ends up in the library (maybe reading); in map30, nothing seems to be different, but then you notice the boss face icon has a pirate hat and an eyepatch.     

 

11 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

... and that's never been a missing detail for me, but one that wouldn't look out of place, so let me ask you: if you were to find a vehicle in the map, be it a car accident or whatever, where would it be? what would be a narrative for the situation? ... moreover, bonus question: would you find it fun to race in the highway or in the neighborhood with the monsters around? maybe it'd be interesting if you can run over some demons...

 

There are no vehicles yes, but have you noticed there are also only eight pain elementals, despite this being a pretty good map for them to harass the player (there are 100+ cacodemons though). Coincidence? No. 

 

 

There would be a car on the roof of something, the highest roof in the map.

 

The way I play this map is mostly semi-pacifist. The cinematic fights at the end on the destroyed highway look really cool and are a great vibe but I'm not about to kill every single monster, so that feels a lot like "racing in the highway with monsters around."  

[baja blast rd.]

2 hours ago, Tarnsman said:

Why should I have given "Alfonzo Tries to Prevent Donald Trump from Starting Third Impact" by AD_79 1st place instead of 2nd?

 

Both the winner (Breezeep's map) and second place (this one) are beautiful, in somewhat different but also heavily overlapping ways. Breezeep's might be the prettiest "garage base" I've ever seen, and the part where you descend into the ruby pools around the base is spectacular. 

 

What separates them in my mind is that the combat in "...Third Impact" is super dynamic. 

 

Like it's just constant potential for "expressive play" where I can improvise all sorts of fun, cool-feeling things to do, on top of the danger and sophistication of the actual setups. That is probably the thing that AD_79 is best as a mapper and the people he's influenced by tend not to do in anywhere near the same way. Like skillsaw's expressive play is more about groups and layout flow rather than individual monsters, and Tarnsman (if you're familiar with his work) tends to use more lethal setups that are all about microtactics for survival, but AD's in Violence and here focuses more on individual interactions between monsters in less dangerous setups. 

 

Here's a "demo" of the first half or so of the map to show I mean.

 

 

It also gets better on replay because there's no way I'd think to, or be bold enough to, do some of these things in first playthrough. Really helps that I sort of remember the composition of every encounter.

 

Which brings us into pt 2. For a long, sweeping adventure map, the areas are really well differentiated in game feel and look, which seems like a way it's building on TPH e3m5, which was more uniform even if it had cool moments (like the big fall into the fake-3D underground area, which I would have sworn was a 3D floor setup or something). 

 

"...Third Impact" manages to have a lot of [that moment] moments, especially the lift where the spoilerdemon shows up. 

 

All in all, really good map. I hope it gets a proper standalone release wink.  

[Alaxzandarz]

About Speed of Doom map06: "Dreamscape"

 

Why do you think this kind of aesthetic (nukage, silver, rock, darkness) has become so popular? There is the fact that there are some really well regarded maps in this style (people get inspired and make their own) and the style is possible to achieve with vanilla resourses (and the style isn't explored in IWADs so it sticks out). But is that all? I don't think there is another visual style that is this common (and recognizable) that doesn't come from Iwads. And why are there so many good maps in this style?

 

Also how do you feel about this map being the last map in the set with this style? Would you have preferred to see more maps like this or is SoDs diversity in style more interesting? I myself sorta founded it disapointing, but I do like a lot of the later levels.

[pavera]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:28 PM, baja blast rd. said:

Arrival map03: "Water Putrefier" by Pavera

 

Interested to hear what your recent thoughts on this map may have been, since I actually had a few false starts when trying to get the concept off the ground. I knew I wanted to do some sort of a water processing map, with long passages of flowing water that you run through, culminating in some sort of "putrefying" process, but I found it very hard to make it interesting. The setup that I finally came up with, where the blue floor lowers and becomes brown, was surprisingly hard to get working and required me to run a few DBX scripts to fix the ordering of the linedefs. That setup sorta came from the spur of the moment, rather than completely planned. What I had always envisioned was a more elaborate version of the crushers that you walk through down the watery pinky hall that switch the water to brown. Didn't turn out as cool as I wanted, but whatever :D

 

That map is also one of the few in the set where a considerable amount of it is completely optional. Almost all of the other maps require you to at least pass through every area in the map. Having lots of side exploration was actually one of my original goals for Arrival, but I guess that wasn't quite as achieved as I wanted. Looking back on this map, it actually seems like one of the least conversation-starting maps in the set, so I'm curious what about it had it on your mind?

[gudermannian function]

Regarding "Partner of 49th Day". Do you think there is some subplot in NOVA III in which you have to rescue Cacodemons from being used as raw material for Fireblu? Because same wad also has Fireblu Palace as Secret Map. And the final boss of whole megawad is a Cacoswarm. 

[baja blast rd.]

On 9/14/2022 at 6:18 AM, Azure_Horror said:

1000 Lines 3 map26: "A Trail of Scorched Earth" by RonnieJamesDiner

 

1) What do you think about the use of Scorch Terminators on this map? Did RonnieJamesDiner manage to find a good gameplay place for them?

 

2) Suppose that the Scorch Terminators would be replaced by Eviternity Annihilators. How would the map change?

 

2-a) Same as above, but suppose that Terminators are replaced with 180 Minutes Pour Vivre Nighwatch cacodemons?

2-b) Same, but suppose that Terminators are replaced with Roudy Rudy 2 Flamecacos?

2-c) Same, but suppose that Terminators are replaced with Valiant Supermancubi?

 

I enjoyed them. There are some fun close-range traps (especially the one where two pinch you in the lava gorge) and they are used well in larger spaces. And this is probably the 1000 Lines 3 map where monsters wandering into their corpses and being caught by their slow, repeated-explosion death sequence has the most potential gameplay relevance. (It's never a tactic you need to use, but it's really fun to exploit or watch happen. Luring a couple imps or a revenant into an exploding one and having the heat wave catch them.)

 

For such a big projectile-spitter, the scorch terminators are pretty restrained in their threat level (not too far away from a mancubus in my own perception), and fit in along the bestiary well. As much as I like a nutty projectile spammer (like the Eviternity meme cacos), I do appreciate the restraint here. They are very fun to use as infighting enforcers, getting one to nuke a bunch of other things for you. They are kind of like Barons of Fun. 

 

Hypothetically replacing them in "A Trail of Scorched Earth" with…

 

Eviternity Annihilators: This doesn't seem like it would work. The double-terminator fight in the lava gorge would become bonkers but these setups, when there are more than one of them, would simply devolve into making them infight each other.

 

180mpv Nighwatch cacodemons: This would probably be my favorite change if one had to be made. While playing, I'd be tempted to ditch the early ones and let them catch up with me for some later infighting on the upper levels of the layout. It would also be super amusing to get one of these infighting the relatively low number of monsters in the early fights too, zooming around a spitting waves of manc fireballs that melt a whole troop of imps quickly.

 

Rowdy Rudy 2 Flame Cacos: Flame Cacos feel the most similar in their threat profile to the terminators, just gaining increased mobility and giving up range. This means they don't really work in the big cacoswarm + terminator fight where the terminiators are released from long distance, but it might be super fun to replace all the cacos in that enormous swarm with the flame variant.  :>

 

Valiant Supermancubi: Actually a rare case where supermancubi would be consistently useful in a map not designed for them (assuming their teleport spots, wherever needed, are moved or spread out, to make up for their big hitbox and lower mobility). This is a lot because the scorch terminators here tend to be used in one of two roles -- close-range enforcers or long-distance projectile spewers -- which is where supermancubi can thrive.     

 

In "A Trail of Scorched Earth" I read the terminators as a balanced component of the map's threat -- meaning i don't think of the map as "that one with the dangerous terminators" -- and just about all of these monsters but the flame cacos are too dangerous to maintain that equilibrium. So in a subtle sense those might be the "best" replacement. But Nightwatch cacos would be the most fun. I'd consider all of these slight downgrade in one sense or another -- 1000 Lines 3 uses its own custom monsters very well, too well for wholesale swaps to be a buff.

[Nefelibeta]

On 9/15/2022 at 7:18 PM, Alaxzandarz said:

Why do you think this kind of aesthetic (nukage, silver, rock, darkness) has become so popular? There is the fact that there are some really well regarded maps in this style (people get inspired and make their own) and the style is possible to achieve with vanilla resourses (and the style isn't explored in IWADs so it sticks out). But is that all? I don't think there is another visual style that is this common (and recognizable) that doesn't come from Iwads. And why are there so many good maps in this style?

To be fair, due to the varieties of vanilla textures available, the mucus flow theme *might* be the best one without the need to overly-detail your maps.

Simple, likely only Death-Destiny and Darkwave0000 are the people who use this theme frequently, and they make cool maps.

 

Interestingly enough the entirety of Speed of Doom contains two major themes, the mucus flow and hell. Well stop trying to convince me that Darkwave is not Death-Destiny in disguise, this is obvious!

[baja blast rd.]

On 9/15/2022 at 7:18 AM, Alaxzandarz said:

About Speed of Doom map06: "Dreamscape"

 

Why do you think this kind of aesthetic (nukage, silver, rock, darkness) has become so popular? There is the fact that there are some really well regarded maps in this style (people get inspired and make their own) and the style is possible to achieve with vanilla resourses (and the style isn't explored in IWADs so it sticks out). But is that all? I don't think there is another visual style that is this common (and recognizable) that doesn't come from Iwads. And why are there so many good maps in this style?

 

Also how do you feel about this map being the last map in the set with this style? Would you have preferred to see more maps like this or is SoDs diversity in style more interesting? I myself sorta founded it disapointing, but I do like a lot of the later levels.

 

The look of Darkwave's early Speed of Doom maps is heavily inspired by the Mucus Flow by BPRD (and strains of other influences are present at times). This comes through in the overall vibe and look -- the ashy, mossy rocks and brown tech installation, all the mysteries, lots of smaller design motifs, the soothing but also eerie MIDIs, all the mysteries lurking just out of view. Relative to Mucus Flow, these maps are a substantial downscale, which is a rarer type of adaptation. Usually the move has been to take something and either preserve the size or make it bigger, like Resurgence does with parts of Scythe (/2). But downscaling is a good approach too! 

 

   

 

    

 

(Mucus Flow by B.P.R.D., Dreamscape by Darkwave0000, Elysion by Death-Destiny, Black Room by Paul977)

 

Then of course there was Death-Destiny, who slightly predated Darkwave0000, and also more modern-day mappers like Paul977 and tourniquet. So yeah there's been a lot in the style. Why has it been such a flexible canvas? 

 

I imagine what makes it tick, really, is that it's such a strongly defined look yet also wholly abstract and fictitious (unlike something like Misri Halek where Earthly signifiers like Egypt and even 'lava specifically in Egypt' are soft restrictions). So the assets (and scale) can be swapped out for something else without obscuring the path to the source. This emboldens people to find twists on it because they're not remaking just one map over and over again.

 

I also imagine part of why we're seeing it this way is that a Mucus Flow sort-of-homage, even when it's quite different from the source, is readily perceived as one, in a way that might not necessarily be true of other maps.  

 

Misri Halek for example, probably has to be Egyptian, but if you so much as replace lava with slime it doesn't feel as much like Misri Halek anymore. Want to "remake" a Mechadon map? It probably feels, well, like "a Mechadon map" rather than one in particular. Take lots of cues from Deus Vult and it might be perceptible in the form, but your copy of the theme itself would probably feel more like "this vaguely Alien Vendetta thing" or "this one scene from Deus Vult."  

 

But all the same, inspiration like that happens all the time, with a lot of great maps out there. It's just that Mucus Flow seems, more than most maps, harder to take direct inspiration from without feeling heavily like Mucus Flow. This speaks to Mucus Flow's rich set of motifs, like the stock-up areas, like the chaingunner turrets, like the small switches, and a lot more, that its identity persists even with pretty big change-ups to the look, for example in Darkwave's 3ha maps that don't really have extensive rocky regions. In a sense, it has a super high-fidelity fingerprint.

 

Even so, damn Darkwave's Speed of Doom maps have their own signature too -- his own way of interpreting and bottling the mysterious vibe of Mucus Flow. Like in Dreamscape (and Sedgemire before it) there are these secrets that are like sleepy interludes, like the little sidequest / puzzle for the secret backpack and of course secret BFG HK box.

 

In Speed of Doom, this style peaks in e1, but Sledge and The Core still have bits of it (with different priorities overall) and remnants are present even in maps like Hell's Honeycomb (with a completely different geometric look to it). 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 1:25 PM, Roofi said:

 

How would you grade each of these maps? 

 

Oops, forgot to turn off the Francis mode (Just kidding heh)

 

 

Some questions about my map :

 

Would you wear one of the beautiful t-shirts whereas there is a hanging corpse next to them? I decided to add some secrets gory stuff in the laundry room.

 

Did you try walking on the rotating saw just to check if it does damage?

 

Were you frustrated by the absence of blue key since the only purpose of blue keyed doors consists to add pseudo-3d to the map ?

 

Did you find the biggest fights too mean compared to the map's atmosphere?

 

I'm happy you played and commented my map. I would love to own this type of bungalow one day, with corpses hidden in the laundry room.

 

lol. I actually think all are in the B+ through A+ range.

 

I would pick the blue armor furthest away from the impaled zombieman. No offense, zombieman, but zombie blood stains are notoriously hard to clean up. 

 

I did not but I'm pleasantly surprised that it does. (I'm also laughing at the idea of wiring up an insta-kill voodoo doll action to this too.) 

 

My first playthrough was not for 100% kills and secrets do it didn't become relevant. I assumed the map had two secret keys the first time around. But then figured out that the other key must be redundant when I was looking through the map for the other secrets and that was a fun discovery!

The harsher fights were a good complement to the lighter combat, and also justified all the secret rewards. My favorite encounter was the one after the drop-off into the southwest corner. There's an archvile guarded by hell knights and barons, and along the other way, behind the tree, there are hell knights, pinkies, a revenant, and a pain elemental. So what I did is temporarily ignoring the archvile (focusing on the HKs to clear space, and the PE). When the vile pathed over to the tree, I dashed over to where it used to be, which was now an opened-up safe spot and focused it down. It's a micro fight with both unconventional prioritization and a big, arbitrary-seeming context switch -- which on their own can give people trouble, but looking for weird unintuitive approaches is part of my thought process for encounters so I didn't find it so rough.

[baja blast rd.]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:28 AM, Nefelibeta said:

What's your favourite aspect of Erik Alm's “low-tier only” techbase maps?

 

Okay, so normally I'm not a fan of when modern wads (outside of ones with a very not-gameplay focus) insist on extremely orthodox takes on the stock weapon progression of shotgun to BFG, zombieman to big monsters, but then do it in a really perfunctory way, going through the motions. The main reason a game would be really strict about escalation that way is to subtly teach you how to play; and there's also theming monsters and gear to settings. But when a wad goes through the motions, it often does neither, relying exclusively on "dramatic firsts," which sometimes don't feel that dramatic because we've played wads a bunch and know what a SSG is.

 

Besides, nothing says your universe has to have the same "progression" as Doom's. What if the plasma rifle is available early but ammo for it is scarce until later... That first big glimpse of two bulk cells before a clearly big fight will look as dramatic as any plasma rifle pickup. What if hell knights are mooks, spinkled around as close-quarters enforcers, but chaingunners are vicious and withheld until later... Generally, you can switch it up and feel as "progressiony" as you want.

 

Even as early Scythe X sticks to low-tier fodder and low difficulty, it feels like it's teaching us how to play with them, so the encounters are subtly thought out, like how in map01, the "point" of zombies is evident in their attempts to whittle down your HP; and a sergeant is first introduced as a bigger heavy-hitter, a sniper that forces you to contend with its attack instead of hoping for it to get meat-shielded by other monsters. There's the first scary chaingunner appearance in map02 at the end of that crusher hallway. map03 introduces spots where you want to use the rocket launcher and barrels against crowds. The concepts aren't really loud but they exist. And this justifies the standard progression. 

 

map03 in particular might be my favorite from a design standpoint. The rocket hurling is fun and feels substantial because there are only 86 monsters, so taking out like 4-5 of them with one rocket, gibbing them, makes you feel powerful, all the more if there's a heavy hitscanner among them that also makes it feel urgent. The Scythe X "tekgreen and black metal" abstraction remains the dominant design scheme, but there also some change-ups, like this adorable computer area with the bed at the back. I've always had a soft spot for this pillar area bathed in darkness. It's gorgeous. It's often good when maps that are going for that "uniform polished" look occasionally give you change-ups like this, which can be landmarks. 

 

 

 

[Tarnsman]

On 9/14/2022 at 11:15 AM, baja blast rd. said:

Tarnsman (if you're familiar with his work) tends to use more lethal setups that are all about microtactics for survival

 

That's an interesting assessment and I'm totally using "Microtactics for Survival" as a map name somewhere.

 

Talk about DMP2015a map18: "The Dragon Rooms" by dt_ because I don't know the map and it's the only map I haven't seen asked about yet.

[baja blast rd.]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:51 AM, Pavera said:

Interested to hear what your recent thoughts on this map may have been, since I actually had a few false starts when trying to get the concept off the ground. I knew I wanted to do some sort of a water processing map, with long passages of flowing water that you run through, culminating in some sort of "putrefying" process, but I found it very hard to make it interesting. The setup that I finally came up with, where the blue floor lowers and becomes brown, was surprisingly hard to get working and required me to run a few DBX scripts to fix the ordering of the linedefs. That setup sorta came from the spur of the moment, rather than completely planned. What I had always envisioned was a more elaborate version of the crushers that you walk through down the watery pinky hall that switch the water to brown. Didn't turn out as cool as I wanted, but whatever :D

 

That map is also one of the few in the set where a considerable amount of it is completely optional. Almost all of the other maps require you to at least pass through every area in the map. Having lots of side exploration was actually one of my original goals for Arrival, but I guess that wasn't quite as achieved as I wanted. Looking back on this map, it actually seems like one of the least conversation-starting maps in the set, so I'm curious what about it had it on your mind?

 

My favorite aspect might be the vibe of it, which...I really wouldn't expect. It's smooth and slick and 'sultry' (lol), but in a D2TWID-like map?! You might expect that more out of a modern OTEX map or something that traffics in '80s movie references or something that channels noir. A huge part of that is AD's MIDI, which I'm now thinking is my favorite in the soundtrack, but also the cool blue nighttime ambiance, and the loosely staged, intense-but-forgiving gameplay, are essential to it. At every turn there is an opportunity to do something cool -- and that feeds in to the vibe. 

 

Something I'm thinking about now is how layouts have many more unique features on top of the baseline structures. My favorites here would be: the up-and-over sequence (lift up, lift down) that eventually takes you to the yellow key path. The biiiig staircase that takes you down into the YK and its "putrefier." The way the start room transforms into the boss arena (the pillar and mastermind eat up so much space it's easy to initially miss that was the start room, and fun to realize, "Wait this is the start area right?"). And the little inescapable pit in front of the exit which foreshadows map04! That one is interesting because that sort of continuity is usually in the exit alone, which is normally true in Arrival, but here you have access to it not long after loading the map. It would be like playing a wad where map10 is a computer complex, and map11 is a theme shift to hell, and the whole part of the complex with the exit -- but nothing else -- is being overtaken by redrock and lava and flesh and SP_FACE and other hell stuff. You don't get why at first and then in the next map…oh yeah that makes sense. Maps having their identity supported by later maps. Cool imo.

 

  

 

I had an amusing thought that maybe you don't understand how good your gameplay in this set is if you agreed with Someone who said the wad was nothing exceptional. ;) It does "look" like "layout populated in post with fodder" sometimes. But 1) I'm of the mind that the smartness of gameplay is not only (or even primarily) 'signifiers' of smartness like almost every monster having a super efficient obvious role (which is overrated sometimes), but in gameplay's overall functioning, in groups of monsters, in overall feel, in fun -- and if the layout is strong enough to support and make largely incidental, concept-light combat and make that work, the wad still gets credit for "smart" monster use. And 2) I'm very much a "make your own fun" type of player. I consider it the player's duty to sort of at least try to get the most out of wad, assuming they vibe with it well and it doesn't rub them the wrong way somehow. So I usually turn down chances to camp and play safely and grind it out (except in a few dangerous parts), which I think would be less fun for me. I have emulated the need for a constant more cautious approach by replaying some parts keyboard-only since I am bad at that, and it seems Arrival's encounters work well in that capacity too. And 3) that type of monster placement seems like something that looks easier to do than it truly is. 

 

Speaking of the side exploration you mentioned, the optionality, where it exists, is great. I don't really spelunk in map08's lava parts, but knowing they are there makes the map feel a lot richer. In map06, a lot more seems optional than truly is optional, because I had this odd sense that areas were situated relative to one another the way optional areas typically are -- in unusual places, and cloaked in mystery and lightly hinted at as often as they are conveyed. (Case in point the region at the "back" of the player start.) That is the opposite effect and a neat one too.

 

It's surprising to hear "Water Putrefier" was concept-driven, because I would have assumed that most, if not all, Arrival maps were seeded by layout ideas. Just goes to show though that we can never really know the process behind something until asking, so it's always worth maintaining some agnosticism about that. I love concepts. I like overt ones…and also subtle ones that I did not immediately get. (This map…is the second type -- mostly because I did not think of what "putrefier" meant. Part of me reads names in D2TWID tech bases as "oh something that means 'processing' or 'facility' or 'outpost' lol.") But a fun thing about knowing the concept better is that the lava patch, 20% hurt floor, around the red key, in which there are scattered-out goodies that are probably not worth it, makes a lot more sense in an in-universe way. I was initially really confused about that, like it seemed random. But with the concept in mind, I go: oh yeah, the water is being fucked with somehow, so it probably happened here too maybe. 

 

 

Also this view is super pretty and the other day I started a small map that is sort of inspired by it. (It's not lit and detailed yet.)  

[AD_79]

On 9/14/2022 at 11:15 AM, baja blast rd. said:

All in all, really good map. I hope it gets a proper standalone release wink.

 

Consider it done eventually. I was wanting to make a few other maps with this sort of theme (something on the scale of Violence, with Third Impact thrown in as a bonus map?), but I may just finish it up and release it standalone. Thank you for the write-up by the way! It made me realize some things I do that I wasn't all that aware of, and that I should learn to consciously embrace more.

 

2 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

A huge part of that is AD's MIDI, which I'm now thinking is my favorite in the soundtrack

 

Interesting, it might be the only track in there that I'm not totally satisfied with. Glad to hear you get that much enjoyment out of it.

[pavera]

18 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

It's surprising to hear "Water Putrefier" was concept-driven, because I would have assumed that most, if not all, Arrival maps were seeded by layout ideas. Just goes to show though that we can never really know the process behind something until asking, so it's always worth maintaining some agnosticism about that. I love concepts. I like overt ones…and also subtle ones that I did not immediately get. (This map…is the second type -- mostly because I did not think of what "putrefier" meant. Part of me reads names in D2TWID tech bases as "oh something that means 'processing' or 'facility' or 'outpost' lol.") But a fun thing about knowing the concept better is that the lava patch, 20% hurt floor, around the red key, in which there are scattered-out goodies that are probably not worth it, makes a lot more sense in an in-universe way. I was initially really confused about that, like it seemed random. But with the concept in mind, I go: oh yeah, the water is being fucked with somehow, so it probably happened here too maybe.

 

Each map was a little bit of both. I had the overall theme and progression through those themes planned out in a little roadmap, with notes on broad themes that each map needed to achieve, etc. Of course that was less the case for MAP01 and 06, which were built well before the rest of the project started, but I still tried to build the other maps around them and tie them all into the overarching progression of the set. But I never actually planned any layouts ahead of time, or even texture themes (except knowing for a fact that MAP08 was going to be red hot), I just knew what vibe each map needed to have.

 

There's actually quite a bit of unwritten "lore" (more like my own headcanon) throughout my notes on each of these maps, tying them all together a little more. For instance, MAP02 is called "saltstone sanctuary" because it is literally supposed to be a homestead built into the sides of the salt canyon, that housed facility workers from the nearby waste abandonment facility (aka MAP01). I wanted the interior brick areas to be almost cozy looking, but abandoned, and then of course the plot twist is that behind the yellow key door you discover that the residents of the sanctuary may have been practicing some sorts of rituals, potentially leading to whatever the events of Arrival truly are. I was originally gonna do more with it, but ended up not, since I felt like the map was fun enough without more fluff. It's not really all fleshed out, but there are broad strokes I wanted to paint in each map that enterprising players could at least use to paint their own headcanon as to what it all means. Maybe it doesn't come across very well at all in the maps themselves, but either way, helped fuel my inspiration while working :D

 

18 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Also this view is super pretty and the other day I started a small map that is sort of inspired by it. (It's not lit and detailed yet.)

 

Really glad you appreciated that, I actually had to put some effort into getting that moon to line up perfectly with the gap in the cliffs there. I will have to check out your map when it's available!

[dt_]

Dragon rooms, wow that's gotta be an eight year old map now, takes me back a way.  I'd not long restarted doom mapping at that point, and was testing using an old source port with mouse look and no auto aim, wonder if this hampers some of the fights somewhat.

 

I also made that map with the intention of having the whole place flooded with arch viles after you'd cleared the place, hence the quite open layout; do you think I should have gone with that?  I struggled to find an original mechanic that would explain to the player what was about to happen, and found it easy to get cornered by them, so removed the whole scenario and added the end fight with the mastermind